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thir The War On Christmas Just... 12-08-2011, 03:38 AM
Thorne Oh, things are even worse... 12-08-2011, 07:07 AM
thir [QUOTE=Thorne;957896]Oh,... 12-10-2011, 06:42 AM
lucy Methinks the war should be... 12-08-2011, 09:42 AM
Thorne I think we should PUSH Santa... 12-08-2011, 01:47 PM
Ozme52 OMG - I haven't laughed out... 12-14-2011, 12:57 PM
Thorne My pleasure. You've given me... 12-14-2011, 01:09 PM
Venom ^^ Not to mention poor... 12-08-2011, 01:52 PM
ksst I'm going to go dance around... 12-10-2011, 08:03 AM
Thorne Except that people were... 12-10-2011, 09:46 AM
denuseri But not culturally and... 12-10-2011, 10:40 AM
Thorne Which is exactly the point I... 12-10-2011, 12:16 PM
MMI Here in Leicester, we fund... 12-11-2011, 06:46 PM
Thorne According to the Supreme... 12-11-2011, 06:53 PM
MMI What is wrong is, not that... 12-11-2011, 06:34 PM
Thorne What is wrong is that those... 12-11-2011, 06:48 PM
thir I personally have celebrated... 12-13-2011, 10:18 AM
MMI It's not just Christians,... 12-11-2011, 06:58 PM
Thorne No, atheists complain about... 12-11-2011, 07:30 PM
ksst "what holidays do atheists... 12-12-2011, 04:01 PM
Thorne Just ran across this video... 12-13-2011, 11:54 AM
thir Yes, mostly a good overview. ... 12-14-2011, 04:37 AM
Thorne I love this! How often do we... 12-14-2011, 10:22 AM
Ozme52 Now for my two cents. ... 12-14-2011, 01:12 PM
Ozme52 PS. If anyone is curious...... 12-14-2011, 01:14 PM
MMI Lol 12-14-2011, 06:41 PM
Thorne Last night I saw upon the... 12-15-2011, 12:22 PM
Venom Why does the concept of... 12-14-2011, 01:46 PM
ksst I think in some ways we are... 12-14-2011, 01:48 PM
MMI Look. To me it's simple. If... 12-14-2011, 06:55 PM
Thorne But that's exactly the point.... 12-15-2011, 12:36 PM
thir I don't think that is ok -... 12-16-2011, 05:12 AM
thir It would not be more... 12-16-2011, 05:16 AM
Venom What he said. 12-16-2011, 11:41 AM
thir Something positive and... 12-16-2011, 05:04 AM
ksst We celebrated Sankta Lucia... 12-16-2011, 06:16 AM
thir Same here :-)) 12-18-2011, 03:13 PM
MMI In the UK, when I was at... 12-16-2011, 08:08 PM
Thorne I attended Catholic schools... 12-17-2011, 01:56 PM
MMI Which way do you want it:... 12-17-2011, 06:50 PM
Thorne Again you misrepresent. I... 12-17-2011, 08:33 PM
Venom Who else shall pay for it?... 12-18-2011, 05:52 AM
Thorne Actually, the way these taxes... 12-18-2011, 07:41 AM
Venom The church tax is not a fix... 12-18-2011, 01:43 PM
Thorne No, that's not what I was... 12-18-2011, 03:36 PM
thir Actually, yes they are. That... 12-18-2011, 03:21 PM
thir We ate in the class room but... 12-18-2011, 03:11 PM
John_Flux This whole war on Christmas... 12-17-2011, 12:14 AM
denuseri The fact is however that... 12-17-2011, 08:42 AM
Thorne Primarily because it's... 12-17-2011, 02:02 PM
ksst Just an example for our... 12-17-2011, 08:38 PM
MMI I wonder ... did anyone ask? 12-18-2011, 09:48 AM
Thorne My point exactly, ksst. And... 12-17-2011, 08:55 PM
MMI Speaking as an atheist, I... 12-18-2011, 09:46 AM
Thorne Here's one man's answer.... 12-18-2011, 01:02 PM
ksst double post 12-18-2011, 10:31 AM
ksst Yes, they did I think, ask to... 12-18-2011, 10:33 AM
MMI What on Earth difference does... 12-20-2011, 11:37 AM
Thorne You're kidding, right? Do you... 12-20-2011, 03:25 PM
MMI Nope - not kidding, but not... 12-20-2011, 04:49 PM
Thorne No, we're talking about... 12-21-2011, 06:31 AM
denuseri Actually a handful of the... 12-21-2011, 03:48 PM
denuseri The Danes and Norway support... 12-21-2011, 03:41 PM
denuseri Yep...hypocrites to the last.... 12-20-2011, 03:05 PM
Thorne Not quite! Unless you have... 12-20-2011, 03:37 PM
MMI Let's go back a baby step ...... 12-21-2011, 06:57 PM
Thorne It's not illegal, yet. But... 12-21-2011, 09:44 PM
denuseri Interesting how almost all... 12-23-2011, 12:12 PM
Thorne Here's a nice little piece... 12-22-2011, 06:45 AM
MMI I cannot accept any of what... 12-22-2011, 05:57 PM
Thorne As usual we seem to be... 12-22-2011, 08:52 PM
Thorne I haven't heard of any... 12-23-2011, 02:03 PM
  1. #1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post

