the story of Our Lady "the Virgin Mary" in the muslims holly book (quran)

[denuseri]

It's not bad enough the thread has gotten totally derailed into yet another aethism bully pulpuit rant, thanks Thorne, (which is somehow ok cuase it was "fun" huh?)

...but we are resorting to name calling?



(I would love to know just who is being called a troll and what context your using the word Xian in leo? ) Cuase when I look through the rest of the thread the only troll like behavior I see seems to come from the side of the one claiming to believe in "not believing" in anything.


I see so long as the religion isnt pagan or aethism its fair game to use any amount of sophistry to attack it?

God forbid someone try to get together the Muslims and the Christians on any common ground, we cant have that now can we? Lets make sure we attack and belittle them every chance we get huh?

Is that aethisms way of paving a brighter future?

Making whatever divisions there are even deeper, trying to get people to focus on only the bad things, obfuscate, spin, and dogmatize everything.

You just cant stand to see people express their faith or seek common ground with others of different faiths?

Sounds to me like someone sure is saying its his way or the highway to me.

[Thorne]

It's not bad enough the thread has gotten totally derailed into yet another aethism bully pulpuit rant, thanks Thorne, (which is somehow ok cuase it was "fun" huh?)

Why is it OK for domaster to preach his beliefs, including quoting the Quran, but when I do the same it's ranting?

I see so long as the religion isnt pagan or aethism its fair game to use any amount of sophistry to attack it?

What sophistry?

God forbid someone try to get together the Muslims and the Christians on any common ground, we cant have that now can we? Lets make sure we attack and belittle them every chance we get huh?

I treat the Christians and Muslims equally! Isn't that common ground?

Is that aethisms way of paving a brighter future?

Yes. A world without religion. Looks pretty bright to me.

You just cant stand to see people express their faith or seek common ground with others of different faiths?

Express their faith, no problem. Proselytize? Fine, as long as I can respond in kind.

Sounds to me like someone sure is saying its his way or the highway to me.

Not saying that at all.

Domaster came in here and was espousing his beliefs. Great. I don't have a problem with that. But I have the same right to point out where I think his beliefs fail. Why do you have a problem with me doing that? Why is it all right for you to misrepresent my atheism ("one claiming to believe in "not believing" in anything"), but it's not okay for me to point out that what someone believes in is unlikely or unproven?

As for showing respect for religions, I can't think of even one good reason to do so. Why should I respect a religion whose leaders protect child molesters? Why should I respect a religion whose leaders treat rape victims as criminals? Why should I respect a religion whose believers think that a good time in heaven will be looking down on all those souls suffering in hell, and laughing at them? Go ahead! Give me a really good reason to respect religious beliefs.

And for the record, I didn't call anyone a troll, though I can understand why leo9 did. To be fair, though, domaster has not done the typical troll action of tossing a lot of BS into the arena and ducking out to watch the fur fly. He's defended his beliefs admirably. True, he's trying to convince me by using his holy book instead of reason, which is somewhat troll-like, but that doesn't make him a troll.

[denuseri]

Why is it OK for domaster to preach his beliefs, including quoting the Quran, but when I do the same it's ranting?

Oh you preached your own beliefs in abundance allready though havent you. All he did initially was try to point out that Christians and Muslims have some shared beliefs that could work to help make peace between them and then, as ussually, you tunred it into a "no your beielfs are wrong and your an idiot for having them rant".


What sophistry?

Points up to well over half of your posts in the thread where you associate all believers with rapists, murderers, child molesters, believers in fairy tales, flying purple unicons and what not becuase they must be since they are not aethiests like you.

I treat the Christians and Muslims equally! Isn't that common ground?

In trying to belittle their faith when your own beliefs have no more or less wieght than theirs becuase the base premise of all is the same is the hieght of hipocracy.

Yes. A world without religion. Looks pretty bright to me.

And a world where everyone could be free to practice or not their religion or belief system or life philosophy, or lack therof in mutual respect and tolerance without being called an idiot becuase those beliefs differ wouldnt be brighter?




Express their faith, no problem. Proselytize? Fine, as long as I can respond in kind.

The proselytizing Ive seen so far has come ironically enough from the one claiming to not belive in anything, even when you so clearly do believe in what you believe in with as much zealotry and fundamentalism as the most ardhent of the "faithful". How silly is that, sounds like the pot calling the proverbial kettle black.


Not saying that at all.

Then why not let others believe in what they wish too without trying to attack them for their beliefs for a change?

You make it impossible to have a reasoned discussion of theocracies when over and over you keep trying to draw sophic analogies to attck all faiths other than aethism as being wrong continiusly through any thread that even mentions the word religion.

