Equality?

[denuseri]

Getting back to the main part of the topic:

The only way we will ever have any kind of society that approaches any kind of real equality is if we abandon capitalism all together on a world wide basis in favor of an entirely different system that isnt dependent upon greed to function and takes stringent means to curtail greed based coruption.

[Canyon]

Origionally posted by Thorne.
That is your choice, and you're certainly free to do as you see fit. I stand quietly and wait for the usually badly sung anthem to be finished. I have no need to publicly display my love of country by standing at attention, or saluting, or holding my hand over my heart. I certainly don't sing, out of respect for other people's ears.

With one exception where the singer may (I'll give her the benifit of the doubt, she may just be a truely horrible singer) have disrespected the song , then mocked the audience by spitting (at least thats what it looked like) when they showed her their displeasure, I can honestly say I've never heard the song sung badly, no matter how poor the singer. You should hear me try to hit that high note. Still love the song.

Origionally posted by steelish.
One of my duties every evening is to lower the flag at the Post Office and fold it. I do so with the utmost respect. I've had military personnel stop on the sidewalk outside and watch me take it down. I know they're just waiting to see if I let it touch the ground. I take pride in this simple task and am always grinning when they watch. I know how important it is to them. It's important to me also. That tight triangle with the field of blue showing on both sides is an honor to place in storage for a co-worker to raise the following day.

Thank you so much.

Origionally posted by steelish
You all may think I'm crazy for my patriotic feelings. You may think me strange to gaze at the flag, hand over heart when someone sings the National Anthem off key or tunelessly. Call me crazy. I don't care. I've never lost my love of my country.

Your not crazy. I hope you never lose that love for your country

[Kendal]

The biggest problem that faces everyone is misconception. Unless you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, you will not understand their point of view.

That the middle classes bear the brunt of taxation I agree. That they are taxed too much I agree, But they all too often talk about how they "work hard:" as if others do not. I was pointing out they are not the only people who work hard and life down the mines is (as the recent accident shows) hard work also, Yes I was being sarcastic when I said easy life down the mines. Was it not obvious?

Part of the miscommunciation here is our difference of understnding what the classes are. In UK manual (blue collar) workers were/are lower class. The term is consider demeaning today so now they are called lower middle class. The middle class is the foreman, junior manager, shopkeeper. The upper middle is the professionals - senior managers, doctors, lawyers etc. The upper class would be the directors and (large)company owners. Clearly UK is different from USA because the person pushing cages would be lower(middle) and the saying where to push those cages (supervisor/manager) would be middle. To translate my gripe into your company it would be like the Logistics Manager saying he works hard as if the cage pusher does not. I would have thought you would agreeing with me.

But still they were rulers in their own rights, and the king relied upon their support for his own rule. Without the barons' money and troops the king could not rule. All the barons did was to improve their own lots in life, without much direct benefit to the commoners

In terms of rights (eg Magna Carta) the ruler (king) ruled over the barons (ruled) and did not freely give those rights and much as we have loved could could not take back the rights he had given. The fact that the barons ruled the serfs is another situtation and the baron did not freely give the serfs rights, they fought for them be it through rebellion or petioning the king. The fact remains rights are rarely given freely they are won through battle.

The American Civil War was never about freeing the slaves. It was about the rights of the states to rule themselves.

Yes I know. I did not want to turn my post into a history class and said that for simplicity. The fact still remains the rights were not given, they were fought for. In this case they lost and with that defeat lost the rights.

No, the principles aren't necessarily wrong, but don't automatically blame the pilot, either.

Correct. And the principles or calculations may be wrong. The question is then when it comes to heavy taxation is the problem the principle of taxing higher earners more one we disagree with or is it simply that because of government overspending and inefficiency the tax burder is too high. I do not see the middle classes complaining when America spends zillions to invade other countries but they do complain when money goes to the have nots. I maintain that it is possible to help the less well off and lower taxes on the middle class simply by by efficient, not wasteful and not looking soley to taxation for revenue. There are other ways governments can earn money not just income tax.

The government screwed up the banks by deregulating and not monitoring them. How much taxpayer money went to bail outs and how many companies went broke. How much has iraq and Afghanistan cost - and you still haven't caught Bin Ladin or stopped terrorism.. That mispent money could have been saved, put into health and your taxes would probably still be the same.

I agree the middle class is over taxed. My gripe is how they point the finger at poor man saying "why should I pay for him" rather than pointing the finger at the rich politician and asking why are you making such a balls up of everything. To my mind money for heal sick americans is more noble than money for into the pockets of the userers or to drop bombs on people in a far off land.

[steelish]

That the middle classes bear the brunt of taxation I agree. That they are taxed too much I agree, But they all too often talk about how they "work hard:" as if others do not. I was pointing out they are not the only people who work hard and life down the mines is (as the recent accident shows) hard work also, Yes I was being sarcastic when I said easy life down the mines. Was it not obvious?

