Book Burning

[MMI]

Science will always be too limited, since science studies the natural world, not a supernatural one. In the supernatural world, anyone can make up anything they happen to think of and claim it to be true, simply because no one can prove them wrong. In the natural world, you must provide evidence, testable evidence, for your claims.

You have responded to my other points in detail, Thorne, and while I personally do agree with your sentiments in general, I still think you have missed the point, and because of that, you persist in your Quixotic tilting at religious windmills. Gods are, or are believed to be, supernatural. That means that any attempt to restrict them to the narrow confines of the physical universe, to the laws of nature, or within the boundaries of the real world is doomed to failure, and any sensible person, once he realises this, will accept that it is impossible and futile to continue to try to define god in earthly terms.

That, really, answers your objections as to proving the existence of gods or otherwise completely.

Gee. I never get compliments like that!

It is a rare event when I do, too, and for that reason, it is a greatly appreciated one. Thank-you den

I AM accepting and tolerant! Until they start trying to force their beliefs on me, or anyone else. Until they start using those beliefs to justify the harm they do to others. Until they refuse to accept and tolerate my LACK of belief!

I have never seen on this site any attempts to force you or anyone else to believe in a god or gods in general. I have also never seen any attacks on atheism as vehement and as zealous as I have seen atheists proclaim the righteousness of their views above those of anyone else, based on their limited scientific viewpoints as we have just seen.

Your freedom to believe that this is as good as it gets is under no threat from anyone here. I wonder if you have chosen the wrong forum to proselytise on behalf of your creed of emptiness.

Why is that neccesary?

What I mean is, why is it so important to prove that god does not exist?

Excellent question. I don't think it is at all necessary, other than for intellectual exercise. The people Thorne blames religion for making evil would be just as bad without religion. They'd probably tie their colours to one political mast or another instead - as so many others do already.

[MMI]

I don't think it is at all necessary, other than for intellectual exercise.

I've just mulled that over for a bit. Since the pro-god side says, You can't prove God exists, because that is beyond proof, and the anti-god side says, You can't prove God doesn't exist because you can't reduce the supposed nature of God into scientific terms, I wonder if any attempt to prove or disprove God is more an exercise in foolishness than an intellectual exercise.

[Thorne]

I've just mulled that over for a bit. Since the pro-god side says, You can't prove God exists, because that is beyond proof, and the anti-god side says, You can't prove God doesn't exist because you can't reduce the supposed nature of God into scientific terms, I wonder if any attempt to prove or disprove God is more an exercise in foolishness than an intellectual exercise.

Perhaps you are right. And if religion were not so pervasive, here in the US far more than in the UK as I understand it, I might agree that it is foolishness. But as things stand I feel it is an important question with far-ranging effects on everyone's lives. As for proving something does NOT exist, it will always be impossible. I can't prove a three-legged flapdoodle doesn't exist somewhere in the universe. All I can ever say is that there is no credible evidence that one DOES exist. And the same is true about gods. (Though given the immensity and complexity of the universe, I rather think a three-legged flapdoodle is far more likely to be real.)

[denuseri]

It is a rare event when I do, too, and for that reason, it is a greatly appreciated one. Thank-you den

Your ever so welcome kind Sir.

The people Thorne blames religion for making evil would be just as bad without religion. They'd probably tie their colours to one political mast or another instead - as so many others do already.

Just like they did in the Soviet Union and China when those places banned all religions save that of state sponsered aetheism.

[Thorne]

Just like they did in the Soviet Union and China when those places banned all religions save that of state sponsered aetheism.

Ahh yes, those old bogeymen. Those were COMMUNIST governments, not atheist governments. They banned religions because religions usurped too much power from the state, reducing the control the PEOPLE running those governments could impose upon their populations. They simply replaced gods with their Supreme Councils, or whatever title they gave them. Just as Islamic governments ban all non-Islamic religions in order to maintain control. Just as some Christian nations once banned all non-Christian religions. In every case it was an attempt to maintain control. These are very different from SECULAR governments. I don't want to BAN religions, just remove their influence from the government.

[Thorne]

Gods are, or are believed to be, supernatural. That means that any attempt to restrict them to the narrow confines of the physical universe, to the laws of nature, or within the boundaries of the real world is doomed to failure, and any sensible person, once he realises this, will accept that it is impossible and futile to continue to try to define god in earthly terms.

Then why do theists keep trying to do so? I'm not defining gods, after all. I'm trying to find evidence for them, or not. Regardless of their nature, if they are of any import in the physical world they have to have some impact on that world. Something which has happened which cannot be explained in any other way. If they do not exist then there are no impacts and no reason to worship them, as all evidence to date has indicated. If they DO exist and they still do not impact our world, then what is the reason to worship them? Their existence is moot.

I have never seen on this site any attempts to force you or anyone else to believe in a god or gods in general. I have also never seen any attacks on atheism as vehement and as zealous as I have seen atheists proclaim the righteousness of their views above those of anyone else, based on their limited scientific viewpoints as we have just seen.

On this site, no. But look at some of the legislation being put forward in the US right now. Look at the Texas Board of Education. They are aimed directly at non-believers, or different-believers. They are attempting to force faith-based laws onto everyone. And look up information about Atheist Advertisements, and how those ads are vehemently denounced by (some) religious people, and how they are defaced by "good" Christians around the US. A simple message such as, "It's OK to be Good without God!" has these "loving" theists gathering the wood for the witch burning.

Your freedom to believe that this is as good as it gets is under no threat from anyone here. I wonder if you have chosen the wrong forum to proselytise on behalf of your creed of emptiness.

I do post my opinions elsewhere, true. But this is one of the few places where I can get reasonable and intelligent arguments from believers of such diverse faiths. Besides, I like it here!

The people Thorne blames religion for making evil would be just as bad without religion. They'd probably tie their colours to one political mast or another instead - as so many others do already.

Absolutely. People are people, everywhere. But as I see it, this kind of person finds it easier to manipulate people through their fears of their own mortality and lack of understanding of reality. Religion has always been used as a tool for suppression. It's simply my belief that removing religion from the political landscape gives that kind of person less room to maneuver, makes them easier to identify for the vile person he or she might be.