Domaster came in here and was espousing his beliefs. Great. I don't have a problem with that. But I have the same right to point out where I think his beliefs fail. Why do you have a problem with me doing that? Why is it all right for you to misrepresent my atheism ("one claiming to believe in "not believing" in anything"), but it's not okay for me to point out that what someone believes in is unlikely or unproven?

Oh is that what youve been doing, Im sorry love I couldnt get around how youve been misrepresenting not only your stated ideals and those of all others who dont share your "way of thinking" (which btw is the exact same as saying "your beliefs").

No I dont have a problem with you expressing your beliefs, just the sophistic manner in which you choose to cloak it as an attack against anything that differs from your own, which is the hieght of hipocracy imho, especially when it comes from someone claiming to expouse the values of science and reason over baseless asumption.

It would be nice to have a discussion about religion just once without all the anti-religion dogma getting in the way.

Instead of allways attacking why not listen to what the other person is saying about their own beliefs just once and take them at face value?

As for showing respect for religions, I can't think of even one good reason to do so. No apparently you dont and yet you ask for that same respect be shown to you...how ironic and hypocritical. Why should I respect a religion whose leaders protect child molesters? Why should I respect a religion whose leaders treat rape victims as criminals? Why should I respect a religion whose believers think that a good time in heaven will be looking down on all those souls suffering in hell, and laughing at them? Go ahead! Give me a really good reason to respect religious beliefs.

Just as many bad things have ben done in the name of aethism so I dont see any difference there.

Respect doesnt require you to convert or anything, just "tolerance".

The Founding Father's believed that all people should be mutually respected when it came to one's own beliefs, that why we got the whole seperation of church and state thing to begin with. Or to quote the wiccans, "and it harm not others, do as thou will."

And for the record, I didn't call anyone a troll, though I can understand why leo9 did. To be fair, though, domaster has not done the typical troll action (so how is it fair to call him a troll or troll like then?) of tossing a lot of BS into the arena and ducking out to watch the fur fly. He's defended his beliefs admirably. True, he's trying to convince me by using his holy book instead of reason, which is somewhat troll-like, but that doesn't make him a troll.

Troll-like? Really? And you seriously wonder why I call you out on this kind of stuff?

In any event I don't believe the topic of this thread is to discuss what aethism is or is not, nor to constantly refute what one believes about what someone's elses religion or philosophy as being false for whatever reason or insult it's adhereants intelligence.

People are going to believe what they wish anyways where as that is concerned.

"For the believer no proof is nessesary and for the unbeliever, no proof is possible anyways."

I dont believe the main message of Hinduism, Judism, Buddism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai or Wicca is one of anything other than to love one another and help each other, to live together in peace and harmony. Yes its true that in the past and even today their are people who do bad things in the name of their religion and I am all for getting people to stop doing such things, to be tollerent of one another beliefs.

Some like aethiests may feel like they don't need to have faith in an outside force to help them in that endeavor and thats perfectly fine. But they shouldn't be fundamentally insistant on that which they cannot prove eaither or going on some kind of sophist filled rampage to see all religion abolished and become exactly like the very thing they espouse to be against.

You say the aethism practiced by the Communists wasnt behind all the atrocities committed against people of all faiths, fine, I say religions/belief systems in general all apply equally where as that is conserned. Evil men, using dogma to their own ends period. You wish to punnish the weapon used as opposed to the one wielding it I see. In that case we should abolish science too since it certiantly comes up with all manner of evil things to use against each other too.


Since no one can prove themselves right on any of it, doesnt it make more sence to just let people believe what they wish and punnish what society considers by law to be actions instead of ideas?

Seriously, isnt it ok for people to think what they wish to think so long as they are not hurting others?

All I am asking is why can't we all stop nitpicking about the specifics as we move into the future?

Focus on common ground as opposed to making things worse by fostering divisions?

Or will you do as you did earlier in the thread and all the others like it, and ignore reason and logic when it doesnt support the dogma of religion bashing?

Well, will you? I would love to see you actually answer ALL of my proposals with reason and logic and not skip them over like you ussually do and only pick at things to spin them?

<< gets in a philosophical socratic pose.

Come on lets see what you really got, no more hiding behind side issues Thorne.

Eaither you want to really practice what you preach or your not interessted in logic, reason, and science so much as dogma and rehtoric that suits the purpose of attacking all religions for that sake alone.

Which is it I wonder?

