Should corporal punishment in schools stay legal?

[IAN 2411]

http://www.care2.com/causes/educatio...ty-u-s-states/

This article points out that in twenty states corporal punishment in schools is legal. It argues that this is unsafe, while others argue that with the behaviour of children it is nessecary.

What do you think?

I remember when it was legal in the UK, because they were the days when all children under the age of 15 respected their elders. They respected their teachers and police priests and shop owners, the next door neighbour was called Mr or Mrs. Things have changed now the anti smacking people came and messed that right up, with their don’t hit your child it is assault, and right behind them come the police and the welfare people to take them into care. In care they are taught to look after themselves on the street, because the welfare said their parents never cared but then again their parents were never asked. I was punished with the cane and the slipper at school but I don’t think it did me harm, it upset me for that day but even then it gave you status in the school. Once you were home you got a crack around the back of the head for being a head ache to your parents but by ten that night it was all forgotten. It is not unsafe, it teaches respect and that is something that is lacking in young adults today, if you are not taught respect then you will never learn respect. I say three cheers to the twenty states in the USA where the school governors have still got their brains situated in their head.


Regards ian 2411

[Thorne]

I grew up in the Catholic school system and somehow managed to get through it, despite corporal punishment. Of course, the worst thing I can remember happening, aside from having my parents informed of any bad behavior, is having my knuckles rapped with a ruler.

But there is a difference between corporal punishment and abuse. Beating a child until they require medical treatment (or a funeral) is abuse, pure and simple. Striking anyone, much less a child, in the head is dangerous and educators who do that should be prosecuted.

Being the father of two boys, who seemed to get through their school years with less problems than I had, I feel that eliminating all corporal punishment is a mistake. It should never be done in anger, and should probably be administered by someone other than the teacher. But "punishing" a kid by giving them in-school suspension, or even at-home suspension, is just giving them a holiday from classes. It might be boring for them, but they're unlikely to learn from it.

Let's face it, sometimes you have to treat kids like the proverbial mule: a proverbial carrot can entice them to get moving, and sometimes a proverbial stick can encourage them to get moving, but sometimes you need the proverbial 2x4 between the eyes just to get their attention.

[thir]

But there is a difference between corporal punishment and abuse. Beating a child until they require medical treatment (or a funeral) is abuse, pure and simple. Striking anyone, much less a child, in the head is dangerous and educators who do that should be prosecuted.

Being the father of two boys, who seemed to get through their school years with less problems than I had, I feel that eliminating all corporal punishment is a mistake. It should never be done in anger, and should probably be administered by someone other than the teacher.
.

No, never in anger, which is not punishment, but violence - hence the damages. I too think others should be doing it, if it should be done.

Mind you, I do think teachers should get a lot more support that they get - I would not hold their job for all the tea in China.
There was a case her in UK with a teacher who struck a student with an exercise weight which gave the student a concussion. It turned out that a group of students had been goading him for weeks to make him loose his temper, so they could film it and show it to the girls. He got a conviction, I think a light one, but I never heard what happened to the students, which should definitly also be accused.

[DuncanONeil]

I remember those 13 years well. Depending on how you look at it my worst was an eraser in the eye, or getting kicked out of school.

I grew up in the Catholic school system and somehow managed to get through it, despite corporal punishment. Of course, the worst thing I can remember happening, aside from having my parents informed of any bad behavior, is having my knuckles rapped with a ruler.

But there is a difference between corporal punishment and abuse. Beating a child until they require medical treatment (or a funeral) is abuse, pure and simple. Striking anyone, much less a child, in the head is dangerous and educators who do that should be prosecuted.

Being the father of two boys, who seemed to get through their school years with less problems than I had, I feel that eliminating all corporal punishment is a mistake. It should never be done in anger, and should probably be administered by someone other than the teacher. But "punishing" a kid by giving them in-school suspension, or even at-home suspension, is just giving them a holiday from classes. It might be boring for them, but they're unlikely to learn from it.

Let's face it, sometimes you have to treat kids like the proverbial mule: a proverbial carrot can entice them to get moving, and sometimes a proverbial stick can encourage them to get moving, but sometimes you need the proverbial 2x4 between the eyes just to get their attention.

[thir]

I remember when it was legal in the UK, because they were the days when all children under the age of 15 respected their elders. They respected their teachers and police priests and shop owners, the next door neighbour was called Mr or Mrs. Things have changed now the anti smacking people came and messed that right up, with their don’t hit your child it is assault, and right behind them come the police and the welfare people to take them into care. In care they are taught to look after themselves on the street, because the welfare said their parents never cared but then again their parents were never asked. I was punished with the cane and the slipper at school but I don’t think it did me harm, it upset me for that day but even then it gave you status in the school. Once you were home you got a crack around the back of the head for being a head ache to your parents but by ten that night it was all forgotten. It is not unsafe, it teaches respect and that is something that is lacking in young adults today, if you are not taught respect then you will never learn respect. I say three cheers to the twenty states in the USA where the school governors have still got their brains situated in their head.


Regards ian 2411

I hear you. But what about safety?

"Consider a couple of examples: a high school coach in Georgia knocked a student's eyeball out of its socket to punish the student for fighting with another student. In Texas, a 14-year-old autistic special education student was smothered to death by his teacher's "restraint." The kid was placed face down on the floor and when he struggled, his teacher sat on his shoulders to keep him still. He sufficated to death."

For the first time in over 18 years, Congress held hearings in April, 2010, on the use of corporal punishment in schools, and this bill was the result of those hearings.