Oh, it was obvious, but you're analogy was not. Coal miners typically make almost $22.00 per hour, which is middle class wages.

Lower class are those who make minimum wage, or just barely over it. (Adults who are workers at McDonalds, or baggers at the grocery store, etc.) But no one thinks they don't work hard. The ones who don't work hard are the people who are capable of working yet have been on welfare for years. Those are the ones we complain about.

[SadisticNature]

Oh, it was obvious, but you're analogy was not. Coal miners typically make almost $22.00 per hour, which is middle class wages.

Lower class are those who make minimum wage, or just barely over it. (Adults who are workers at McDonalds, or baggers at the grocery store, etc.) But no one thinks they don't work hard. The ones who don't work hard are the people who are capable of working yet have been on welfare for years. Those are the ones we complain about.

Yet welfare is a program that is minimally abused, over 95% of welfare recipients are on the program for only a short period of time, only 5% are the chronic abusers you "complain" about. 95% of the people who use it need support while they look for a new job. I don't think the coal miner is lazy, and I don't begrudge him a few months on welfare after they close the coal mine.

If you want to scrap welfare how about we get rid of every program that has less than 95% efficiency first. Starting with all military technology spending, which just about never comes in on budget.

[DuncanONeil]

The Pattern of Dependence: Length of Time on Welfare

The public is often told that the current welfare system does not promote long-term dependence. According to this picture, AFDC generally provides temporary aid, and very few recipients receive welfare for extended periods. This picture is inaccurate.

Of the 4.7 million families currently receiving AFDC, most will be dependent on welfare for very long periods of time. As Chart 1 shows, families receiving AFDC at the present time have already spent, on average, six-and-a-half years enrolled in AFDC.1 When past receipt and estimated future receipt of AFDC are combined, the estimated average length of stay on AFDC among those families currently receiving AFDC benefits is an astounding 13 years.2 Moreover, these figures actually underestimate the length of welfare dependence, since such families are very likely to receive other welfare benefits (such as food stamps, SSI, Medicaid, and housing) even after they leave the AFDC caseload.
* The 4.7 million families currently receiving Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) have already spent, on average, six-and-a-half years on welfare.

* When past and estimated future receipt of AFDC are combined, the estimated average length of stay on AFDC, among those families currently receiving benefits, is an astonishing 13 years.

* Among the 4.7 million families currently receiving AFDC, over 90 percent will spend over two years on the AFDC caseload. More than three quarters will spend over five years on AFDC. The Heritage Foundation

Yet welfare is a program that is minimally abused, over 95% of welfare recipients are on the program for only a short period of time, only 5% are the chronic abusers you "complain" about. 95% of the people who use it need support while they look for a new job. I don't think the coal miner is lazy, and I don't begrudge him a few months on welfare after they close the coal mine.

If you want to scrap welfare how about we get rid of every program that has less than 95% efficiency first. Starting with all military technology spending, which just about never comes in on budget.

[Canyon]

The Pattern of Dependence: Length of Time on Welfare

* The 4.7 million families currently receiving Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) have already spent, on average, six-and-a-half years on welfare.

* When past and estimated future receipt of AFDC are combined, the estimated average length of stay on AFDC, among those families currently receiving benefits, is an astonishing 13 years.

* Among the 4.7 million families currently receiving AFDC, over 90 percent will spend over two years on the AFDC caseload. More than three quarters will spend over five years on AFDC. The Heritage Foundation

Is it any wonder we're losing a work ethic in so many homes. Children don't grow up to understand work because they don't see work. Sad. But, in a down ecomomy people cannot afford the taxation to carry others, yet often there is no job for the others to carry themselves with. Don't like either choice. I cannot see improvement unless we go back, create energy indepencence, become competative in the market, and get Government out of both the market place, and chairity business.

Yet there needs to be something. The years of happieness I shared with my wife were possible because of a transplant surgury we could never have afforded. SSI disability paid for it. I cannot want to completely remove a social safety net.

Maybe having the net, but making it uncomfortable would be a solution. For instance, instead of money to use in stores, a card, and limiting purchases to a very few (minimal) items. Instead of new apaartments with air conditioning, new fridges and washers, have simple barracks, wash racks and swamp coolers. Improvement of ones life is a powerful motivator to strive. However, possession of X-Box's, 60" TV's and the ever lengthing line of new cars and pickups, with dealer plates, at the unemployment and welfare offices seems to indicate to me there is no real incentive to try.

[DuncanONeil]

What would you like to suggest?

Getting back to the main part of the topic:

The only way we will ever have any kind of society that approaches any kind of real equality is if we abandon capitalism all together on a world wide basis in favor of an entirely different system that isnt dependent upon greed to function and takes stringent means to curtail greed based coruption.