register for atheists?

[Thorne]

Does god need a name? Regardless of what you call god, most main stream religions believe in the same characteristics of god, love/mercy/etc.

And what about the NON-mainstream religions? Don't their visions of gods count? My point was that there are as many different versions of gods as there are names of gods, which each claiming to be the One True God. And adding in all of the pagan gods, both present and past, throws some pretty nasty beings into the mix. Anyone interested in asking for mercy from Baal or Loki?

Getting back to the thread, the dude is stupid, and no one should pay him any attention

Problem is, there are those who WILL pay attention. For every idiot out there, there are bigger idiots willing to believe him. Ignoring them only gives them the anonymity to keep doing evil in the names of their gods. Shining the light of reason and ridicule on them at least helps drive them back into the woodwork.

[Lion]

And what about the NON-mainstream religions? Don't their visions of gods count? My point was that there are as many different versions of gods as there are names of gods, which each claiming to be the One True God. And adding in all of the pagan gods, both present and past, throws some pretty nasty beings into the mix. Anyone interested in asking for mercy from Baal or Loki?

Fair enough question. But when there are 800 million Hindus, between 3-4 billion between Christian and Muslims, that's more then half the planet. I don't know if there are an abundance of people who worship a god who they believe doesn't love them, or have the general characteristics that the three monotheistic religions attribute to god, if there are non mainstream religions that have a god who they know is supposed to hate humans....I doubt they're really popular. So yeah, does god need a name then? Praying to a higher diety, having faith in something that you hope has some control of the universe, that's god.

Problem is, there are those who WILL pay attention. For every idiot out there, there are bigger idiots willing to believe him. Ignoring them only gives them the anonymity to keep doing evil in the names of their gods. Shining the light of reason and ridicule on them at least helps drive them back into the woodwork.

Honestly? I'm more concerned about politicians who decide to use my religion for political mudslinging to win votes. A random pastor at some church with no national or major regional presence is a far cry from shit that's already happening. I think atheists need not worry, lunatics are more concerned about that moozlim (read brown) guy in town and their crazy mosques, and preventing gay rights.

[Thorne]

Fair enough question. But when there are 800 million Hindus, between 3-4 billion between Christian and Muslims, that's more then half the planet.

That only means there are lots of people who believe in gods. Doesn't make those gods any more real.

I don't know if there are an abundance of people who worship a god who they believe doesn't love them

I believe that the vast majority of believers only believe what they are told to believe. They have been frightened into believing that their "loving" god will burn them for eternity if they don't go to church every week and donate their money.

or have the general characteristics that the three monotheistic religions attribute to god

Many of those characteristics they do NOT agree on. Such as the trinity.

if there are non mainstream religions that have a god who they know is supposed to hate humans

Satanism? I don't know how mainstream it is, but it's been around for a long time.

having faith in something that you hope has some control of the universe, that's god.

That's gravity.

Honestly? I'm more concerned about politicians who decide to use my religion for political mudslinging to win votes.

I'm more concerned about those same politicians infecting the government with their religious beliefs, bringing on a Christian (in the US) theocracy.

A random pastor at some church with no national or major regional presence is a far cry from shit that's already happening.

That's how it begins, though. Convert (or pervert, depending on your point of view) young minds who are basically trapped by their parents into believing. Then loose them on the rest of the world when they've grown.

I think atheists need not worry

Spoken like a theist.

lunatics are more concerned about that moozlim (read brown) guy in town and their crazy mosques, and preventing gay rights.

Lunatics are concerned over anyone who is different from themselves. Whether they are Muslim, Hindu, Atheist or Satanist. My concern is the lunatics who have a following, and are getting elected to office. They scare the hell out of me!

[thir]

I believe that the vast majority of believers only believe what they are told to believe. They have been frightened into believing that their "loving" god will burn them for eternity if they don't go to church every week and donate their money.

I am beginning to realize just how many historical arbitary happenings decide these things. For instance, when Luther came about, Danes 'became' protestants because the then king liked the idea of being head of church as well as the country. And now we are. Much the same in a lot of other places.

Satanism? I don't know how mainstream it is, but it's been around for a long time.

I am no expert on satanism, but I do know it is the Christians that create a devil who hates people. The little I now about satanism is that it is actually many things, that some of it was established as a protest against and attempt to liberation from the many restrains Christianity places on people, that some of it is sort of nature orientated, and that some is some sort of magical universe.

Mainly I think it is a figment of Christian imagination, a way to demonise whatever they do not like.
The word 'satan' is apparently Hebrew for 'opponent' or 'accuser'.

Fear of satanism is an example of how deelpy imbedded christian ideas are in us, like it or not, like the idea of who Baal or Astarte was, or Loke.

[leo9]

I am beginning to realize just how many historical arbitary happenings decide these things. For instance, when Luther came about, Danes 'became' protestants because the then king liked the idea of being head of church as well as the country. And now we are. Much the same in a lot of other places.

Not entirely arbitrary, given that almost the same thing happened in England. Rather that the authority of the Church was cracking, and both popular movements and rulers took advantage of it to grab a bit of the Pope's power. But certainly it was more to do with politics than theology.

I am no expert on satanism, but I do know it is the Christians that create a devil who hates people.

Zoroaster seems to have been the inventor of the idea of a power of Absolute Evil (as distinct from a god who might harm you because he was another tribe's god).

The little I now about satanism is that it is actually many things, that some of it was established as a protest against and attempt to liberation from the many restrains Christianity places on people, that some of it is sort of nature orientated, and that some is some sort of magical universe.

