Why do many BDSM people look down on switches?

[thir]

What I find aggravating is the new trend (at least hereabouts, in Germany), that all of a sudden the majority of people seem to think EVERYBODY is basically a switch, and they try and force that opinion unto others like me, who has not a switching bone in her body.
They are extremely patronizing, and they (not that I had asked their opinion) run around, announcing everyone who does not switch is "suppressing" that other half, and has a problem, and should try it, or rather, the partner one is with should let his partner try it.

ROTFWL

- same problem, with the pendulum swung the other way round.

Sorry, I have taken So much shit for being Switch I could not help feeling - hmm... let's move on here..

Obviously no one wants to be patronized or told what they are really like if only they could see it..and the problem remains the same.

Only solution I can see is to let people damn well decide for themselves what they are and what they want. They are the only ones who know.

And I do not believe half of the switches who run around nowadays are for real.

<grin>

I think it must be hard to be fulfilled in a relationship where you get only half of what you want.
The idea of playing outside the relationship is not an option for everyone, either (it certainly wouldn´t be ok for me).

It seems to me that many here are doing very well, I do not think you need worry. To me it has been a revelation to meet so many and happy switches, and my first reaction after coming here was a feeling of getting my head above water and inhaling a huge mouthful of fresh air after long suffocation. I was high as a kite for weeks!
THANK YOU for being here, guys :-))))))))))))))))))))))

In my situation I normally do not shift power relations with the same partners for the same reason already said: Some people pull at one side, and some at the other. I have two committed relationships (poly), and when I get better I will get my subs and oh how I look forward to that. Others have other solutions.

My sub side is the most difficult by far, while my dominant side comes easily. But I can sub 100% to the right person, and my previous subs were in no doubt that I am 100% dominant. I know it is hard to grasp, but nevertheless that is how it is.

[Diablo]

It may have something to do with a complete top or bottom not being able to understand being able to switch. And any insult may be unintentional. I could never submit so switching seems alien to me. There is nothing wrong with it just not my cup of tea.

[Spankmeplease2009]

I think it is like anything else, there are always going to be some people who think things should be a certain way and if it is not that way, then they think it is fake or wrong or something. I have always thought people who think that way are not worth getting mad over.

It also may just be that some people are so involved with being either a top or a bottom that switching seems unthinkable to them. It may not be that they are intentionally being insulting or anything of that sort.

[Apexsandman]

This question (the one the thread is all about) comes up a lot. For me, anyway, I switch because I want to be able to experience the full range of erotic possibilities. I enjoy sexual power exchange in too many and varied ways to want to be limited to one role only. The saying used to be "your kink is ok." Well, my kink tends not to stay put. I'm ok with that, whether others are or not, but it does complicate finding the "right" partner to be with.

[leo9]

Well, my kink tends not to stay put. I'm ok with that, whether others are or not, but it does complicate finding the "right" partner to be with.

In my purely personal opinion, being a serious switch, like being fully bisexual, almost necessarily implies some kind of polyamory. You might be lucky enough to find someone who can be everthing you need, but your chances are an order of magnitude better if you don't try to get it all at the one shop.

For me, being able to sub is not the same as needing to: it's a possibility I'm aware of, something that might happen one day if I should meet someone who pulls at that side of my nature. But it's not an unfulfilled need, the way I feel I'm missing something if I don't get to beat and rape a man now and then.

[GreyWolf-25]

I suppose it's for the same reasons that bisexuals are not accepted among the gay and lesbian community.

[TheLimey]

An interesting discussion, and one that led me back a few years.

Growing up my fantasies were on the sub side.if they involved BDSM at all. however, in the first long relationship I had, we both switched.

However, it wasn't as satisfying for me to sub, so that slowly went to full dom.

I've switched once since then, and didn't enjoy it at all, and now I ID as Dom.

I can't see myself subbing for anyone now. However, I wouldn't look down on someone for being a switch. Are we really that broad and widespread a church that we can split like that?

[Sheling]

I've skimmed this thread (It's LONG and I'm time-pressed!) so my apologies in advance if I reiterate points already made.

