Imigration

[Thorne]

I am of the opinion that there is no criteria that makes another group of people "less good", including criminal status. Evan a criminal is a human being, which is why we don't just chop off their heads like was done in the old days.

Once more, for clarification. I don't deny that criminals have rights. Just that they lose SOME rights as a result of their criminal acts, when they have been convicted and sent to prison.

So call them criminals if that makes you feel better; they are still not an "other", it is still wrong to ignore their miserable circumstances and try to justify why you deserve better than they do.

And another misrepresentation. When did I claim I "deserve" better than they do? All I've said was that they have committed criminal acts and, when convicted, should be punished for those commissions. I would expect to receive the same treatment if I committed a criminal act. How is that claiming I'm better?

We're feeding hungry children! Oh, the horror! Oh, right, they're someone else's children. Well let them starve, then, carry on.

I saw a letter the other day (I can't find it now, sorry) in which the Gov. of Arizona talked about these children. According to her they are receiving these meals because their parents have no DECLARED income, yet the children are far from starving (some are even overweight) and large quantities of this "free" food is discarded every day because they don't eat it!

But once more I'm being painted with the wrong brush. My concern is not that we are feeding these children, but that their parents are not putting into the system to help pay for it themselves! When my kids went to school they had to BUY their meals, or bring them from home, because OUR income was on the record. At the same time, my tax money was going towards feeding children whose parents were making at least as much as I was but NOT paying taxes on it.

Last time I checked, that was what an emergency room or clinic was for. You'd get help if you showed up in an emergency room...oh, wait, you get to stand on the "I'm more human than you are." line.

And again! It's not the services themselves that bother me. I fully agree with treating those who need treatment. But when it comes time to pay the piper, they provide false ID's, false addresses, false everything, and walk off. Meanwhile, you and I, who do pay our bills, are hit with inflated charges to cover these illegals. And the hospitals generally are not permitted to track them down.

1) Go to Europe. Almost every sign there is multi-lingual. Society has not fallen apart.

It's not doing too well, either.

2) The United States does not have an official language. And we shouldn't. Many countries have several prominant languages (like Canada is both English and French and a few others, I believe). They run just fine.

No, officially we do not have one language. But if you're a business person, try putting up a sign which says, "Spanish Not Spoken Here" and see what happens. This happened several years ago in Philadelphia, I believe. A man running a family-owned business in a neighborhood which was becoming increasingly Hispanic posted just such a sign, since neither he nor his family, who were his employees, spoke any Spanish. The city FORCED him to remove the sign and, if I remember correctly, post signs in Spanish, even though he could not speak the language. I just wonder what would have happened if he'd placed a sign claiming that ENGLISH was not spoken there. My guess is that it would have been all right.

Talk to some of them sometime, if you dare. Become friends with them, learn who they are. See if the ones who have been here for five months can speak English (could you?), who have been here for a year, who have been here for five years.

You're right, I don't know any Hispanics, legal or otherwise. I also don't know any Muslims, or Hindus, or Japanese, or Koreans, or even too many WASPs. I'm a private person and don't make friends. Or even acquaintances.

Maybe you'll even learn some of their language. Unless, of course, you think one language is better than another.

Between high school and college I studied Latin, French and Spanish, and I was terrible in all of them. I had enough trouble with English. And yes, for me, English is a better language. But only because it's the only one I know.

If things are wrong, fix them, change them. Maybe perfect world peace is an unreality, however; constantly striving towards it would be a necessary part of our humanity. To simply give up and say "Well, it's good enough." doesn't fly.

I never said it was good enough. But this is a nation, a civilization, of laws. And these laws should be obeyed UNTIL they've been changed. Ignoring laws you don't like only leads to anarchy.

[Jennifer Williams]

My concern is not that we are feeding these children, but that their parents are not putting into the system to help pay for it themselves!

Well if we allowed them to work legally in legal jobs, then they could put into the system. As it stands now, it's not allowed for them to work a legal job- it's illegal for them to put into the system! Don't make a law that says they can't put into the system and then complain that they're not putting into the system. It's a catch-22; fix one side or the other.

But when it comes time to pay the piper, they provide false ID's, false addresses, false everything, and walk off.

Um...let's see...why on earth would the provide false information...what would happen to them if they provided correct information? Might they be living in fear of being deported?

You're causing your own problem here. If they were allowed to stay, they'd have no reason to hide, no reason to lie.

