The War On Christmas Just Won’t End

[thir]

The war on Christmas

"Christmas is about to swing into high gear. The latest charge comes out of Rhode Island where a state representative is calling Gov. Lincoln Chafee “Governor Grinch” after Chafee defied lawmakers and decided the state would have a ”holiday tree” instead of a “Christmas tree.”

The move has so offended Rep. Doreen Costa that she’s taking matters into her own hands and lighting her own Christmas tree at the state house, and a conservative group of pastors out of Pennsylvania has grabbed onto the story to push the never-ending narrative of Christian oppression during the holiday season.

“This time of year,” says Colin Hanna, president of the Pennsylvania Pastors’ Network and Let Freedom Ring, “some get so wrapped up and wound so tightly about the political correctness of Christmas. We change everything to ‘holiday,’ and are afraid of mentioning anything with ‘Christmas’ in it for fear of offending someone. What about Christians who hold Christmas so dear? Isn’t it offensive to the majority of the U.S. who celebrates this blessed time of Jesus’ birth to take it to such a generic level?”

One reason why state displays with holiday-themed narratives are enacted on a “generic” level is the First Amendment’s prohibition against government-sponsored, backed or endorsed religious activities. A failure of the government not to embrace and promote a specifically Christian world view is not political correctness run amok, it it constitutional fidelity.

Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/the-war-...#ixzz1fwD75Wcg

I have read about this - problem? - here in UK, whereby Christians oppose violently against public - public, mind - events which may be termed 'Winter Fair' or 'Light festival' or the like.

I get quite angry at that. A city or commune or whatever may call an event what they like, after all they organise and pay for it.

I still do not understand this feeling of these people that everybody needs to follow a person's own particular faith. Why?

But it makes me angry that this is done in the teeth of all attempts to promote 'interfaith', and neutral or more inclusive terms for the festivals common to a lot of people. What happened to 'peace on earth'?

Well, it was just a muttering from here, really.

Merry season ;-)

[Thorne]

Oh, things are even worse than that!

Anyone can add to the display there, except atheists. Because thinking rationally is an obvious trick to make people into atheists.

But yeah, the celebration of Christ's birth, which most likely happened in the spring, and which was moved to the current date to overshadow the pagan celebrations of the solstice, is the obvious and only reason for the season. It doesn't really matter to these people that there are other religions, or those with no religions, who also celebrate at this time of the year, for completely different reasons. It's only THEIR holiday that matters, and not letting them force feed everyone else with their religious fairy tales is denying them their rights.

Happy Solstice, everyone.

[lucy]

Methinks the war should be waged against Santa Clause. The fucker with his fucking reindeer actually threatens to push our beloved Christkind into oblivion.

Apart from that I couldn't care less about Xmas.

[Thorne]

I think we should PUSH Santa Clause more, especially to younger kids. After all, what would be better than showing them that there's this magic man who watches you all the time, who knows when you are good or bad, and will give you presents if you're good. And then showing them that it's just a story. Just like that story of the magic man in the sky, who watches you all the time, and knows when you are good or bad, and will answer your prayers when you are good (sometimes, maybe) and who will send you to hell to burn forever in a lake of fire if you don't believe in him. Isn't that just what we want our kids to learn?

[Venom]

^^ Not to mention poor Nikolaus, a real Christian figure (Bishop of Myra), who in some regions seems to merge more and more with Father Christmas/Santa Claus.

[thir]

[QUOTE=Thorne;957896]Oh, things are even worse than that!

"“I believe [the banner] violates the First Amendment. It’s endorsing atheism,” the mayor said. The creche “is a statue. It’s not a doctrinal statement.”"

So there is a limit for freedom of speech, after all..Right.

But yeah, the celebration of Christ's birth, which most likely happened in the spring, and which was moved to the current date to overshadow the pagan celebrations of the solstice, is the obvious and only reason for the season.

I think that is pretty much proven. However, let people celebrate what they want, when they want, but give othere the same right!