I am not new to the concept of bondage, power-play, control and all that - most of my fantasies since almost childhood have involved either doing or having done to me something that involves something from those categories. Very much as with the moment I finally understood that I was bisexual, there was no grand epiphany for me; no anxiety or existential crisis as I struggle to redefine myself. It was simply a case of my thinking "Ooooh, that's what that is!" and carrying on.

My first experience came with a friend I was madly attracted to online. Now I read back the transcripts it becomes apparent that we'd been circling (ever-so-coolly) toward intimacy almost form the start. However, while I'd found sites like hogtied.com and stuff fascinating, I'd never pictured myself in those ropes. Until DTB (Dom to be) turned up. Pretty fast we were in an online partnership which I explored (and still explore) to the full. But more than that, it's about the dynamic; the trust at the time (I know... online shenanigans; entirely different topic. But, briefly, I'll just say that if you give yourself to the moment, it really doesn't matter where it happens) and the way we talked about it - and each other - after.

In life, I've always been a fairly assertive, dominant person. That's partly through character and partly through the fact that I'm a 6' tall woman with Amazonian build: when people defer to you constantly, you tend to expect them to. I tend to be independent, willful, decisive and resentful of compromise: these are all dominant traits.

So the fact that I found myself so utterly taken by these new ideas was, perhaps, the greatest surprise of all.

As I mentioned before, I am still new to the scene and my exact classification or label is yet undetermined; I deeply enjoy subbing for DTB, and for a while I wondered whether it wasn't the relinquishing of control itself that was the taboo for me; the pitch-and-roll of the excitement.

But the more I think about it and explore the scene in general; the more I talk to other people and discuss it with DTB it strikes me that, actually, that's not it at all. I still do want to domme; I still want to assert myself sexually - and now I think about it, I've been trying to do that for years with various partners who, while aroused by my commands and demands, were also somewhat bewildered by them. This bemusement held me back from both exploring my impulses more profoundly and trying to identify what it was they were pointing to.

Now, however, the cat is out of the bag and I am free to roam. And roam I shall!

This notion of "switching" feels uncomfortable to me. The anxiety we have to give ourselves an easy-to-read label strikes me as somewhat ironic (if not at times blatantly hypocritical) in a group of people as apparently open-minded and exploratory as we are. Fine, we need to know where we stand when we mix, but I am still left in the dark about why such rigid standards should exist at all. Let alone as to why people who straddle both sides of the line are - once again - talked about as if it's a lack of commitment or an inability to choose that finds them in such a position.

In this there are [i]clear[i] parallels to be made with the LGBT community - another group of people who strive for equality and acceptance and yet, even within their own grouping, manage to treat those who are neither one thing nor the other as if they are somehow "less than". I've always said "When I'm with a girl, I'm gay; when I'm with a guy, I'm straight. And when I'm with both, I'm fucking delirious."

That is to say that I don't get down and dirty with a woman and find myself wishing she had a cock. Nor do I get into things with a man and wished that his kiss was softer or that his hips were rounder or any of the other stuff I love about girls. It's not a lack of commitment or an inability to choose on my part; I like both - why should I have to choose at all?

I have had but a single experience as a domme. And it was enough to make it clear that, yes, this is something I really ought to be playing with, too. Not because I feel that to be a better sub I need to understand how it feels to dominate; not because I need to balance my powerlessness with one person with a sense of power with someone else but because I believe that I can bring peace, pleasure and compassion to someone by doing it, and by doing so, enjoy it myself.

And as with sleeping with men or women, I didn't find myself wishing that she would fight back or whatever, just as I don't hope for the chance to make choices or pick the pace when I'm a sub. As I said before, it's not an inability to choose; I've made my choice; I enjoy both. And perhaps coming to understand both will ultimately heighten my own experience as well as those that I play with in the future, but that's really beside the point.