No, officially we do not have one language. But if you're a business person, try putting up a sign which says, "Spanish Not Spoken Here" and see what happens.

If I was a business person, why on earth would I do this? Why would I prevent people with dollars from spending their money in my store? Most businesses have figured out that a dollar is a dollar, regardless of who's spending it, and so if they can market to both English and non-English speakers and get all of the dollars, they come out richer.

This happened several years ago in Philadelphia, I believe. A man running a family-owned business in a neighborhood which was becoming increasingly Hispanic

You say that like it's a bad thing, as if there's something wrong with Hispanic people. Or rather that they're fine, so long as they're not in his neighborhood.

posted just such a sign, since neither he nor his family, who were his employees, spoke any Spanish. The city FORCED him to remove the sign

They should have let him keep it up- the loss of business he received would have spoken for itself. Apparently dollars from people who speak Spanish are not good enough for him.

and, if I remember correctly, post signs in Spanish, even though he could not speak the language.

Oh no, the Spanish is going to get me! Help! Something different from me, ack, get it off, get it off!

I just wonder what would have happened if he'd placed a sign claiming that ENGLISH was not spoken there. My guess is that it would have been all right.

I would sincerely hope not. Discrimination is wrong, regardless of who it's directed at; and most business owners are smart enough not to alienate their customers.

You're right, I don't know any Hispanics, legal or otherwise.

Well that was obvious. It might do you better to think of them as "Hispanic people", though, not "Hispanics." Just a suggestion.

I also don't know any Muslims, or Hindus, or Japanese, or Koreans, or even too many WASPs. I'm a private person and don't make friends. Or even acquaintances.

Between high school and college I studied Latin, French and Spanish, and I was terrible in all of them. I had enough trouble with English. And yes, for me, English is a better language. But only because it's the only one I know.

And what if Spanish was the only language you knew? What if learning English was hard for you? And some kind soul thought to put up signs in your language, so you could know where the bathroom was? How is this a bad situation?

I never said it was good enough. But this is a nation, a civilization, of laws. And these laws should be obeyed UNTIL they've been changed. Ignoring laws you don't like only leads to anarchy.

Which is why we're trying to change the laws, for the better, not for worse, like this Arizona thing. That's why we're not standing for it; because it's wrong and can't be left to stand. It's not the solution to the problem. It won't solve anything; it will only create more fear and anger about the situation.

[Thorne]

It's a catch-22; fix one side or the other.

Silly me! I thought that's what the LAW was for!

Might they be living in fear of being deported?

Only if they are here ILLEGALLY!

You're causing your own problem here. If they were allowed to stay, they'd have no reason to hide, no reason to lie.

If they were LEGAL immigrants, they would be allowed to stay.

If I was a business person, why on earth would I do this? Why would I prevent people with dollars from spending their money in my store?

Why do you assume he was preventing anyone from shopping at his store? The only thing that sign says is that no on there speaks Spanish.

You say that like it's a bad thing, as if there's something wrong with Hispanic people. Or rather that they're fine, so long as they're not in his neighborhood.

Again, you're assuming a bias that is not evident. The neighborhood was becoming increasingly Hispanic, but no one in the store spoke any Spanish. He was simply informing his customers of that problem, not denying them goods or services.

They should have let him keep it up- the loss of business he received would have spoken for itself. Apparently dollars from people who speak Spanish are not good enough for him.

Still assuming his aim was to keep the Spanish speakers out. But even if it were so, if it is a privately owned business, shouldn't that be his choice?

Oh no, the Spanish is going to get me! Help! Something different from me, ack, get it off, get it off!

These reflexive assumptions of fear and hatred are becoming annoying. Stop putting words into my mouth, please. While it is possible that there was some intolerance going on in the man's mind, there's no proof of it. Why you insist on assuming it is beyond me.

The law says that a business cannot refuse service or goods to people because of the race, creed or color. It's a good law, one I support whole-heartedly. Informing people of a largely-Spanish speaking neighborhood that he doesn't speak Spanish does not violate that law. The same would apply if the neighborhood were largely Hungarian, or Swedish, or any other group. Placing signs in your store in the language of the neighborhood is obviously good business. But as far as I know it is not illegal NOT to place such signs. Nor should it be. As you said, if the locals don't feel welcome, it's the business owner who will suffer. That's his problem, not the government's.

Well that was obvious. It might do you better to think of them as "Hispanic people", though, not "Hispanics." Just a suggestion.