It doesn't really matter to these people that there are other religions, or those with no religions, who also celebrate at this time of the year, for completely different reasons. It's only THEIR holiday that matters, and not letting them force feed everyone else with their religious fairy tales is denying them their rights.

That is what is SO annoying! Though not, these days, dangerous, happily.

Happy Solstice, everyone.

And to you too :-))
Personally I can't wait for the light to come back, and it is a cause for joy when it starts!!

[ksst]

I'm going to go dance around my solstice tree now

If cities are putting up a decorated evergreen tree at this season on public property and calling it a holiday tree it's just wishy washy lying to mollify the other religions/non religions. It's a Christmas tree and they ought to call it a Christmas tree. The real issue is whether they should be endorsing one particular religion over the others, or over no religion. And my answer is no. It ought to be up to people on their private property and churches to celebrate their own religion or not.

[Thorne]

It's a Christmas tree and they ought to call it a Christmas tree.

Except that people were decorating trees long before the Christians took over the holiday. And if you're not Christian, but still want a tree, why should you be forced to call it a Christmas tree, and not a Solstice tree, or a Hanukkah Bush, or almost anything else you can think of! The term Christmas Tree denotes a Christian theme, and is therefor no appropriate for government sponsored displays. Holiday tree is, technically, correct.

[denuseri]

But not culturally and traditionally correct.

Leave Christmas alone and let the people celebrate it the way they wish, (just like Thanksgiving) if one is more into the long pagan history of it or one is wanting more cultural identity and wishes to invent a new holiday or one is simply christian...who cares...you don't see anyone in a tizzy over Ramadan being called what it is, or having a conniption fit over the atheist feeling left out and making their own day etc. Live and let live. In a region where Hanukkah is more predominant guess what one will see plastered all over and no one calling it anything other than...

[Thorne]

Leave Christmas alone and let the people celebrate it the way they wish,

Which is exactly the point I was making. No one is telling Christians they can't celebrate Christmas, or even call it that. Their "War on Christmas" is always about those who are NOT Christians saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", or a town calling their decorations "Holiday" decorations instead of "Christmas" decorations. Basically, they want everyone to celebrate THEIR holiday, as they see fit, without allowing anyone to celebrate her own holiday as SHE sees fit. No one says that a Church cannot put up a creche in the front of their property. We're only saying you cannot put one up on PUBLIC property, especially at public expense, without also allowing others to put up their own symbols of their faith, at the same public expense. ALL faiths are equal in the law, as are those with no faith.

[MMI]

What is wrong is, not that Christmas, Hunukkah, Saturnalia or whatever are publicly celebrated, but that those who do not participate comment, or those who do celebrate comment on those who don't.

Maybe if we all stopped being so concerned about what others are doing, we could get on with enjoying ourselves, or worshipping, or whatever.

What do festivities do atheists have? Or are they just party poopers?

[MMI]

Here in Leicester, we fund public celebration of Diwali, Hunukkah, Christmas and Chinese New Year quite happily, as well as Sikh and Moslem festivities (well, as happily as anyone who has no choice how our money is spent).

[Thorne]

What is wrong is, not that Christmas, Hunukkah, Saturnalia or whatever are publicly celebrated, but that those who do not participate comment, or those who do celebrate comment on those who don't.

What is wrong is that those who celebrate the birth of their savior cannot tolerate others who have different reasons to celebrate, and cannot understand why having their icons and rituals and beliefs shoved in our faces might be annoying.

Maybe if we all stopped being so concerned about what others are doing, we could get on with enjoying ourselves, or worshipping, or whatever.

Which is my point! You celebrate your way, I'll celebrate mine, and others will celebrate their way. But just because I don't happen to say "Merry Christmas" doesn't mean I'm attacking anyone. Unless you're a Fox News reporter.

What do festivities do atheists have? Or are they just party poopers?

Atheists can still celebrate the season, without all of the religious ritual. It's a time of year for getting together with family and friends, for celebrating the end of one year and the beginning of another. We have dinners, parties, whatever kinds of celebrations we want. Or not. Why does there have to be some religious significance? People were celebrating the solstice long before the Catholics took it over. They'll be celebrating it long after the Christians have gone the way of the Aztec priests.