I think it's generally accepted now that the Church invented satanism. Executive summary: when the great heresy persecutions of the 13th Century were tailing off because they had run out of people to burn, some Spanish monks who were struggling to convert stubbornly pagan peasants in the mountains had the brilliant idea of rebranding their unglamorous work as another campaign against heresy. They announced that they had discovered the ultimate heresy, people who actually worshipped the Devil, and the Church took it up with a will and started hunting for Satanists everywhere. And as Pratchett observed, the thing about plots and conspiracies is, even if there aren't any to start with, if you hunt for them vigorously enough, pretty soon there will be. Once the Church (and the new Protestant churches) started telling everyone how terribly powerful Satan was and how he tempted his followers with rich rewards, naturally people started to think they'd like a piece of that.

The word 'satan' is apparently Hebrew for 'opponent' or 'accuser'.

Yes, it only appears in the book of Lot, where he seems to be something like JHVH's official torturer. Probably originally refered to an official similar to a Public Prosecutor.

[thir]

I don't know if there are an abundance of people who worship a god who they believe doesn't love them, or have the general characteristics that the three monotheistic religions attribute to god, if there are non mainstream religions that have a god who they know is supposed to hate humans....I doubt they're really popular.

I believe it is difficult for us in a world (Western) where life is relatively safe perhaps to understand how anyone can worships a malevalent god, or at least a god or gods that are completely arbitary in what they do. But I have an idea that if your life is depending on stuff that you have No influence over whatsoever, you try to appease or stay of the right side of these powers, be they god or gods, spirits, forces of nature, overlords or whatever. Basically because there is nothing else you Can do.

So yeah, does god need a name then?

Matter of taste, I suppose, and culture. I guess most Western people would feel alienated if they were supposed to pray to Ganesha, for example. And of course there are people who have more than one god, and therefore need names for them.

Praying to a higher diety, having faith in something that you hope has some control of the universe, that's god.

I would like to hear other opions on this: is we people of the Western world who need someone in charge of everything? Is it that we know that we live on a speck in the universe which can easily collide with another speck, or a thousand other things could happen, and even if they don't, we will die? Are we worse at living with death and arbitarity than more socalled primitive people, who often have a much more filosophical attitude? Do we need to know that our children will make it? Or it is simply a need for a sort of neatness??

UPS! I read 'god' as 'good'. Sorry. But I did not want to erase the question which concerns issues I have been thinking about.

Honestly? I'm more concerned about politicians who decide to use my religion for political mudslinging to win votes. A random pastor at some church with no national or major regional presence is a far cry from shit that's already happening.

All good points, IMO.

I think atheists need not worry, lunatics are more concerned about that moozlim (read brown) guy in town and their crazy mosques, and preventing gay rights.

I would have thought so, but atheists seem to be more talked about lately than usual.

[leo9]

I believe it is difficult for us in a world (Western) where life is relatively safe perhaps to understand how anyone can worships a malevalent god, or at least a god or gods that are completely arbitary in what they do. But I have an idea that if your life is depending on stuff that you have No influence over whatsoever, you try to appease or stay of the right side of these powers, be they god or gods, spirits, forces of nature, overlords or whatever. Basically because there is nothing else you Can do.

Someone who teaches Classical history told me how hard it is to explain to most people the concept of propitiation. That for the Greeks and Romans, and probably for most other peoples of their age, a great deal of prayer was about asking the gods to please leave me alone. Not asking favours, that would be WAY too dangerous, but if you were lucky you could persuade them to just turn aside a fraction and not step on you.

Which, as thir says, is a perfectly reasonable attitude when you're addressing the personification of forces like thunder and earthquakes which manifestly don't care who gets hurt.

Part of the confusion arises because the idea of moral dualism - that God = Absolute Good - is relatively new. The ancient world's gods weren't good or evil, except in the relative way we all are; they might be nice to you if they liked you and you made all the right sacrifices, but everyone knew they'd done really mean things in the past and might do it again if the whim took them. JHVH in the Old Testament is clearly just another such, but then someone retrofitted the Zoroastrian concept of a god of Absolute Good (and its inevitable corollary, a not-quite-god of Absolute Evil) and theologians have been trying to make that work ever since.

Same with "evil" gods. Thorne, it's pretty certain that Baal's reputation comes entirely from the Israelites, who weren't exactly unbiased. There is evidence that Baal and JHVH were different tribes' names for the same deity, and nobody is so hated as the people who are almost like us. As for Loki, the Eddas describe the gods calling on him frequently when they needed a cunning plan; since he's recorded as the patron god of eloquence (or to put it another way, lying,) it's likely that people did the same. Of course you wouldn't want to be the target of his sense of humour, but that doesn't make him a devil.

Campbell's Law states that defeated gods become demons.

I would like to hear other opions on this: is we people of the Western world who need someone in charge of everything?

Not sure, but it is a relatively modern idea that anyone, even the gods, are in charge of everything. The ancient gods were always at risk of defeat by some other pantheon or by the palace politics of their own, and Fate was greater than them all.

[thir]

And what about the NON-mainstream religions? Don't their visions of gods count? My point was that there are as many different versions of gods as there are names of gods, which each claiming to be the One True God. And adding in all of the pagan gods, both present and past, throws some pretty nasty beings into the mix. Anyone interested in asking for mercy from Baal or Loki?

Ah - you are taking the old testament Christian view of Baal? ;-) Good old bloody Jehova, I am sure he is more safe.

Problem is, there are those who WILL pay attention. For every idiot out there, there are bigger idiots willing to believe him. Ignoring them only gives them the anonymity to keep doing evil in the names of their gods. Shining the light of reason and ridicule on them at least helps drive them back into the woodwork.

The real big problem here that I see is that people are not stupid - they are scared. And some are just extremely nasty and can drive panics of various kinds, exploiting that fear.

My big beef with religion is the FEAR it inspires in some people, and that fear is the danger. People with no hell or damnation or vengeful gods do not usually bother anyone else. Not on their own initiative, anyway.