Here's what was revealed: every twenty seconds of the school day, a child is beaten by an educator. Every four minutes, an educator beats a child so badly that she seeks medical attention. The U.S. Department of Education reported that in the 2006 - 07 school year, 223,190 students were the victims of such school violence, and over 20,000 of these young people had to seek medical attention."

I am aware that student violence against teachers is also an safety issue, I think this is also mentioned in this article. But I wonder if you can fight violence with violence. Or whether security guards should be in here.

Teaching should not be about having to physically restrain or punish the students, that is also not fair and likely no what you were taught how to handle during your teacher's education.

What to do? About both safety issues

On a more general level: Is coporporal punisments really teaching respect?
As we say so often here, respect is earned, not demanded. So is respect learned by pain from someone bigger, or do you simply learn fear or hate?

A personal experience: I did not respect my teachers - many of them were incompetent or bad tempered. Some were darn good teachers, though, and that got my respect. There were a few sadists as well, and what they got was hate and fear, and, in me anyway, a lifelong scepticism of authority.

Maybe it would have worked, if the teachers were someone you could - respect.

[DuncanONeil]

That is easy! You want it safe? Codify the punishments. One of my Gym teachers used the hall pass to administer some punishments. I suspect they were actually faked, only from one personal instance.

I hear you. But what about safety?

"Consider a couple of examples: a high school coach in Georgia knocked a student's eyeball out of its socket to punish the student for fighting with another student. In Texas, a 14-year-old autistic special education student was smothered to death by his teacher's "restraint." The kid was placed face down on the floor and when he struggled, his teacher sat on his shoulders to keep him still. He sufficated to death."

For the first time in over 18 years, Congress held hearings in April, 2010, on the use of corporal punishment in schools, and this bill was the result of those hearings.

Here's what was revealed: every twenty seconds of the school day, a child is beaten by an educator. Every four minutes, an educator beats a child so badly that she seeks medical attention. The U.S. Department of Education reported that in the 2006 - 07 school year, 223,190 students were the victims of such school violence, and over 20,000 of these young people had to seek medical attention."

I am aware that student violence against teachers is also an safety issue, I think this is also mentioned in this article. But I wonder if you can fight violence with violence. Or whether security guards should be in here.

Teaching should not be about having to physically restrain or punish the students, that is also not fair and likely no what you were taught how to handle during your teacher's education.

What to do? About both safety issues

On a more general level: Is coporporal punisments really teaching respect?
As we say so often here, respect is earned, not demanded. So is respect learned by pain from someone bigger, or do you simply learn fear or hate?

A personal experience: I did not respect my teachers - many of them were incompetent or bad tempered. Some were darn good teachers, though, and that got my respect. There were a few sadists as well, and what they got was hate and fear, and, in me anyway, a lifelong scepticism of authority.

Maybe it would have worked, if the teachers were someone you could - respect.

[leo9]

I remember when it was legal in the UK, because they were the days when all children under the age of 15 respected their elders. They respected their teachers and police priests and shop owners, the next door neighbour was called Mr or Mrs.

And the summers were always sunny, and you could get a ticket for the flicks, a fish supper and a couple of pints and still have change from a shilling.

Meanwhile back in the real world, researchers for the past fifty years have been looking at actual figures and getting the same answer: the level of violent crime, and youth violence in particular, has been falling steadily in both Europe and America. (The change is probably more than the figures show, because in those Good Old Days, things that would nowadays involve the police were often settled by going round to tell someone's parents to take a belt to the offender: so there's a reporting bias in the other direction.)

And the other thing they consistently find is that violent crime is usually committed by people who were physically punished as children. As families with such childrearing practices have become more of a visible minority, it's become more evident that they are raising the next generation of criminals.

But of course this is just facts, and I don't expect it to change your beliefs.

Things have changed now the anti smacking people came and messed that right up, with their don’t hit your child it is assault, and right behind them come the police and the welfare people to take them into care. In care they are taught to look after themselves on the street, because the welfare said their parents never cared but then again their parents were never asked.

Since I know a fair bit at first hand about the care system, I'd comment on this if I could make out what you're saying.

I was punished with the cane and the slipper at school but I don’t think it did me harm

That classic line is a very dangerous one, it invites the sort of comment the moderators would object to

, it upset me for that day but even then it gave you status in the school. Once you were home you got a crack around the back of the head for being a head ache to your parents but by ten that night it was all forgotten. It is not unsafe, it teaches respect and that is something that is lacking in young adults today, if you are not taught respect then you will never learn respect.

I went to a school that didn't use physical punishment even when they were still allowed to. We respected the teachers because they were good teachers, not because they might thump us. The only teacher we really didn't respect was one who came in as a substitute from the local grammar school for a couple of terms: he had no idea how to deal with kids he couldn't threaten with violence. As many other posters have said, anyone who can't teach without physical punishment is a bad teacher.

[DuncanONeil]

And the other thing they consistently find is that violent crime is usually committed by people who were physically punished as children. As families with such childrearing practices have become more of a visible minority, it's become more evident that they are raising the next generation of criminals.

Then according to this I should be a criminal!! Hell, by most people's estimation I apparently was abused in school as well!

[DuncanONeil]

Meanwhile back in the real world, researchers for the past fifty years have been looking at actual figures and getting the same answer: the level of violent crime, and youth violence in particular, has been falling steadily in both Europe and America.

Then could you tell me how in total crime the UK is ranked 6th, with a rate of 85.5517 crimes per 1000 people?

[leo9]

I remember when it was legal in the UK, because they were the days when all children under the age of 15 respected their elders. They respected their teachers and police priests and shop owners, the next door neighbour was called Mr or Mrs.

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, 8th century BC).

Sorry, I just came across that quote and couldn't resist sharing it...