Infidelity and BDSM

[Ragoczy]

If she hadn't been clear in her "No Reason" statement, if she hadn't been very clear that she doesn't mind calling all of us sh!ts, I wouldn't have responded as I had.

Perhaps you didn't take it as a directed statement because it wasn't directed at activities you partake in... this time.

And, again, I'm simply saying that with so much of this discussion having the qualifier of defining infidelity as being where all of the parties haven't consented, she may have assumed that was understood and left the qualifier off. And, having that doubt, I'd prefer to ask if it was her intent to call consenting parties shits or if she really meant just those who go behind their partner's backs.

If she meant that someone whose partner says, "sure, honey, go bang so-and-so", then I have issue with the position -- if she meant just those who sneak, lie and betray, then I support it; because that does harm, not only to the betrayed partner, but often to every future relationship that partner may have.

There is "no reason" to do something that so betrays the trust of someone you've made a pledge to.

[Ragoczy]

Tis true denuseri. It always amazes me how narrow minded bdsm-ers can be when talking about someone else's kink... or a limit that they have that isn't on someone else's limit list.

Would you not agree that there's a different between a consensual, open relationship and a circumstance where one partner believes the relationship is monogamous and the other is betraying that trust?

[Daumon]

Hi denuseri,

First you are critical of qualities in yourself that are charming and very admirable. You seem to show more concern for others than yourself.

Second, you people often get into relationships for a misguided or wrong reasons. Before you are ready to share yourself and life with someone you have to really know and understand yourself. Otherwise you find as many unhappy surpised in a relationship of your making as your partner. Its best not to be discovering yourself when your trying to balance a relationship.

any relationship is built around trust, faith and understanding. Friendship, dating, marriage or D/s relationships all need these. Alot of what happens in a relationship depend on the expections you start with and what changes you are willing to accept to stay in one. You spoke of the woman being crtizied for staying in an abusive relationship. That the poeople writtinmg in could not accpet or understand her staying despite the abuse to try and work things out. Society now does not seem to be willing to allow anyone to make judgement calls on thier own any more. In such a relationship a person has the right to weigh the fear and danger of abuse against the value they place in the person and relastionship they are trying to keep. As an adult we have that right and responcablity to make those judgement calls ourselves. Its far to often that people want to cut and run in any relationship at the first sign of trouble.

Now as to infidelity in a relationship. YOU really like hard questions dont you.
In an ideal world two people would fill each outhers needs completely and neither would need or want anything serious outside their relationship. However , both men and woman each have resons to look outside their choosen partner for a need thats not being completely met. So, the first thing that hits most poeple is that they are failing to make their partner happy. So they have the guilt of failing to make them happy mixed with fear and anger because they worry 'whats wrong with me .... why cannt they be happy with me?' So you have to ask yourself do you and your partner have an exclusive relationship. Do you know for sure they understand it and want that too. Do you have a closed relationship or an open one? If the issue has NEVER come up or been discusssed EXPECT that your partner assumes its open. The expectation is that in a BDSM relationship you can play around since you already are WAY outside of normal conventions. So the question is how does it affect you once your partner ends up with someone else. Was it just sex, a meaningless fling or a one time mistake. Do you accpet their word it will never happen again if they evne promise it? What if they tell you its now the first time and not liekly the last? Is that the end of the relationship? Is it a deal breaker? it goes back to the adult value call. Is the infidility worth the relationship you want to have. is it worth excepting as part of the reality of what the relationship really is. Each person need sto dexice if it is for them. I wish you luck in making such a choice and living with it once made.

Daumon

[hopperboo]

Would you not agree that there's a different between a consensual, open relationship and a circumstance where one partner believes the relationship is monogamous and the other is betraying that trust?

Yup.



And just to add in my two cents about the judgments...everyone judges. It's healthy to judge. To form opinions. It doesn't mean one has to be nasty about it. People judge in different ways. Some people judge on moral values, religious values, and some people judge on judging others. lol. If you can follow that.

I believe there is little to none of us that never judge a person. I have found that many who are screaming "don't judge me, I don't judge you" really ARE judging just as (if not more) harshly those people that form opinions right away.