[Thorne]

Here in Leicester, we fund public celebration of Diwali, Hunukkah, Christmas and Chinese New Year quite happily, as well as Sikh and Moslem festivities (well, as happily as anyone who has no choice how our money is spent).

According to the Supreme Court's interpretation of the American Constitution, public celebrations which are inclusive of ALL are perfectly acceptable. Having public displays featuring all of the different religious and non-religious groups is perfectly acceptable. Even if some of us consider it a waste of money. The supposed "War on Christmas" is a war only in the minds of those Christians who believe that theirs is the ONLY reason for celebrating. Having a Christmas Tree singles out those Christians. Having a Holiday Tree includes everyone.

[MMI]

It's not just Christians, Thorne. Atheists complaint about having to celebrate Xmas when they just want to have a good time. So do Moslems and Jews. I've never heard a Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist complain about any of it, however.

We should all shut up and enjoy ourselves - and yes, I know that's your point, but only part of it

[Thorne]

It's not just Christians, Thorne. Atheists complaint about having to celebrate Xmas

No, atheists complain about being forced to endure Christian displays on public property, and at public expense. It's public officials, using their office, to promote a SPECIFIC religious celebration, rather than a generic, all-inclusive one. Not only that, but in many cases they deliberately exclude some religious groups (like Islam and Judaism) despite their celebrations being at about the same time of the year. And they almost always alienate atheists, prohibiting them from posting their own seasonal messages.

How can someone be forced to celebrate Christmas?

We should all shut up and enjoy ourselves

How can I possibly enjoy myself while having to endure those horrific Xmas songs played incessantly wherever I go?

[ksst]

"what holidays do atheists have?"

Which ever ones they want, at least at our house. It's not actually a requirement to believe in God to celebrate traditions with family.

[thir]

What do festivities do atheists have? Or are they just party poopers?

I personally have celebrated the coming of the light since I was about 11 years old - feverently!

[Thorne]

Just ran across this video. Pretty much explains what we've all been talking about, doesn't it?

[thir]

Just ran across this video. Pretty much explains what we've all been talking about, doesn't it?

Yes, mostly a good overview.

On the theme of why xtians want others to follow their path:

Catholics Protest ‘Blasphemous’ Play in Paris

"Catholic demonstrators in Paris have turned out in force to protest a play they call ‘blasphemous.’"

"Paris’s archbishop, André Vingt-Trois, has called Golgota Picnic, which he had not seen, “deliberately offensive.” Demonstrators who marched on the theatre Sunday bore banners reading ‘France is Christian and must remain so,’ and ‘That’s enough Christianophobia.’"

"Both authorities and art lovers are concerned about a rise in fundamentalist religious protest action against some of France’s most high-profile theatres, including pelting the audience with eggs, letting off stinkbombs and the invasion of the stage of Paris’s esteemed Théâtre de la Ville."

"In 1988, a Paris cinema screening Martin Scorsese’s The Last Temptation of Christ was firebombed. The attack injured 13 people, four of whom were severely burned."

"Earlier this year, photographs including Piss Christ by the New York artist Andres Serrano were destroyed at a gallery in Avignon."

"Authorities are concerned about connections between younger fundamentalists, who have been staging protests all over France, and the far-right. Hardline Christianist groups are believed to have broken with the National Front since it was taken over by Jean-Marie Le Pen’s daughter Marine.

The Théâtre de Rond-Point’s Jean-Michel Ribes said the role of artists was to fight against “suffocating dogma.”

French Culture Minister Frederic Mitterand said that while he was “very attached to the Christian tradition” in France, the right to freedom of thought and the separation of church and state needed to be protected “at all costs.”

Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/catholic...#ixzz1gVYU15xU


Fundamentalism can start with grumping about what you call things officially. It should be stopped right there.

