Hell

[denuseri]

The point of having hevan and hell may just be to point out that duality exisits. Every coin has two sides so to speak.

You can believe or not in oh say the "wind" for instance as you wish, it makes no difference to the wind, it will still blow upon you all the same.


(though personally it would be refreshing for a change if while debating such things you would refrain from calling everyone;who doesnt believe exactly as you do, stupid, deluded, crazy or on drugs just once, I can assure you that just becuase one disagrees with anothers views on sprituality, it is not a foregone conclussion that they are in any way dimminished in their capacity for logical thought or incapable of being insulted by such sophistry)

[Thorne]

The point of having hevan and hell may just be to point out that duality exisits. Every coin has two sides so to speak.

That's a good explanation for the idea of heaven and hell, but not for the actuality.

You can believe or not in oh say the "wind" for instance as you wish, it makes no difference to the wind, it will still blow upon you all the same.

That's true, but it's true for everyone. You can see evidence for the wind all around you when it blows. You can record that evidence. Others can see it with you. And we have scientific explanations for what it is and what causes it.

But what if you were born in a glass bubble, never having experienced the wind, or rain, or any of the normal experiences of a human being. As you sit in your glass dome watching the world around you, one day you see that the trees are moving, and bushes and shrubs, and things are flying through the air. If you have no other means of determining what is causing such a disturbance it wouldn't be surprising if you decided that some unseen being was blowing those things around. After all, the only way you can feel a breeze is by blowing air through your mouth.

This is similar to how the idea of gods originated. Intelligent men and women who saw things happening in the world and didn't know how to explain them. So they invented powerful beings who did these things. And they needed to believe that these beings looked just like them, could walk among them. And they developed all kinds of stories about the world these beings lived in.

We know better now, of course. We know why the wind blows, why the lightning flashes, why the Earth trembles. We don't need gods to explain it any more. It's time we let them go.

[Thorne]

(though personally it would be refreshing for a change if while debating such things you would refrain from calling everyone;who doesnt believe exactly as you do, stupid, deluded, crazy or on drugs just once, I can assure you that just becuase one disagrees with anothers views on sprituality, it is not a foregone conclussion that they are in any way dimminished in their capacity for logical thought or incapable of being insulted by such sophistry)

This comment upsets me, denuseri. I've always tried to go out of my way to make sure I don't call people here names or try to denigrate them in any way. I've said repeatedly that people are free to believe what they want, I have no quarrel with that. And I most certainly don't consider them to be stupid because of their beliefs.

If someone talks to God she's praying, a devout person, perhaps a true believer. I might believe she was being silly but I wouldn't come right out and say it.

If someone tells me that God talks to him, I'm likely to believe he's deluded. I probably won't say it, but I'll think it. He may believe what he says, but that doesn't mean he's right. It doesn't mean I'm right either, but you can decide where you would place your bet.

If someone tells me that God not only talks to him but wants him to kill non-believers, I have to think he's crazy. And I'll say so. Loudly. To anyone who'll listen.

As for the drugs comment, which I believe is what may have set you off, I was referring to the practice of primitive "holy men" to fast for long periods, or to use mind-altering drugs, to stimulate visions which would fuel their belief in a spiritual world. It was in no way meant to imply that one had to be a drug-crazed loony to believe in such things. But let's face it: anyone who has read the Book of Revelations has to believe that John was using something pretty potent to have such visions. Or, like any good writer of fiction, he was making it up as he went along.

So I'm sorry if I implied any such things about anyone here. It's not my intention to belittle anyone for their beliefs. But if they profess those beliefs in an open forum they have to expect to be called on them. If your faith isn't strong enough to withstand such discussions, perhaps you should reexamine that faith.

I've spent my whole life letting people make outrageous claims without evidence. I've reached a point in my life now where I'm willing to stand up and call their bluffs. The world is getting crazy out there, and religious fanatics are among the craziest. Muslim crazies flying planes into buildings, or killing and maiming young girls for the "sin" of going to school; so-called Christian crazies picketing at the funerals of American soldiers; Christian leaders claiming that God is punishing the people of Haiti because their ancestors had the audacity to cast off the shackles of slavery; pedophiles hiding in the churches behind the robes of their leaders. The time for ignoring such nonsense is over. We have to fight these ideas, and these people. Or we'll all be dragged down into the darkness of fundamentalism.