(And like I said, just because a person forms an opinion and will not be swayed doesn't make them a bad person, nor do their opinions need to be shared in a mean or hurtful way).

[denuseri]

Daumon i must admit you post confused the heck out of me,, is the whole thing addresed to me or just part???

i am indeed wondering where i spoke in this thread about a woman being critisized for stayng in an abuseive relationship, as well as allmost everything else mentioned in the rest of Sir's post.

[Faibhar]

Please, say it isn't so!

[Daumon]

Denuseri,

My apologies ... the post was in responce to damyanti origioan post and some how i got your name by mistake.

[jeanne]

I think you've made yourself very clear. Perhaps not in ways you intended...but a by-product of harsh, black-and-white, judgemental, caustic, ugly, name-calling statements is that others see you more clearly than you might like.

Thanks for sharing!

[Ozme52]

Thanks for clarifying... I hope you see how being imprecise can lead to misperceptions...

So on to the rest.

So those who commit to love... and stop loving...
Those who commit to honor... and stop honoring...
Those who commit to cherish... and stop cherishing...

That's all okay. And the person who sees all the other vows broken, who may have children to consider, who may not be financially ready to leave, who may even be abused... he or she is a selfish dog for looking for companionship?

Sorry but YOU, are empty of compassion.

[Ragoczy]

I think you've made yourself very clear. Perhaps not in ways you intended...but a by-product of harsh, black-and-white, judgemental, caustic, ugly, name-calling statements is that others see you more clearly than you might like.

Thanks for sharing!

So you see nothing wrong or at all worthy of rebuke in someone betraying a trust and causing hurt to those who trust them?

[IAmCanadian]

Thanks for clarifying... I hope you see how being imprecise can lead to misperceptions...

I'm pretty sure she was saying "clarifying" ironically since she wasn't being unclear in the first place. You took the most farfetched interpretation of her remarks possible, and then argued against it.

So on to the rest.

So those who commit to love... and stop loving...
Those who commit to honor... and stop honoring...
Those who commit to cherish... and stop cherishing...

That's all okay. And the person who sees all the other vows broken, who may have children to consider, who may not be financially ready to leave, who may even be abused... he or she is a selfish dog for looking for companionship?

Sorry but YOU, are empty of compassion.

If you want to argue against some mystery person who is flat-out saying that a person in the situation you described should be condemned, then maybe you should start your own thread, and argue against yourself, and the straw-man you keep pulling out of nowhere.

She isn't making the argument that you just described. Nobody here is making it. You are actually just making this position up out of thin air, and then arguing against it.

EDIT: But I could be wrong since she just posted this:

Oh my God you think it's okay for someone to cheat on their spouse just because they treat them bad? Not only is that stupid but it's immature.

This is closer to the argument you suspected was hiding behind her words. But it certainly wasn't present at the time you posted.

[Ragoczy]

So those who commit to love... and stop loving...
Those who commit to honor... and stop honoring...
Those who commit to cherish... and stop cherishing...

That's all okay. And the person who sees all the other vows broken, who may have children to consider, who may not be financially ready to leave, who may even be abused... he or she is a selfish dog for looking for companionship?

Sorry but YOU, are empty of compassion.

So those who still love ... but don't know they're unloved in return ...
Those who still honor ... but are betrayed ...
Those who still cherish ... but are reviled ...

For that other person's selfish "needs" are to be left in ignorance, working hard to support someone "not financially ready to leave" ... whose trust is betrayed and who's lied to every day ... they somehow, what, deserve what they get?

I have compassion for the innocent.

You throw abuse and broken vows out there, but that, itself, is an inherent betrayal of trust and commitment, and not the norm.

If one stops loving, stops honoring, stops cherishing ... fine, move on, but at least have the courtesy to say so -- after all, if one decides to move on with one's life, doesn't the other party deserve the chance to do the same? Rather than be kept in the dark and used for financial support, thinking they have a relationship?

There's a corollary to "an ye harm none, do as ye will" -- that being "if it harms someone ... don't freakin' do it!"