Because the point here, really, should be that our preferences for domming, subbing or switching should absolutely never be used to define our status within the wider community. We're all so proud of our acceptance of other people's quirks here, all so eager to welcome in new people and "show them the ropes". Until it's discovered that said newbie is a switch. And then, and I'm afraid it's happened to me already (twice!), the cold shoulders are turned and the sneers are carefully hidden, but still apparent.

It's unacceptable and it's surely completely against what the BDSM community is meant to be about. To expect people to be one or the other is as relevant to things as someone's rope colour preferences; that is, not at all.

[thisisme]

I didn't know that switches are looked down upon by many until I read this post and I concur with the "mindset" explanation. However it's not surprising that people's minds change a lot over time so it's not strange to be in one mood at a moment and in the other later.
Moreover, I don't even take it as serious as that so my view of being a switch is just like playing different positions when playing football. Sure many people have their favorite positions, but who says I can't play forward at times and defensive midfielder when I feel like so? As long as I'm just doing it for fun and my teammates are satisfied I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

[Fiera]

I think being a switch is just like being bisexual it makes people think you are confused. However, having said that I would like to state that I am a switch and I am bisexual and to me that just shows an open mind.

A mind that is willing and wanting to explore it all. I know what I like and I like a little bit of everything. It ultimately makes me a better Dom and a better sub.

Good to be confused I guess.

[RickBulow74]

As one who had initially brought this topic up in another post, I am liking the feedback from those in the community. Many people feel that being a switch is not natural, even going so far to say that people are either one or the other and there is no middle ground. As I think a few had mentioned here, a sub is not automatically submissive to EVERY single Dom and vice versa. As such it is logical to be a switch in my mind.

[socal_dan]

I don't know about the middle ground, I'm not really sure I can relate to that at all. I'm mostly top oriented, but I have some very specific fantasies I'd like to try as a sub. I'm really not sure if I'd call myself a switch or perhaps switch-curious?

I can understand other people being frustrated by thinking they're not going to be everything you need, or that you won't reasonably fit their relationship. If I found a domme to try subbing for I would expect some kind of annoyance (maybe not the right word?) for thinking I might break the exchange of power. But I'm a firm believer that each relationship is different, and can fill different roles in your life; you don't necessarily need to be poly for that to work... I mean, most of us have had vanilla relationships also, and those often satisfy a different part of what we want in a relationship.

[Secretside247]

I disagree. I don't think it's that complicated. I can be both, depending on who I'm doing this with..If they like to be controlled...Then I can be the meanest bitch there is, but if they like to controll, I can also be a submissive slave. I prefer to be sub, but if Im asked to be domme...I just picture how I would like my domme to be, and that works for me. But, Im new to this....So who knows.

[MstrWolf_ncs_lilbrat]

i could never be a switch, but i don't know if it is my personality or the fact that i identify as slave that dictates this boundary for me. i don't like telling people what to do, and i don't like controlling others. i wouldn't punish, and i don't enjoy being served. So i would make the worst mistress ever. i think it has some to do with how proficient you want to be in a role...for instance, a person who is content with a moderate amount of knowledge should probably not have much trouble being a switch; on the other hand, someone who wanted to perfect a role would have a much harder time, because there are so many things to learn, practice, and remember.

i have a terrible memory. Even if i would make a decent mistress, and even if being in control wasn't an issue, and i felt comfortable in that role, there's no way i could do a good job as a switch just on that fact alone.

i absolutely hate condescension. There is no reason to ever look down on someone because they are one way or another, or in this case, both. i mean, in a community where vanilla people look down on us, why divide ourselves more by looking down on those whom we might not understand or with whom we might disagree? Instead of looking at our differences and using those to divide ourselves, we should use them to unite; after all, isn't the common thread between all of us the fact that we are different from vanilla relationships?

[FaerieLytes]

personally? who cares? i mean really... i am a submissive to men and a Domme to women, my reasoning? because i am overprotective of whats mine even if that person happens to have collared me, any female brought in would be under my control first, and taught to please as i do...

or maybe because im Bi and a control freak i want to top women but expect men to be Dominant for me ehh... either way my parents always told me that bisexuals were fucked in the head and pagans were damned to hell so maybe im fucked in the head and going to hell but im gonna have fun before it happens! so who cares what people think , none of them will ever be you, so they cant know what YOU are or how worthy YOU are, just live your life and have fun.

maybe i rambled... this happens...

