Sexual Orientation and Military Service

[DuncanONeil]

If it is put in place by the General Staff it is not a law but a policy. ANd I suspect that in both countries it is a policy and not a law.

denuseri,

The thing that you have to remember is that the laws about gays in the forces of both the USA and GB were placed there many years ago. They were placed there not by the polititions, but the forces comanders themselves, all being at least Brigadeer upwards. They were made water tight by the military lawers, and what politition or high ranking commander is going to jepordise his / her career by trying to change tradition. I expect there are gays in both our armies, but it will be behind closed doors, and if it ever comes to the serface it will not be publisised in a court martial, because it never happened. Before i left the army in 1980 there was a case in my Regiment, the whole battalian knew about it, but the two men involved were secreted away back to the UK. The expected court martial never happened, they were both honerably discharged as soon as their feet touched the tarmac at Heathrow Airport.

Regards ian 2411

[IAN 2411]

If it is put in place by the General Staff it is not a law but a policy. ANd I suspect that in both countries it is a policy and not a law.

I hate to cotridict you on this one Duncan, but if ever you were charged in the army for any serious offence, including omosexual activities, it would come under Military Law. It is so binding that on a court martial of any sort in the UK, there has to be a QC for the defence. I had a freind that was charged with GBH under Military law, he had his own QC and the prosicution had a military lawer. When he lost his case, he served his first 30 days in a military prison at Coalchester, and then transfered to a civilian prison to serve the two years remaining before being dishonerably discharged.

Regards ian 2411

[DuncanONeil]

You are free to contradict. I still contend, and admit I am not familiar with the pertinent documents in British service, that here in the US the governing document for courts martial is the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Note that this is not a law per se in the US but a codification of other US laws in a form unique to the military.
As can be seen by; " Authority: E.O. 12473; 10 U.S.C. 47.

Source: 68 FR 36916, June 20, 2003, unless otherwise noted.


Sec. 152.1 Purpose.

This part:

[[Page 569]]

(a) Implements the requirement established by the President in
Executive Order 12473 that the Manual for Courts-Martial (MCM), United
States, 1984, and subsequent editions, be reviewed annually.
(b) Formalizes the Joint Service Committee (JSC) and defines the
roles, responsibilities, and procedures of the JSC in reviewing and
proposing changes to the MCM and proposing legislation to amend the
Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) (10 U.S.C., Chapter 47).
(c) Provides for the designation of a Secretary of a Military
Department to serve as the Executive Agent for the JSC.


Sec. 152.2 Applicability.

This part applies to the Office of the Secretary of Defense, the
Military Departments (including the Coast Guard by agreement with the
Department of Homeland Security when it is not operating as a Service of
the Department of the Navy), the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
the Combatant Commands, the Inspector General of the Department of
Defense, the Defense Agencies, the DoD Field Activities, and all other
organizational entities in the Department of Defense (hereafter
collectively referred to as ``the DoD Components'')."
This MCM and the UCMJ by extension are based on executive order and federal regulations. Which are also not laws, though grounded in them.

I hate to cotridict you on this one Duncan, but if ever you were charged in the army for any serious offence, including omosexual activities, it would come under Military Law. It is so binding that on a court martial of any sort in the UK, there has to be a QC for the defence. I had a freind that was charged with GBH under Military law, he had his own QC and the prosicution had a military lawer. When he lost his case, he served his first 30 days in a military prison at Coalchester, and then transfered to a civilian prison to serve the two years remaining before being dishonerably discharged.

Regards ian 2411

[IAN 2411]

Finally some progress from the pencil pushers in Washington.


From Dana Bash and Deirdre Walsh, CNN
Washington (CNN) - Congressional Democrats reached an agreement Monday with the White House and possibly the Pentagon on a key legislative step toward repealing the "don't ask, don't tell" policy that bars openly gay soldiers from the military.

US Senate votes to lift military gay ban

Politicians in America have voted to repeal the ban against gays serving openly in the US military and sent the measure to President Barack Obama for his signature.

The Senate voted 65-31 to end 17-year-old "don't ask, don't tell," policy. The US House of Representatives passed the bill earlier this week as lawmakers pushed to complete their work before the new Congress is seated in January.

"By ending 'don't ask, don't tell,' no longer will our nation be denied the service of thousands of patriotic Americans forced to leave the military, despite years of exemplary performance, because they happen to be gay. And no longer will many thousands more be asked to live a lie in order to serve the country they love," Obama said in a statement before the final vote.

Obama vowed during his 2008 presidential campaign to end the ban, which he denounced as unfair, unwise and a violation of basic human rights.

He had been criticised by liberal groups who said he had failed to push hard enough to end the policy.

More than 13,000 men and women have been expelled from the US military under "don't ask, don't tell," which allows gays to serve in the armed forces as long as they keep their sexual orientation secret. Many of those dismissed have said they hope to return to service.

****

Why was everything done so public as if fanfared? When the UK changed the rules of "Dont ask, Dont tell" no one knew of it not even the gays. It was never against British law to be gay in the forces after gays were given equal rights, it was only in the military book of regulations. However when the UK made that law the Military left the book of regulations shut tight.

Regards IAN 2411{lillirose}

[StrictMasterD]

No

[DuncanONeil]

That is not the same thing. There is no provision in the UCMJ prohibiting BEING homosexual. The "requirement" to separate a homosexual from service is a policy not a law.

I hate to cotridict you on this one Duncan, but if ever you were charged in the army for any serious offence, including omosexual activities, it would come under Military Law. It is so binding that on a court martial of any sort in the UK, there has to be a QC for the defence. I had a freind that was charged with GBH under Military law, he had his own QC and the prosicution had a military lawer. When he lost his case, he served his first 30 days in a military prison at Coalchester, and then transfered to a civilian prison to serve the two years remaining before being dishonerably discharged.

Regards ian 2411