[Ragoczy]

EDIT: But I could be wrong since she just posted this:



This is closer to the argument you suspected was hiding behind her words. But it certainly wasn't present at the time you posted.

I think the point being made was along the lines of "don't sneak around". End the relationship first, which eliminates the subsequent acts as infidelity.

[Ozme52]

Sure it was F.S. ... and I only regret saying she was without compassion...

because now I really can't complain for her calling me stupid.

FS. Too bad I was right, however, that what you claim was unsaid until just now... was clearly obvious to me.

and my "strawman" as you call it, was a question. Posed to her to obtain further clarification. And she made it clear, there are NO Reasons that disqualify those who find happiness where they can... from being low down dogs.

I guess it's okay for you to assume what she means but not okay for me to actually ask.

[hopperboo]

I agree with Raz's post.

It isn't okay for someone to seek out a sexual relationship when in a committed relationship. (imho).

I think there are times in some relationships when cheating does happen, and it may happen for a more valid reason than some. Hopefully when that does happen the couple is able to get by it and still have a strong relationship.

However...if one cheats in a relationship and has no problems in doing so, nor any care to fix or end the current marriage or committed relationship then I agree with Bambina. As for children, that is just more of a reason to work harder with the partner to fix things...not to run away. And as for the men and women that cheat out of purely selfish reasons that have children and a spouse to think of...ugh. THOSE are the people that deserve to be called slime.



A close family friend of mine was in that situation with four children and her husband stepped out of the marriage - ongoing for two years. When she finally 'caught' him she said she wanted to work on the marriage, they went to counseling...but he wouldn't stop. That isn't a decent man. Do I have compassion for him? No. Do I feel bad for not feeling compassion for him? Absolutely not. He ripped those kids lives apart, not to mention his wife's.

And here's another kicker. The other woman was married with five children.

Nice couple of people right?

[Ozme52]

I guess I'm done with this thread... as the more people chime in and feel it's okay to call others dogs and slime, the less interested I am in the discussion.

I will repeat. I ONLY commented on the tone of the post.

[bambina]

I call them like I see them....

[FrozenGrapes]

[SnickerKitten]

So those who commit to love... and stop loving...
Those who commit to honor... and stop honoring...
Those who commit to cherish... and stop cherishing...

That's all okay. And the person who sees all the other vows broken, who may have children to consider, who may not be financially ready to leave, who may even be abused... he or she is a selfish dog for looking for companionship?

Sorry but YOU, are empty of compassion.

So, according to what you say, it would have been perfectly okay for me to "find companionship" while still married to my ex-husband???
Stop loving him? Oh hell yeah, when his bipolar ass went off his meds and he stopped going to therapy and started escalating his behaviors, I definately stopped loving him.
Stop honoring him??? After he had told me that his father molested him as a child and his father wasn't to be around our child... to go off his meds and decide that it was ok for his father to be around her - what was there to honor in a man that would do that to his child????
Stop cherishing him?? There were a myriad of reasons to stop cherishing him.

So the way I should have taken care of myself in that situation would have been to hunt up some "companionship" on the side? Why? To make myself as bad as him, but in a different way?

Did I have children to consider? Yes, I had two. After having lost that much faith in the idiot I had married I should have reduced myself by being unfaithful but remaining married??? Not financially ready to leave? Oh believe me, I was in NO way financially ready to leave. Abused? Oh good heavens was I ever verbally abused- he only physically abused me once and believe me I made it abundantly clear by giving him a concussion that that wasn't going continue... so when he was so frustrated at not being able to hit me he turned to our daughter and dragged her down the hall by her ankle so her shirt rode up and she got rug burn on her back- the scar from which took YEARS to fade. But I should have stayed and gotten myself a fuckbuddy????

I seriously would have been justified in having an affair???? Like hell.

What I did was the right thing- the ONLY acceptable thing to do in a situation like that. I kicked his ass to the curb. I sent him home to his mommy and daddy.

THEN and ONLY then did I seek out and find companionship.

When I found that companionship, I was clear up front with each and every contact I made that I had NOOOOO intention of forming a monogamous relationship, that "dating" and "playing" were as far as it was going to go.

