U.s. Founding fathers

[steelish]

If it's not an act of worship, then we shouldn't have any problem with removing the phrase, "under God." Or maybe we can change it to "under Allah" or "under Shiva" or "under Zeus". Each week we could change the term so that all religions were included. Think the Christian right would go for that? After all, it's not an act of worship, for crying out loud!

Teaching our kids to place their hands over their hearts and recite the pledge is no different than teaching them to make the sign of the cross and recite the Lord's Prayer. It's a blatant act of worship. It only differs in who, or what, you are worshiping.

lol. "Under God" can mean anything to anyone. To a Native American it might be Nature itself, to another, it might be Jehovah to yet another it might be Buddah. It makes no difference so long as your faith promotes goodness and generosity to your fellow man.

[Thorne]

lol. "Under God" can mean anything to anyone. To a Native American it might be Nature itself, to another, it might be Jehovah to yet another it might be Buddah.

And to an atheist it's simply paying homage to a magic man (or woman) in the sky. It has no basis in reality, and it would be just as valid to declare the US to be one nation under leprechauns.

It makes no difference so long as your faith promotes goodness and generosity to your fellow man.

And that can be done without forcing said faith down the throats of everyone else in the country. Faith is a personal experience, not a community requirement. And while I can see plenty of good and generous people of faith around, I have seen damned few religions which are good and generous to anyone other than their own kind. And religions tend to use people's faiths to turn them against those who are different.

[steelish]

And to an atheist it's simply paying homage to a magic man (or woman) in the sky. It has no basis in reality, and it would be just as valid to declare the US to be one nation under leprechauns.

If those leprechauns are what creates your sense of humanity and decency, then go for it.

And that can be done without forcing said faith down the throats of everyone else in the country. Faith is a personal experience, not a community requirement. And while I can see plenty of good and generous people of faith around, I have seen damned few religions which are good and generous to anyone other than their own kind. And religions tend to use people's faiths to turn them against those who are different.

I agree. I do not follow any organized religion. I do, however, believe there is a greater force at work; whether it is nature itself or God. That being said, I do not find the Pledge of Allegiance to be offensive. Simply saying it does not make me a bad person. Nor does it make the person standing next to me a bad person.

[Thorne]

If those leprechauns are what creates your sense of humanity and decency, then go for it.

No, what creates my sense of humanity and decency is my inborn sense of humanity and decency. I believe in the Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If I allowed myself to behave inhumanely towards others then, in all honesty, I would have to admit that it was all right for them to behave inhumanely towards me. The idea that morality comes from some super-faerie has been thoroughly falsified.

I do, however, believe there is a greater force at work; whether it is nature itself or God.

That is faith, a personal thing, and everyone is entitled to have their beliefs. That does not necessarily mean that what you believe in is true for anyone but you.

That being said, I do not find the Pledge of Allegiance to be offensive. Simply saying it does not make me a bad person. Nor does it make the person standing next to me a bad person.

I'm not implying that it does. And I don't find it offensive either. I just find the idea of pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth to be rather silly.

[steelish]

I'm not implying that it does. And I don't find it offensive either. I just find the idea of pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth to be rather silly.

The Pledge of Allegiance is to the United States of America...NOT a piece of cloth. The "piece of cloth" is symbolic of the U.S.

[Thorne]

The Pledge of Allegiance is to the United States of America...NOT a piece of cloth. The "piece of cloth" is symbolic of the U.S.

Actually it's to both. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands...."

And I agree, it is a symbol. An effigy. It's not a holy relic, it's a piece of cloth. It can have many meanings to many different people. To a soldier in battle it may be a sign of pride and courage. To a frightened tourist overseas it can be a sign of safety and acceptance. To an enemy soldier it is a sign of evil and hatred. But regardless, it is still just a piece of cloth, and I do not owe it any allegiance. To the nation, yes. To the leaders, perhaps, if they have earned it. (Not so much, lately.) But to the flag? Sorry, no.

[steelish]

Actually it's to both. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands...."

And I agree, it is a symbol. An effigy. It's not a holy relic, it's a piece of cloth. It can have many meanings to many different people. To a soldier in battle it may be a sign of pride and courage. To a frightened tourist overseas it can be a sign of safety and acceptance. To an enemy soldier it is a sign of evil and hatred. But regardless, it is still just a piece of cloth, and I do not owe it any allegiance. To the nation, yes. To the leaders, perhaps, if they have earned it. (Not so much, lately.) But to the flag? Sorry, no.

But you just admitted the flag is a symbol (and not a holy symbol). A symbol of safety and acceptance. A symbol of pride and courage. A symbol (to the enemy) of evil and hatred. But you do not say what it symbolizes to you. What does it symbolize that generates such apathy?

[steelish]

Actually it's to both. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands...."

Why didn't you embolden and to the Republic for which it stands? That is quite important.

[DuncanONeil]

And to an atheist it's simply paying homage to a magic man (or woman) in the sky. It has no basis in reality, and it would be just as valid to declare the US to be one nation under leprechauns.

Only if you say it!