[Thorne]

Paris’s archbishop, André Vingt-Trois, has called Golgota Picnic, which he had not seen, “deliberately offensive.”

I love this! How often do we hear about some religious leader condemning something which he has not seen or read, basing his opinion solely on the word of someone else. How does he know it's offensive? Is it offensive to everyone? Or only to him? How does he know the offense was deliberate?

Basically it's the old, "You can't offend me, because I'm one of God's children."

Sorry, Bishop. No one has the right to NOT be offended. If you don't like it, don't go to see it. That doesn't give you the right to prevent others from seeing it if they want.

If your god isn't powerful enough to take care of his own image, why bother to worship him? He's just another wannabe god.

[Ozme52]

I think we should PUSH Santa Clause more, especially to younger kids. After all, what would be better than showing them that there's this magic man who watches you all the time, who knows when you are good or bad, and will give you presents if you're good. And then showing them that it's just a story. Just like that story of the magic man in the sky, who watches you all the time, and knows when you are good or bad, and will answer your prayers when you are good (sometimes, maybe) and who will send you to hell to burn forever in a lake of fire if you don't believe in him. Isn't that just what we want our kids to learn?

OMG - I haven't laughed out loud that long that hard in quite a long time.

Thx Thorne

[Thorne]

OMG - I haven't laughed out loud that long that hard in quite a long time.

Thx Thorne

My pleasure. You've given me plenty of chuckles over the years, too. Especially today.

Happy solstice, my friend.

[Ozme52]

Now for my two cents.

Having actually grown up here in the USA as an impressionable non-Christian child, I was always made uncomfortable in school... being forced to pray to Christ. Yes, you don't realize how it is for non-whatever kids it must be to grow up in a secular state. Sure the Constitution said freedom of religion but until recently that wasn't what was practiced.

And Thorne is, imo, quite right. I don't see many non-Christian complaining about Christian practices. Just the more radical "Christians" objecting to those who want non-denominational celebrations. Why... it's as bad as those radical muslims objecting to anyone who uses islamic imagery to make a point. You know... the terrorists. (A concept that goes back to the Reformation. )

[Ozme52]

PS. If anyone is curious...

Zen Druid. It's ALL about the oak tree that isn't there.

[Venom]

Why does the concept of terrorism go back to the Reformation? And do not bother with the Thirty Years' War -- that was as much about true religion as a bloke with a suicide bomb belt tearing women and children apart.

[ksst]

I think in some ways we are going backwards. When I was in high school we were forbidden to sing Christmas carols in typing class. Other songs were ok. Yes, we really did sing and type. Whatever.

At the public school where my kids go, they sing all sorts of Christmas songs in music class, and celebrate the holiday thoroughly. I thought it was striking when I went to see artwork from Kindergarten and it was all Santa's reindeer except for one horse. My son told me his little friend there doesn't celebrate holidays. Kinda made me want to meet her parents.

[MMI]

Lol

[MMI]

Look. To me it's simple. If you're Christian, you celebrate Christmas. Non-Christians don't. Jews celebrate Hunnukah, non-Jews don't. Moslems, Eid: non-moslems ignore it. Atheists celebrate I don't know what ... Solstice, perhaps (see post 23 above), like pagans, or anything at all (post 17). Non-atheists don't.

If any one of those groups is sufficiently large, they are entitled to have their celebration observed by the relevant authorities at public expense, and anyone who objects is being nothing other than churlish in my opinion. Hang it all - it's a celebration!

But for an atheist to want to change Christmas because it excludes him is just wrong. Of course it excludes him - he's not Christian. Eid excludes non-moslems and so on. A celebration of godlessness would be just as exclusive of religious people, wouldn't it?

But I do agree that it's also wrong for Christians etc to force non-believers to join in and pray. In the schools I went to, pupils would be excused acts of worship if their parents requested it.

[Thorne]

PS. If anyone is curious...

Zen Druid. It's ALL about the oak tree that isn't there.

Last night I saw upon the stair
A little man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
Oh, how I wish he’d go away