[darinna]

As a switch here I can tell you that some of the reactions I have gotten are bizarre. I have been told that I am just "confused" "not serious" or really just need the right Master. I've also been told by dom/mes that they won't go with switches because "they always try to flip you". And it is very parallel to the reactions I get as a bisexual in other fora. Not to say that this is the most common reaction, but it happens often enough.

I think many of the ideas others have brought up are quite valid, but there is one that I don't think I have seen yet, and that is performance anxiety. Once (not here in the library) I had someone tell me that they would not ever think of topping me because they were afraid that I was a more skilled domme than them and they wouldn't measure up. I've gotten the impression more than once that some people are afraid that a switch will be judging them against the switch's own performance in that role, and I have never figured out quite how to address that.

And to sinderalla, I understand you quite completely. For me, my switching is absolutely gender-based. I domme men and I sub to women. For me, that's the way my fetishes run and I can't explain it any more than I can explain why leather and ropes get me wet.

I can somewhat understand Timoty's point about a switch not being being his completely. But only in the context of a long-term monogamous situation. The same thing happens with bi's, so many lesbians will not date a bi woman because they assume that she will eventually turn to men again. Of course what he is failing to realize is that people can commit to the right person and stay committed no matter what outside distractions there are or what form they take. Bi's can stay in monogamous relationships no matter what gender they are with, and switches can commit fully to a D/S relationship no matter what side of the slash they are on.

[thir]

[QUOTE=darinna;929241]
I can somewhat understand Timoty's point about a switch not being being his completely. But only in the context of a long-term monogamous situation. The same thing happens with bi's, so many lesbians will not date a bi woman because they assume that she will eventually turn to men again.
[/quite]

Isn't it rather cultural or political? I mean, in all relationships people can fall in love with another person and leave them, be it men or women.

Of course what he is failing to realize is that people can commit to the right person and stay committed no matter what outside distractions there are or what form they take. Bi's can stay in monogamous relationships no matter what gender they are with, and switches can commit fully to a D/S relationship no matter what side of the slash they are on.

True!

[Heritor]

Personally, I am a listed dominant, However, I'm switch enough to want to be topped and I have been. Unfortunately, despite my sub desires I am naturally far too dominant to truly lose control. I tend to plan and top from the bottom. So, essentially dominant.

I don't believe any switch is ever 50/50. Usually there is a tendency towards one side, sometime only slightly, but usually. Perhaps this varies between partners, or towards whichever was the more formative BDSM experiance. Anyone agree/disagree?

[davina_]

Wow, what a great thread, and three years old too. I'm only half way through reading each post because I want to try and understand everyone's position. I think it's important to allow yourself an open mind and I'll probably kick myself for posting before I finished reading the entire thread but here goes, my two cents...

Who is so Dom that they get to make all the rules and these rules are unconditional and must be abided by? Who is so sub that they don't have the ability to say "no" I can't/won't do that? I think as humans, we are all in a vast circle and each one of us finds a spot we are comfortable with. Some gravitate to one extreme more than others while some like the adventure of investigating the realm somewhere closer to the middle. Maybe the middle offers more insight to both sides, I don't know. I do believe that it is within everyone's ability to shift around and explore any aspect once they allow themselves to open up to all the possibilities.

I've never explored any BDSM outside of a close personal relationship. But within that relationship, I have found it most rewarding to be able to assume both roles as it helps me to understand what the other-side is like enough to orchestrate matters for mutual satisfaction. I really think it comes down to two people and how much they want to try and make one another feel fulfilled and complete. It doesn't matter how you get there, it only matters that you do.

I will admit that I have never been able to wrap my head around certain things. Certain concepts just seem to foreign to me. Others seem to attract me like a strong magnet. But neither has anything to do with being dominant or submissive. I think that is more just a matter of what I'm in the mood for at the time and how my partner makes me feel. I think it's a lot of fun to be open to whatever happens and just live for the moment.