Damn that freak Ragoczy for getting under my skin and making me need to be monogamous with him. Damn him again for wanting to marry me. I wanted to NEVER be married again but faced with the choice of being married to him or ruining what we had -I chose marriage (and a collar) with all it's accoutrements INCLUDING fidelity.

Now, if his marvelous self were to change from the amazing, wonderful, caring, beloved, controlling, micro-managing, Domly person that he is into an abusive jerk or an unfaithful bastard then you damn well better believe I won't be out there finding a "companion" to comfort myself. I'll be kicking his ass to the curb- FIRST.

I'm with Bambina- someone that breaks the pact of fidelity without their partners knowledge and consent is lower than lobster shit.

*snuggling back up to Ragoczy's knees and going back to being his happy subby*

-kitten

[damyanti]

Hi Daumon

First you are critical of qualities in yourself that are charming and very admirable. You seem to show more concern for others than yourself.

Its charming that you think they are, but they don't make life easy.

Second, you people often get into relationships for a misguided or wrong reasons. Before you are ready to share yourself and life with someone you have to really know and understand yourself. Otherwise you find as many unhappy surpised in a relationship of your making as your partner. Its best not to be discovering yourself when your trying to balance a relationship.

I think its kind of fun to discover things together...if you get into the relationship for the right reasons and that those reasons are clear to both parties.

any relationship is built around trust, faith and understanding. Friendship, dating, marriage or D/s relationships all need these. Alot of what happens in a relationship depend on the expections you start with and what changes you are willing to accept to stay in one.

Just said that, but you say it better.

You spoke of the woman being crtizied for staying in an abusive relationship. That the poeople writtinmg in could not accpet or understand her staying despite the abuse to try and work things out. Society now does not seem to be willing to allow anyone to make judgement calls on thier own any more. In such a relationship a person has the right to weigh the fear and danger of abuse against the value they place in the person and relastionship they are trying to keep. As an adult we have that right and responcablity to make those judgement calls ourselves. Its far to often that people want to cut and run in any relationship at the first sign of trouble.

*nodding a lot*

Now as to infidelity in a relationship. YOU really like hard questions dont you.

Yes, yes I do, lol. But you said you find that charming, , lol.

In an ideal world two people would fill each outhers needs completely and neither would need or want anything serious outside their relationship. However , both men and woman each have resons to look outside their choosen partner for a need thats not being completely met. So, the first thing that hits most poeple is that they are failing to make their partner happy. So they have the guilt of failing to make them happy mixed with fear and anger because they worry 'whats wrong with me .... why cannt they be happy with me?'

(I'm a girl, so I speak from female perspective.) What is often the biggest problem is when people are less than open with what they want, where they stand and how they really feel. Its a nice sentiment, trying to spare other persons feelings, but shouldn't we be more adult at being able to say "You are nice, but you are not my type" instead of dating and going from one phase to another, until you end up married to a person (because thats expected) who isn't your true partner, with whom you are staying out of convenience, but always keeping your one eye open for the next best thing?

If you are not sure about "the person" being perfect for you (while not being perfect) and willing to preserve in the relationship at all cost, why bother marrying at all? (No, I am not making a judgment call for others, and I know its not applicable to society at large, but in my own personal matters I tend to be illogical and follow my gut instinct...so the thought continues to nag at me).


So you have to ask yourself do you and your partner have an exclusive relationship. Do you know for sure they understand it and want that too.

A very good point...and something I find not easy to do. If I ask for just a bit of a clarification..."he" assumes I am putting him on the spot, and far, far worse has a tendency to go with the flow (unless he already has something "better" going) and say what he thinks I want to hear.

Do you have a closed relationship or an open one? If the issue has NEVER come up or been discusssed EXPECT that your partner assumes its open.

Not to dispute that many people practice that...I disagree. Its like "assuming guilt, before proving innocence", rather than giving benefit of the doubt about the person "being innocent, until proven guilty", no?

I tend to believe that generally, unless discussed otherwise, monogamy is implied as the default setting, in dating, but especially in marriage or similar commitment. I do understand what you are saying and that a lot of people use it as a "justification card", but I still feel its wrong...what grates me the most, I find the lack of honesty terribly annoying.