I don't care WHAT you want to call them. Hispanics is simply a convenient term I'm using for clarity. It has no discriminatory connotations that I know of.

And what if Spanish was the only language you knew? What if learning English was hard for you? And some kind soul thought to put up signs in your language, so you could know where the bathroom was? How is this a bad situation?

I would be grateful, naturally. But I wouldn't consider it discrimination if he did NOT put up such signs. I would, however, make damned sure I learned enough English to be able find the bathrooms, regardless of how difficult it was.

Which is why we're trying to change the laws, for the better, not for worse, like this Arizona thing. That's why we're not standing for it; because it's wrong and can't be left to stand.

As far as I can determine, this law only gives officials the ability to enforce EXISTING Federal statutes, which the Federal government has NOT been doing. As for whether the laws are bad, I still think that's a matter of opinion.

Oh, and one more thing. Just because I assume the role of Devil's Advocate, don't make the assumption that I'm the Devil himself. I'm not nearly that hot!

[DuncanONeil]

In response to Jennifer.
So the fact that there was a sign is somehow proof that the person is opposed to Hispanics?
At least people that come into the store will not try to conduct business in Spanish! What does it say that my closest chain supermarket has made it impossible for me to conduct business with the person employed behind the meat counter. I was incapable of ordering a specific cut of meat cut to my specification since the person behind the counter could not understand; "I'd like two pounds of sirloin cut in 1/4" slices." It took nearly three minutes just to get any kind of communication across and although I did get my meat, since I was able to point, I do not believe I was well served. This is just wrong. Add to that I have not one clue before actual contact that there would be any difficulty!
Hey? Does that mean that this meat cutting job was an illegal job?

[steelish]

And what if Spanish was the only language you knew? What if learning English was hard for you?

Sorry, but if you immigrate from Mexico and CHOOSE to live in the US, my opinion is that you should learn to speak English. My grandfather immigrated from Mexico in 1919 and FORBID family members to speak spanish. He insisted that being an American meant embracing every aspect of America, including the language. I understand being bilingual. No problem there. But simply not learning the language because it's "hard" to learn is ridiculous. Most corporations offer "speakers of another language" courses to empower their workforce. I know the company I used to work for did. As they transitioned over to computer-run machinery and everyone had to be English speaking the courses were continuously offered...and guess what, many chose to quit rather than even try.

It's absolutely ridiculous to choose to live in another country and then not learn the language. I understand it might take a while to learn it, but eventually immigrants should be able to speak English.

If you chose to move to France and lived in a region that spoke only french, would you learn the language? I know I would, or I would (at the least) continue trying to learn it until I was six feet under.

[DuncanONeil]

Again a false premise.
The job is not illegal, the worker IS.

Well if we allowed them to work legally in legal jobs, then they could put into the system. As it stands now, it's not allowed for them to work a legal job- it's illegal for them to put into the system! Don't make a law that says they can't put into the system and then complain that they're not putting into the system. It's a catch-22; fix one side or the other.



Um...let's see...why on earth would the provide false information...what would happen to them if they provided correct information? Might they be living in fear of being deported?

You're causing your own problem here. If they were allowed to stay, they'd have no reason to hide, no reason to lie.



If I was a business person, why on earth would I do this? Why would I prevent people with dollars from spending their money in my store? Most businesses have figured out that a dollar is a dollar, regardless of who's spending it, and so if they can market to both English and non-English speakers and get all of the dollars, they come out richer.

You say that like it's a bad thing, as if there's something wrong with Hispanic people. Or rather that they're fine, so long as they're not in his neighborhood.



They should have let him keep it up- the loss of business he received would have spoken for itself. Apparently dollars from people who speak Spanish are not good enough for him.



Oh no, the Spanish is going to get me! Help! Something different from me, ack, get it off, get it off!



I would sincerely hope not. Discrimination is wrong, regardless of who it's directed at; and most business owners are smart enough not to alienate their customers.


Well that was obvious. It might do you better to think of them as "Hispanic people", though, not "Hispanics." Just a suggestion.



And what if Spanish was the only language you knew? What if learning English was hard for you? And some kind soul thought to put up signs in your language, so you could know where the bathroom was? How is this a bad situation?



Which is why we're trying to change the laws, for the better, not for worse, like this Arizona thing. That's why we're not standing for it; because it's wrong and can't be left to stand. It's not the solution to the problem. It won't solve anything; it will only create more fear and anger about the situation.