Occupy Wall Street Movement

[Thorne]

Thorne - the jobs aren't there!

There are jobs. Just not the high-paying jobs that they want. Nobody wants to start at the bottom and work their way up.

Problem now is not just the crisis, but the fact that many busnesses automate their production, so less jobs.

But that's the point of running a business. Maximize profits and minimize costs. Are we supposed to mandate how many employees a business must hire? Even if they don't need them? Again, what's the point in starting a business, then?

The businesses get help when they don't do well. Why?? Acccording to other parts of the system you mention, this should not happen, businesses should weed themselves out. First check.

I agree completely. The businesses SHOULD be weeded out if they cannot compete. NO business is too big to fail.

If businesses could not score a profit, do you think the world would stand still? No progress? No one wanting to do [I]anything[I]? A statement heard often, but never proven! Personally I don't think human beings are lotus eaters by nature.

No, not at all. But you would have a lot of small businesses, individuals or families running their own businesses, which wouldn't help the job situation either.

It would never just be 'nothing more'. People are so much more than that!

I think there are a LOT of people who would be satisfied with nothing more, at least on the books. Sure, they'll work off the records to get some luxuries, but if they didn't have to work for the basics, too many would be satisfied with what they have.

There goes the American dream again: there are always jobs, always education, if you want it. In the teeth of all evidence!

But there ARE always jobs. They may not be GOOD jobs. May not be high paying jobs, but there is work out there. You just have to be willing to do it. And we have federally mandated education through high school in the US. There are teachers out there who want to teach. There are students who want to learn. Perhaps the biggest challenge this country faces, though, is fixing the education system. Which takes money. TAX money.

Maybe not in the Lutheranian way (again taken from Christianity, even atheists carry the Christian values in them: In the sweat of your face you shall earn your bread) - not work for work's sake, but doing stuff.

Doing "stuff" doesn't necessarily imply doing constructive labor. In this day and age people are quite happy riding around on their four-wheelers, or their jet-skis, or going to parties. They just don't want to actually have to earn the money it takes to do those things.

[thir]

There are jobs. Just not the high-paying jobs that they want. Nobody wants to start at the bottom and work their way up.

Well, all I can tell you is that in other countries this is NOT the case. That is what unemployment means, that is what they count in %. As I said, I have personally experienced that enormous amount of applications to every job, which incidently, while interesting, wasn't paid all that much. And I have a first call view of life as unemployed, even in relatively humane countries as UK and DK, which is a night-mare than most people try desperately to scramble out of.

But, and this is said without rancour though with some confusion in your case, I understand that myth is stronger than mere facts.

But that's the point of running a business. Maximize profits and minimize costs. Are we supposed to mandate how many employees a business must hire? Even if they don't need them? Again, what's the point in starting a business, then?

The point about automation was only to list one of the reasons for unemployment.I guess it wasn't clear, but it was meant as an objective observation, not a hint that firms have to employ people. Although they may run out of customes somewhere along the line if they don't. It all has to hang together somewhere.

I agree completely. The businesses SHOULD be weeded out if they cannot compete. NO business is too big to fail.

Apparently, some disagree. They are too big to fail. Big car industries and banks do get help - billions of $ of help. I fail to see how this mixture of public funds and private firms is supposed to work. Either let them fall, or nationalize them.

No, not at all. But you would have a lot of small businesses, individuals or families running their own businesses, which wouldn't help the job situation either.

What? But if people are self-employed, they do not need any other job - believe me! Sound like a very good solution to me, privately as well as nationally.

I think there are a LOT of people who would be satisfied with nothing more, at least on the books. Sure, they'll work off the records to get some luxuries, but if they didn't have to work for the basics, too many would be satisfied with what they have.

I got a bit lost here again. What is wrong with being satisfied with what you have?

But there ARE always jobs. They may not be GOOD jobs. May not be high paying jobs, but there is work out there. You just have to be willing to do it.

I understand this is hard to take in, but NO, there aren't always jobs. Not even crap jobs! In DK and UK people are lining up for shitty jobs! The system says you have to take any job offered, but they do not have any to offer. The system has been privatized to firms who get paid for every person they find a job for, and they cannot find any. (That is in DK.)

I think it is time for the politicians to face the facts: that there has to be a congruence between number of workable people, and jobs. Automation alone makes the number of jobs go down ever so steadily - and number of people rises. We may end up with a society where jobs are just not an option through a person's entire life.

It is time for new thinking.

And we have federally mandated education through high school in the US. There are teachers out there who want to teach. There are students who want to learn. Perhaps the biggest challenge this country faces, though, is fixing the education system. Which takes money. TAX money.

I do not even know where to begin with education... just two facts, one is that some are poor enough that children are needed to help make money. The other is that statistics show that poor people get little education, while children of rich people get lots of education. Do you really seriously believe that they are all - well, you did not like the expression lazy, so what do I call it? Stupid? Uninterested in their future? BTW, I saw a program which showed that many children in ghettoes are in fact uninterested in their future, beacsause they do not expect to reach 20 yrs of age.