    A quick scan of Wikipedia seems to indicate that the lion's share of this tax actually goes to pay for the churches' expenses!
    Who else shall pay for it? You yourself wrote earlier: "Atheists don't object to Christmas, per se, but to government officials promoting Christmas at the expense of other religious groups, while using public funds."
    And we have to remember: a considerable part of that tax money (not all of it, alas) goes back to society in form of social work like hospitals, kindergartens, women's refuges etc, and not only within those countries, but also in regions of the Third World.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    Who else shall pay for it? You yourself wrote earlier: "Atheists don't object to Christmas, per se, but to government officials promoting Christmas at the expense of other religious groups, while using public funds."
    And we have to remember: a considerable part of that tax money (not all of it, alas) goes back to society in form of social work like hospitals, kindergartens, women's refuges etc, and not only within those countries, but also in regions of the Third World.
    Actually, the way these taxes are done isn't what's bothering me. I agree, those who attend those churches should be responsible for their costs. And taxing those who attend those churches is one way to do it. That let's those who do NOT attend off the hook, not having to pay for the churches'. I just don't like the idea of forcing church members, through a government run tax scam, to pay a particular amount. I always thought that people donated to the church of their choice, and were not forced to pay a fee to be a member.

    Here it sounds like the governments are collecting this tax for individual churches, skimming some off the top (to cover their own "costs", no doubt) and then paying the money to the churches. Why not let the churches collect their own funds, the way they do here in the US? Then tax the churches on their income, with deductions for charitable works, which the churches would have to document themselves. Basically treat them just like any business, leaving them with the burden of keeping the records, paying their taxes, or being seized and sold off to cover their tax debt.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post

    Here it sounds like the governments are collecting this tax for individual churches, skimming some off the top (to cover their own "costs", no doubt) and then paying the money to the churches. Why not let the churches collect their own funds, the way they do here in the US?
    The church tax is not a fix amount, it's a percentage of the income tax (in Germany, for example, 8 respectively 9%, depending in which federal state one lives). Since tax information comes under data protection, it cannot be given to the churches to collect the money.

    And letting everybody, rich and poor alike, pay the same total amount is considered unfair, so said tax information is needed.
    Last edited by Venom; 12-18-2011 at 01:50 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    Since tax information comes under data protection, it cannot be given to the churches to collect the money.
    No, that's not what I was suggesting. Rather, let the churches collect from their constituents whatever the people wish to donate, rather than as a tax. Having the government collect the tax FOR the churches seems rather archaic. A holdover of the feudal system, perhaps?

    And letting everybody, rich and poor alike, pay the same total amount is considered unfair, so said tax information is needed.
    But forcing people to pay to attend a church? That just doesn't seem right. You either pay because you believe, and believe it is right for you to pay, or you don't pay at all. This seems to me to be a way to make certain that the churches collect enough money to keep from going bankrupt. Unless you do the same for other businesses it just seems wrong.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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