[ksst]

Davina, that's a really good post. I had never heard the term "switch" before I joined this forum. I guess I have had a sheltered life. Anyway, I do understand that people might want to be dominant sometimes and submissive at others, depending on mood, the particular partner, the place they are in their life etc. I have tried out both roles with my husband in play. With him dominant and me sub, it's just a lot better for both of us. I don't feel the dominant role like I do submissiveness. I would just be acting, and the same for him in reverse. But it can be fun at times to mix things up. From what I read here, it seems that other people do feel just as good in either role.

[Ozme52]

My only issue with switches is that everywhere I've particpated, online and real life, they complain that they're looked down upon. Well, in my not so humble opinion, it's a fallacy except for the part that is wish fulfillment. All the happy switches that I know have come to terms that they enjoy both roles. Only those who think they need to make a final decision complain that they're somehow second class citizens within the lifestyle.

And my experience is that they are really complaining that they don't get to play with subs who want a full time dom. Or that they won't be chosen by a dom who wants a full time sub. It's really reverse discrimination. They're mostly upset because "we" want someone who HAS made the decision. Not that I think less of them. It's just what I want.

And I will play with a switch if we have chemistry... but if they want to reverse roles with me it's unlikely that said chemistry will last long. Not their fault, not mine. It's just how I'm wired. But some will say that I am being unfair because I would choose a sub over a switch.

Ridiculous.

[davina_]

My only issue with switches is that everywhere I've particpated, online and real life, they complain that they're looked down upon...Ridiculous.

I agree with everything you say. I think you are "participating" with switches that might not be secure in the fact that they aren't full time either way and therefore shouldn't expect to be treated as such. I think a real switch realizes that his/her oppertunities are different. We have a unique playing field and as such, can't compare ourseleves to the likes of others who play differently. I don't think it's a matter of looking down or up, but just a different direction.

[Aibo]

In many cases I think it is about insecurity, yes the dominant cannot just handle it.
I started out switch myself and were quite appalled by some things I heard. Over time I happened to put switch to the side, and it had nothing to do with what other people thought. Yet about that time there were a guy who were a major member of a BDSM organization who told me that "switch men become the best Masters since they understand what goes on in the head of the submissive" and that is something that I took with me.

Now that some remain switch is rather something I envy since they have the opportunity for twice as much good times than me. And I am serious when saying that I think so.

[Ozme52]

See! Either they whine or they claim superiority. So who're the insecure and who are the intolerant? Seems clear to me.

[Heritor]

I'm not sure your viewpoint is so valid. I have never encountered problems in a switch/sub or switch/dom relationship, because respectful partners accomodate each other. As a switch I would not try to coerce a sub into topping me, or a dom into subbing for me.

I prefer to see it as an advantage - I'm versatile!

Also, on the whining front, I have never encountered a purist anti-switch either. =) Unless you are one?

[Heritor]

That was meant to be a reply to Ozme52...

[DowntownAmber]

Shocker...lol...another thread that boils down to "people are individuals and we like what we like, dislike what we dislike." I think too many people take others preferences as a sign of acceptance or disapproval, and that's simply reading too much into it.

[CoupleOregonJack]

To make a general statement about a couple of labels doesn't make any sense to me. There are all kinds of levels, all kinds of gradations, an infinite number of variables in and millions of different relationships where each person is constantly changing too. None the less I think switches generally have more complications than someone who is clearly identified in their head as being on one side of the fence or the other. I'm new to this, and switch seems like the right label for now, but I'm looking forward to dealing with the complications this will cause (in the dynamic of my relationship with my sub partner).. I figure I will keep changing, learning and growing...hopefully.