There is a saying, which I think sounds cool, "I caught him the old fashioned way - with manipulation", but is completely opposite of the way I am. And I think a lot of men subscribe to it. I like things to be clear. Playing is fun, but being "played"...if I didn't want to hear the answer, I wouldn't ask the question, and yet when I ask "him" to be honest I often get the feeling he is giving me a "sure you do" look and he proceeds to tell me what he thinks will get him what he wants.

The expectation is that in a BDSM relationship you can play around since you already are WAY outside of normal conventions.

True, but it doesn't change the fact its faulty logic and makes me label them "not worth my time".

So the question is how does it affect you once your partner ends up with someone else.

I hope I never have to deal with that, though statistic is against me...hence my caution with commitment to the point of phobia. I am not averse to it (at least I hope I wouldn't be), but I feel no desperate need (like some of my friends) to pair up just for the sake of it...perhaps I am an odd one out, but I prefer to be single, than make a commitment I will regret later.

Was it just sex, a meaningless fling or a one time mistake. Do you accpet their word it will never happen again if they evne promise it? What if they tell you its now the first time and not liekly the last? Is that the end of the relationship? Is it a deal breaker? it goes back to the adult value call. Is the infidility worth the relationship you want to have. is it worth excepting as part of the reality of what the relationship really is. Each person need sto dexice if it is for them. I wish you luck in making such a choice and living with it once made.

Again, I hope its a choice I never have to make ("he" I talk about is hypothetical one), but I know myself pretty well. Would I approve, no. Would I forgive, that depends on him making amends. Would I tolerate his philandering ways - yes.

What would be the deal breaker...is him lying to me about it (or anything else), me hearing it from someone else other than him, him not being honest. I can forgive (almost) anything, except lying. If he lied, I would leave him.

Would I divorce him? (Ok, this is going to get some people upset, so I cant stress enough, that I am talking only in reference to myself). If we only had a civil ceremony - then yes, no big deal.

But (as its likely it would have been the case)if we had had a religious ceremony...if you take vows in front of (whatever) God, I don't think you can divorce. So if you are doing it, you better be sure its something you can live with forever. Of course you can pretend it is no longer valid, but I don't think it works like that.

Thank you for your comment, I really enjoyed reading your sentiments.

D

[hopperboo]

+1 on calling them like one sees them.

It's one thing to have compassion, for someone, and yes, I personally could have compassion for a cheater in some situations, however in others...one just has to call them as they come.

Some men are slime. Some women are slime. It's not being mean - it's just the hard truth.

Any man or woman who would abandon their spouse/partner and children for no reason other than selfishness is not a decent person.

Tolerance, acceptance and compassion only go so far before one's own morals and values start running down the tube too. There has to be a line drawn. imho.

[AdrianaAurora]

Hmm, not sure I wont to get involved with this discussion, because I most certainly dont care what anyone thinks about my relationship with my husband, (though, they are free to judge all they like).

My husband and I are EXTREMELY close; our views on communication and honesty seem to be pretty close, damyanti - but life, and relationships, are not black and white.

We have agreed on not being monogamous, but we were, for the longest time.

The agreement however was just about sex, I never could have imagined falling in love with someone else or meeting someone who could even begin to measure up to my Husband.

Then, without going into details now (I already touched up on that in my other posts), we had some issues and were spending a lot of time apart, when I met someone else. And I started to fall for that someone.

From the point of where I am today, I find it hard to relate to the mind frame I was in at the time. I liked that other guy, very much. He was fulfilling the need, was in possession of traits my husband doesn't have - and us having problems, made it very easy for me to loose sight of some things.

What I did do differently than most, I went to my Husband, BEFORE I slept with the other guy. He wasn't happy, - saying He granted permission would not be quite right, but He did accept it.

I agonized over doing that to Him, all the time in the begging - but we were spending a lot of time apart, and I was spending a lot of time with the other guy, and its amazing how much easier it gets with time. Its almost as if you go numb to certain "values".

