Quote Originally Posted by MMI View Post
Which way do you want it: Christians can celebrate Christmas at public expense and atheists can celebrate nothing (that's what they think gods are) at public expense. Or no-one can celebrate anything at public expense?
Again you misrepresent. I don't say NO one can celebrate at public expense. I simply say that if public funds are used for any, they must be made available to all. If a city government funds decorations for a Christian holiday, they must also be willing to fund decorations for Jewish holidays, or Muslim holidays, or any other religious group which wants it. Including atheists, although they technically aren't a religious organization.

Why the hell (if that place exists) can't atheists just join in and enjoy the fantasy.
Which fantasy? Yours? The Pope's? The Rabbi's? Why don't theists just forget their fantasies and join atheists in celebrating reason?

Why don't you and your family go, too? (You won't have to actually pray!)
I spent too many years of my life going to mass. I don't find it inspiring, I find it boring. I don't care for the music, or the ritual. Don't get me wrong. I don't care if anyone else goes. Just not interested myself.

Our local authority funds all kinds of ethnic and religious celebrations and I have not heard anyone object. We have Caribbean Carnivals, Chinese New Year, Sikh, Moslem, Jewish and Christian festivals, and if atheists had anything to celebrate and wanted to do so, I'm sure the authorities would be happy to accommodate them too.
Which is precisely what I have been saying! As long as everyone is treated equally, there's not a problem. Here in the US some towns and cities do the same thing. Others only promote one religious holiday, the Christian one. Any others who object are automatically considered to be attacking Christmas and Christians, when all they are seeking is the equality which the law guarantees!

I think not: I am serious. Folk dancers frequently dance on public property with the consent of the authorities. Ballroom dancing is often held in public halls. Many such groups receive public funding, from local authorities and from arts councils etc (as well as from private sources) I doubt many ballet companies would be able to survive without some form of public support, being such a minority interest. Folk dancing troupes will often obtain funding from regional authorities anxious to promote their local identities in order to attract tourists, and I imagine any good Secretary or Treasurer of a ballroom dancing society will not neglect to find out what support he can get from the local government.
And again, you make my point for me! The authorities fund all kinds of troupes: ballroom, tap, ballet, etc. They don't fund just ballroom dancers, for example, and claim that tap dancers are pagan heretics and undeserving. Treat all equally! That's all atheists are asking for!

First, Christians are not complaining that they are not being allowed to force others into celebrating Christ's nativity. If I am wrong, show me.
See this article.
A relevant quote: "Walgreens is the latest store to return to explicit references to Christmas, switching its position a day after some Christian groups threatened to boycott over its generic holiday wording."

Or, from the other side of the story. "Stores no longer held “Christmas sales.” Businesses, and soon after, individuals, ceased to hold “Christmas parties.” And on and on. “Christmas” became a dirty word, and was replaced by “holiday.” The War on Christmas had begun."

Doesn't that sound like celebrating something besides Christmas is considered an attack on Christmas? Don't Christians understand that others celebrate the season too? Apparently not!

If they are complaining it is because they are not being allowed to celebrate the Nativity openly: atheists want them to do it behind closed doors, where as Christianity is about celebrating Christ, not hiding Him away.
No, we are NOT saying they have to hide it away! Just don't force others to celebrate it, as shown above! And don't claim exclusive rights to set up decorations, on public property. A Church can have the biggest, baddest Nativity scene in history, as long as it's on THEIR property. Inside or outside, makes no difference. Just THEIR property, and THEIR money.

Celebrating Christ is NOT forcing Him upon others, just like advertising Coca Cola is not forcing anyone to drink the stuff.
Advertising Coca Cola while forbidding anyone to advertise Pepsi IS forcing.

Finally you talk about the inequitable tax treatment Christians receive: they can deduct their donations from their taxable income. Can't atheists deduct charitable contributions too?
Sure they can! But how much of the money churches collect actually goes to charity? How much of it really goes to maintaining the church, paying the priests/ministers? Churches should be treated like any other business. And THEY can deduct for any charitable work they do.

Is your attitude different about countries like Germany and Austria who charge a tax on people who belong to particular Christian Faiths - Catholics and Lutherans mostly, I believe - but who do not charge atheists anything in that regard?
I'm not aware of this. First I've heard of it. My first question would be, Why? Is there some justification for this tax? If it is simply a tax because of their religion, then no, I don't condone it. That would be just as bad as taxing atheists because they DON'T believe.

A quick scan of Wikipedia seems to indicate that the lion's share of this tax actually goes to pay for the churches' expenses! Sounds more like forced "tithing", though at a much lower rate. "Some communities refuse to administer marriages and burials of (former) members who had declared to leave it." Which sounds like the church itself is ultimately responsible for this tax. Personally, I think this is wrong. Churches, as I said, should be treated like any other business, paying property taxes and collecting money from their "customers". After all, isn't putting the fear of God into people so they'll turn over their money what they do?