[Dog's Lady]

Wow! A lot of really interesting stuff in this thread. Now for my two (or ten, or fifty) cents worth. First, does anyone remember the Kinsey scale? It goes from one to seven, with one end being completely straight and the other being completely homosexual (I just can't remember which end is the one and which is the seven) In his studies of human sexuality he found that almost no-one is a one or a seven; most of us fall somewhere in the middle. I've mentioned elsewhere in the forum that I am bi-curious; I use that term because I have had very little experience with other women-to put it in high school terms, I've only been to second base. My primary attraction has always been, and probably will be for men, but there are some women and some situations in which I find myself attracted to women/a woman. Does that make me confused? I don't think so; think in restaurant terms: do you always order the exact same thing at the restaurant every time? I don't. I may have a favorite that I order most of the time, but I will have days when I want something different. So men are my favorite, but that doesn't mean I would never "order" a woman instead. On the Kinsey scale, I think of myself as either a 2 1/2 or a 5 1/2, whichever is more hetero.
Why can't BDSM be similar? If we call one a total submissive, and seven a total dominant, wouldn't most of us fit between two and six? I have had completely vanilla relationships, others in which I was submissive only, one in which we switched almost evenly, top/bottom, with a healthy mix of vanilla added in. In that particular case, our submission was exactly the same-to top him, I only needed to do what I would have wanted, with a few changes for our different gender equipment, if that makes sense. I could be a really good top for him, and he for me, because we knew and understood what the other wanted. I've had relationships in which BDSM was just a little spice, so we each tried both role to see what we liked and didn't like.
In my current relationship, we are primarily vanilla or me as sub. I tried topping him one night, but he is a very different sub, as compared to me. It is/was harder for me to know what to do to/for him; I pulled him out of sub space by doing something I would have wanted in that situation, and ruined it for him. I am trying to learn more about what he feels submission is, and work up a scene that his sub would enjoy.
I bring up all of my relationships (well, not all . . .) because I think that part of the reason I will play top comes from my submission; actually, a lot of my sexual behavior comes from this place: I want my partner to be happy and satisfied. If vanilla sex is most pleasing, I can do that-and sometimes, that is exactly what I want. To be held, treasured, whisper sweet nothings . . . fairy tale sex, of a sort. I am primarily a sub in sex, although I am learning, through this man and all of you, how many different definitions there are for that-connotations, not denotations, if you will. I am very outgoing in public (I have even been called bossy, drill sergeant), and if my partner needs/wants to let go, not have to run things, then I can draw on that side of myself and try to be the top, or just the aggressor, for that time. Let me pull one example, one that can fit with vanilla, top, or bottom sex. I love to give head. I love to look at, touch, smell, taste male genitals. (Well, as longer as you have showered in the past few days--that is one of those scents that is great fresh, bat can go bad kind of quickly. Yes, I know it is the same for us ladies.) I love to see and hear my partners pleasure in what I am doing. Sometimes, I even get a bit of a power trip, knowing the reactions I can incite-even if I am giving head as a sub. It pleases me, it pleases him, on multiple levels. At least, they seem to be pleased. If I can ever get my Dog-dear onto the site, you can ask him if I am any good at it. But the evidence I have collected says that I am, and I think it is because I want to be, so I am willing to try different approaches until I get that pleasure response from him. (BTW, this is one of the reasons I hesitate to be with a woman: I have no experience going down on them/us, and would hate to disappoint a female lover with my ineptness.)
Oh, and I am another mixed-up-NOT confused-person: socially liberal, fiscally conservative, etc., etc, just like a few other ladies described themselves back on page two of this thread. And I am okay with it-even proud.
Again, I don't know if I just made things more complicated,or if I managed to add to the discussion, but I hope it is the latter. Thanks for listening.

[ksst]

I think you make a lot of sense there, and I was not confused at all by what you have written.

I also like the Kinsey scale model of looking at both hetero/homosexual feelings and dom/switch/sub feelings. That would probably throw a lot more people into the switch category than there are now, if people tended to use a scale.

Personally, I can't really imagine being the top without sort of a nervous, bad feeling. I did try it when asked but I didn't get any fun out of it, and he ended up "escaping" and overpowering me anyway. That part was fun I may be about a one on that scale.

Probably I am closer to the middle than the edge on the gay/bi/straight scale, although I have had absolutely no experience with women.