The affair lasted about 9 months, during that time Hubby had sex with other women. Usually when away in US on business. I never asked Him for the details, I don't want to know.

What got us through: He never dominated other women, and other than a rare play spanking I never indulged into bdsm, let alone submit to the other guy. Tristan and I still talked, we still remained partners, a team, in other (intellectual) matters. I was still His wife. And, as rare as that was, when we were together we still had sex, it kept us connected.

But as much as I fancied the other guy, and as high feelings floated in the beginning, as time went on, reality began to set in. We had no future. Cultural differences, family incompatibility, differing tempers - I cared for him, but it wasn't going to work in the long run. I am thankful I had the sense to keep that in sight.

When he started to talk about me "committing" to him, I knew I had to end it. While an odd fleeting thought crossed my mind, I NEVER seriously contemplated divorce. That simply wasn't a choice (my Husband doesn't believe in Church divorce either, its a Catholic thing, I guess, lol). For me, it was knowing, that despite of it all, He is my right life partner; and not being able to walk away from my stepson (who I raised as my own).

We moved past it. But while we were honest, and that meant a lot, and I argued your points in my defense at the time, and to other people and its how we were able to make peace with it, there is no guilt or resentment...

But let me confess something here - it WAS cheating. We stayed loyal, we stayed honest, we "preserved" - but it was still a BETRAYAL.

Its not an easy matter of right or wrong. I am not sorry for the time I spent with that man. I am sorry for causing hurt to Tristan. I am glad for knowing, that now we can survive anything, that we are forever and that he is forever my choice. The experience brought us so close, its hard to describe. I now know He will never leave me and in a way it helped me to trust Him completely and to submit fully, without reserve, without holding back. So yes, being honest does help in preserving trust - but it isn't a permission that its all right to do it.

For us, that is now in the past. We never said it specifically, but (while an odd sex fling might be tolerated, its unlikely either of us will indulge in it ever, and certainly not anytime soon) monogamy is now implied.

[annie]

Glad to see that the "respect" which is the number 1 standard rule here is going so strongly in this thread...

[AdrianaAurora]

I cant answer for others. I can tell you what happened with us.

What Tristan did, yes, that was just sex. I know who he did it with, and I like those women. He treated them well, but in the end He only has one wife and sub and they knew where they stood with Him. To be fair, He only did it, because I wasn't there.

With me, it wasn't about sex. Tristan and I argued a lot about where to live, we had differing points on where to go on with our lives, He placed His career first, though He promised to scale back. He is older than me, we had been through some tough shit, and when things calmed down, I was feeling stifled, insecure, my life wasn't what it was supposed to be...

So I met this man. Physically, unlike my Husband, my type. Incredibly witty, wonderful self deprecating sense of humor - wheres Tristan has none. He does the ton of charity work, not just money, but time, Tristan sends a check or two to an organization or two a year. All of that appealed to me very much. He was softer, more open, kinder, gentler, - and most importantly, with him I didn't have to deal with the problems I faced with Tristan, he was safe and interesting.

A lot of it also has to do with variety, doesn't mean you don't love or want to replace what you have. And it flattered me, to have such a man as conquest. So I fancied myself in love. But when the novelty wears off, you realize (at least I have) that there is only one person I can live with.

That there is only one man who can handle me, completely. Only one man to whom I belong to. Only one who owns me. Only one I love TRULY.

Yes, Tristan is quiet and has no sense of humor - but I LOVE that about Him, it complements my nature, it soothes me. No one is so attentive, so irreverent of me as Him. He is smart. He is strong. He may not show His emotions as openly as others, but I love being the only one to whom He confides. I LOVE my Husband. He is perfect for me. But we are all humans, we get caught up in situations - but we learn from them. Haven't you ever been depressed, in that dark place- where you know its wrong, but you want something so much you go crazy from desperation? Thats the best way I can put it.

As for serial philanderers who lie and live a double life, I have no idea.

[Ragoczy]

But let me confess something here - it WAS cheating. We stayed loyal, we stayed honest, we "preserved" - but it was still a BETRAYAL.

Thank you for sharing such a difficult and personal situation.