Doing "stuff" doesn't necessarily imply doing constructive labor. In this day and age people are quite happy riding around on their four-wheelers, or their jet-skis, or going to parties. They just don't want to actually have to earn the money it takes to do those things.

There is a difference between 'labour' and entertainment - for many people, anyway. Work can mean doing really useful things, as opposed to making gadgets nobody really needs, or pushing paper around.

Inventors of all kinds, researchers of all kinds, helpers of various kinds (animals, old people, sick people etc.) making your own radio station, writing books, clearing up beaches and streets, (yes, people do this voluntarily!) planting more trees (yes, they do it without being paid) gardening your own vedgetables, looking after your children and old people, making your own clothes (some are really deft at this) art, making bdsm gadgets ;-) and so on and so forth.

Are we here to work, and buy? Or to live, in our own right?
working with racist problems, haressment against disabled people,

[Thorne]

But, and this is said without rancour though with some confusion in your case, I understand that myth is stronger than mere facts.

I'm not offended, but I do try not to use myths instead of facts. However, I am limited by my environment, and in all honesty by a certain amount of laziness. I have no idea what conditions are like elsewhere, even elsewhere in the US, except from reading scattered reports on line. I am only familiar with my own area of central South Carolina. I applied for several jobs over the last few years, jobs which required technical skills and a good education. At my age, even possessing those skills, the likelihood of getting such jobs is slim. And yes, there were dozens, if not hundreds, of applicants. But at the same time, you can walk into almost any McDonalds or Burger King or the like and be almost guaranteed a minimum wage job if you want it. Most don't even want to consider working in such places, though. In my case, while I was collecting unemployment, I would have had to get a job making more than double the minimum wage just to offset the amount of unemployment I was getting. There was no incentive for me to take such a job.

In my little corner of the world, though, there always seem to be SOME jobs advertised. My DIL works for a Jobs Company, similar to Monster, and they always have new clients coming in looking for qualified help. But the key word is "qualified". Our failed educational system doesn't exactly make people qualified.

What? But if people are self-employed, they do not need any other job - believe me! Sound like a very good solution to me, privately as well as nationally.

Yeah, but how many Mom & Pop groceries can one neighborhood support? How many lawn care "specialists"? There still has to be a customer base, even if you're self-employed.

What is wrong with being satisfied with what you have?

Nothing wrong with it. The only question is how you got there.

Automation alone makes the number of jobs go down ever so steadily - and number of people rises. We may end up with a society where jobs are just not an option through a person's entire life.

Automation makes for NEW kinds of jobs, jobs which require some skill and education. And perhaps the solution is to convince people that they should NOT have children. Like by NOT having the government reward them for adding more kids to the welfare rolls.

It is time for new thinking.

I haven't seen a whole lot of OLD thinking, sadly. ANY thinking, rather than just reacting, would be an improvement.

Are we here to work, and buy? Or to live, in our own right?

We aren't here to DO anything. That implies some kind of externally imposed purpose. We are HERE. That's all. What we MAKE of that is up to us. Very few of us are capable of surviving in the wilderness. And the wilderness is incapable of supporting too many anyway. So we must work to live, if at all possible. One benefit of being human is that we do, for the most part, try to take care of those who are not able to work, for various reasons. Where we need to draw the line is in supporting, indefinitely, those who don't WANT to work.

[thir]

Just thought I'd post this article, with special reference to the last sentences:

Who Are the 99 Percent? Story #13


We are lucky. My husband has a full time salaried position with the county government that pays slightly less than $22K a year, and the SSI three of our four children receive for being autistic means I can stay home and be there for them. I tried working, when there were more jobs, but we had severe discipline and anxiety problems. Our girls seem to fall apart right now when I’m not home. So I stay home.

We own a trailer, and rent a lot in a trailer park. In the past year, people have been moving out because they can’t even afford mortgages on cheap mobile homes. In the summer, if you looked out the window, you would see a procession of guys pushing lawn mowers down the streets. Those were residents who were looking for odd jobs because they had hit rock bottom, and mowing lawns was preferable to outright begging. They never seemed to get work, maybe because nobody could afford to hire a lawn mower.

I was raised upper middle class, sent to private schools, went to a private undergraduate institution (graduated cum laude), did my master’s work at the University of Oxford, and after working in an industry that imploded (mortgages) wound up as… a professional telemarketer. My husband was told, when doing his paralegal studies degree, that the average paralegal starts at $35K to $40K and can make up to twice that amount. Statistics showed this to be true. His college did also have a near-100% placement rate… but when he graduated, few law firms were hiring. He got hired by the county department of probation at a salary usually associated with entry level receptionists. He was one of the lucky ones.

There are homeless children in the school our daughters attend.

And yet we are told, “Hard work pays off. If you are not successful, you have only yourselves to blame.”

And the children who have no home? No food aside from what they get in the school cafeteria? What are they being told?

WE ARE THE 99%. WE ARE NOT FAILURES. WE ARE NOT LAZY. WE ARE NOT STUPID, OR SPENDTHRIFT, OR FREELOADERS IN SEARCH OF HANDOUTS. WE ARE HUMAN.

occupywallst.org



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