[Thorne]

[QUOTE=denuseri;923817]Well, will you? I would love to see you actually answer ALL of my proposals with reason and logic and not skip them over like you ussually do and only pick at things to spin them?
I'll give it a shot, then. And in all seriousness.

"For the believer no proof is nessesary and for the unbeliever, no proof is possible anyways."

Very right, for part 1. Very wrong for part 2. I've already stated that there are proofs of gods which could change my mind. I'm still waiting to see any of them.

I dont believe the main message of Hinduism, Judism, Buddism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai or Wicca is one of anything other than to love one another and help each other, to live together in peace and harmony. Yes its true that in the past and even today their are people who do bad things in the name of their religion and I am all for getting people to stop doing such things, to be tollerent of one another beliefs.

These may be the main messages of the religion, but it is NOT necessarily what is practiced by the hierarchies of those faiths. How many Christian religion, are willing to show tolerance for Gays, for example? Or Islam, or Judaism. I'm not familiar with the others you name, which is perhaps a failing of mine, but those religions are not trying to ram their beliefs down my throat through changing the laws.

Some like aethiests may feel like they don't need to have faith in an outside force to help them in that endeavor and thats perfectly fine. But they shouldn't be fundamentally insistant on that which they cannot prove eaither or going on some kind of sophist filled rampage to see all religion abolished and become exactly like the very thing they espouse to be against.

And once more I state that, as an atheist, I am not the one making the claim that gods exist. I am simply asking for proof, and in the absence of that proof I do not see any point in believing. And, while I think the world would be better off without religion, I am not trying to destroy religion, or faith. I am simply asking theists to actually think about what they believe in, and learn how those beliefs have changed over the years. See, for example, how their supposedly inerrant Bible was cobbled together from pieces of stories, which were based on even earlier stories. I do NOT say, "Do not believe!" I simply say, "Understand what you believe." Too many do not.

You say the aethism practiced by the Communists wasnt behind all the atrocities committed against people of all faiths, fine, I say religions/belief systems in general all apply equally where as that is conserned. Evil men, using dogma to their own ends period. You wish to punnish the weapon used as opposed to the one wielding it I see. In that case we should abolish science too since it certiantly comes up with all manner of evil things to use against each other too.

There is no atheism to "practice". Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods. ANY gods. There's no dogma, no services, no sermons. And yes, I agree that most of the evils incurred by religions are performed by evil men (and women) who twist the true message to meet their own ends. But it is the fear of the common theists which allows them to do this. When the leaders' words are law, who will gainsay them? How many Roman Catholics have risen up in righteous anger to condemn the Churches lack of response to the pedophile scandals? Damned few, as far as I can tell! And why haven't they? Because their leaders have told them, "This is Church business. Just sit down, say your prayers, and keep putting money into those collection plates." The problems in Islam (as I see them, at least) are very similar. The people don't condemn their leaders for the atrocities they espouse, thereby giving tacit approval to them.

Since no one can prove themselves right on any of it, doesnt it make more sence to just let people believe what they wish and punnish what society considers by law to be actions instead of ideas?

Absolutely! But how can you do that when the churches, the religions, control the law? Where is the justice for a rape victim in Iran? Islam controls the law, and Islam hates women even more than Catholics do. Where is the justice for the children who die of simple, easily curable diseases because their parents decided that praying was better than medicine? By all means, believe what you wish, but when your beliefs impinge upon my life you've gone too far.

Seriously, isnt it ok for people to think what they wish to think so long as they are not hurting others?

Go here to see whether they are hurting others.

All I am asking is why can't we all stop nitpicking about the specifics as we move into the future?

If they were only nits we were picking I could agree. But there are people dying because of religious beliefs. Ask the wives and families of doctors and nurses who happen to work in abortion clinics if these are nits. Ask the gays being executed in Uganda if these are only minor differences or opinion. Whether these abominations are caused directly or indirectly by religious belief is irrelevant. Religion gives them their impetus, and in many cases protects the perpetrators.

Come on lets see what you really got, no more hiding behind side issues Thorne.

Well, that's what I've got. How did I do? And nothing I've said here is any different than what I've said in the past.

People can believe whatever they want. I've never said that this should change. What does need to change, though, is people allowing those who believe in the supernatural the same consideration as those who believe in facts and evidence. If someone stands before me, either literally or figuratively in an open forum, and claims that his god is the one true god, or that everyone should believe what he believes, I'm going to call him out on it. And when those beliefs are patently false, I'll say so. The man who claims the world is flat just because some holy book tells him so is no more deserving of respect than the man who believes that a crocodile can give birth to a duck. PROVE that the world is flat and I'll respect you.