I'm going to express my opinion on what you described for purposes of this thread and hope I say nothing to offend you, because that's truly not my intent.

You've characterized this as cheating and betrayal, and, as I've said before, whether something is or not is wholly between those involved, but my opinion on this specific situation is that it was not. The sequence of events, as I read them, seems to have been:

You were operating within an agreed upon set of parameters;
Something unexpected happened, which you had not actively and consciously sought out;
Rather than pursuing that behind your husband's back, you and he worked to come up with new parameters to deal with the different situation;
You moved forward within the agreed upon parameters;

I'm sure the reality wasn't as ... tidy as that, but I wouldn't react to it as infidelity. If my kitten came to me with a similar situation, I'd be angry and hurt, but more at the situation than at her. It would be difficult, but not in the way that actively pursuing and hiding it would be.

What you described sounds like how mature adults would handle a situation like that: "oh, shit, what do we do now"; rather than selfish children: "I will hide it and get what I want no matter who it might hurt".

[Ragoczy]

Glad to see that the "respect" which is the number 1 standard rule here is going so strongly in this thread...

"Respect" isn't unconditional and there are some acts which strike a strong, negative chord with people.

If a child-molester or rapist came here and started describing his exploits, would you "respect" him or speak out against him? No, I am not implying a moral equivalency between these and infidelity, but they are all things that some people consider to be wrong. Good people, when faced with wrong, speak out against it.

[annie]

"Respect" isn't unconditional and there are some acts which strike a strong, negative chord with people.

If a child-molester or rapist came here and started describing his exploits, would you "respect" him or speak out against him? No, I am not implying a moral equivalency between these and infidelity, but they are all things that some people consider to be wrong. Good people, when faced with wrong, speak out against it.

Opinions can be stated without being nasty about it though... even strong ones.

[Ragoczy]

Opinions can be stated without being nasty about it though... even strong ones.

Granted, in general, but this is a sensitive, personal topic and that tends to bring out the emotion. I'm sure there are some real-life experiences that contribute to the strong feelings; probably some who had a partner who was unfaithful and others who may, right now, be hiding their participation in this community from a spouse. Displaced anger or defensiveness, either one gets people emotional.

On the other hand, I like a heated debate with high emotions, so I didn't see much that would keep me from taking anyone in the thread out for a beer after the discussion.

[cadence]

Granted, in general, but this is a sensitive, personal topic and that tends to bring out the emotion. I'm sure there are some real-life experiences that contribute to the strong feelings; probably some who had a partner who was unfaithful and others who may, right now, be hiding their participation in this community from a spouse. Displaced anger or defensiveness, either one gets people emotional.

On the other hand, I like a heated debate with high emotions, so I didn't see much that would keep me from taking anyone in the thread out for a beer after the discussion.

Of course it is a sensitive subject, but someone brought it upon themselves to bring up the subject of cheating on a partner, and took it upon themselves to denounce and degrade anyone who would dare even think about it. I haven't read through all of the posts but I haven't seen any other posts come close to being disrespectful to anyone else.

I don't mind reading or participating in heated subjects, I rarely post to them, as I am ill equiped in the fine art of informal logic.

I am fine with others having an opinion, everyone is entitled to thiers, I am fine with people being judgemental, they are also entitled to have thier say.
However I believe that there is a distinct difference in judging others and doing it in a way that does not promote sweeping generalizations.
There is a difference when someone measures thier words carefully and doesn't speak them in vain. Personal preference and tastes, should be kept quiet.
Then there is a person who believes that they have full reign to "fully speak thier mind" regardless as to how they do it.
It's childish and rude.
That may make me a hypocrite and judgemental as well, but I don't put up with name calling and abuse towards others.
Being judgemental in this fashion typically calls out to individuals or groups and labels them.
A person can have a strong opinion, but they should use tact and discrection while doing it.

[denuseri]

Adriana i commend you on your bravery and honesty in the very personal post you made about your situation sweetie.

<<beams warm supportive feelings your way

I hope and pray that all will be well for you and yours in a manner that "works" for all.

hugs and kissess
denuseri