Women Shall Submit

[hopperboo]

You said fear wasn't the basis of religious submission; you just now restated it as it wasn't the entire basis of religious submission.

Ahh, sorry. I meant it wasn't the entire basis. :s

P.S. I have no idea what my second sentence means. I've re-read it three times. I promise I am not crazy. (Promise).

[Virulent]

I have no idea what my second sentence means. I've re-read it three times. I promise I am not crazy. (Promise).

Ya sure about that? You're here, aren't ya?

What I took it to mean was, "Why don't you make a similar lists of times the Bible says that God loves us? I bet it's way longer". I didn't bother because I don't disagree that the Bible makes both arguments; that God loves us, and we should love Him... and that we should also be terrified of Him, because He will do the most horrific, painful things imaginable to us, for all eternity, if we don't follow all of His rules.

[Kuskovian]

LOL.



Well we must consider that all religions tend to try and place each and everything in it's proper place according to the authors of thier individual dogmas.

So too it is with man and woman, life and death, ethics and sin; in a word dominion.

Whoever created it......it is what it is.

The dominants rule over those who submit.

Where it is essential in nature for dominance to preclude ones own survival; it is remarkable to think a religion that apeals to mercy and weakness would succeed so well.

Or is it?

Has not religion numerously been casually remarked to be yet another tool used to control the massess?

Thrue dominace is rare, as the hierarchy involved requires the one on top to "fear" (respect) his opponents So too those bellow fear those above. It is much like Aristotles Golden Mean. Contstant struggle insues, the proverbial state of war provided by Hobbes prevales in a way.

Wise is the dominant that remembers this well.

Dom/sub? Please .... anthropologically speaking it has existed since the first man stood above his brethern.

The extra testosterone males possess is there for a reason.

Man and woman both have thier duties, thier place in existance....the place where each in and of themselves ..........thrive.

This does not mean there are not exceptions or unique variations present.

What woman wishes to submit to a "weak" man.....and what man does not wish to conquer a strong woman?

Some females are stronger willed than others. Some are harder to subdue. Some men fail to see the advantages of the struggle with thier brothers and submit. Some take issue with thier genders purpose and rebel, even try to mimic thier partners sex, and or become it. Some rail at the inherent preception of weakness in others and over compensate for the absence of what they so desperatly need in thier lives, a reason, a purpose to submit too.

It is purpose that drives us. It is purpose that defines us. ( Matrix humor)

Some find thier purpose is to hold dominion, as nature intended it to be held with thier very last breath if need be.

[Pastor]

Wow...

I find conversations of the bible, christianity, and other religions absolutely hilarious... Just check out my nick... But what is so funny to me is the different, and often extreme, views on what each religion and all of its implications.

When, if you have actually read and possible studied the bible/Quran. Like me, you would open your eyes to two of the most vile, gratuitous, immoral, and generalized books ever written by anyone.

I'm not going to get into who wrote what because until you introduce me to a REALLY old person who claims to know it all... Its all just theory. But I will make a claim that the writers of both books were clearly realists when you consider the references and history of both. To be simple, if you think the "lifestyle" is something new... Your crazy...

Now, I'm not claiming Paul was demanding all christians join the lifestyle. But to take the things that the bible said as law and not principal(You do know the difference right?). Is just another example of people limiting themselves and using some really good advice as an excuse to self destruct.

To directly answer the original poster's statement: To see BDSM as a Christian idea is not really an important issue (imho). Submission, as the bible uses the term, is not clearly defined anywhere in the bible. There are many parables and writers that claim to be examples of submission. But the only common thread is that someone else is put before themselves. The bible also claims we should do this for everyone.

So truthfully, I believe that the "details" of a relationship are left out of the marriage description on purpose. If the lifestyle makes you both happy... Great! If it doesn't... Figure it out!

If you get it wrong... Remember, CHRIST said to love the sinner and hate the sin.

Its ironic to me that this, the BDSM family shows the very characteristics of non-judgmental love, forgiveness, and total acceptance that CHRIST requires of the "christians" that would condemn us out of hat if they could find a legitimate platform to do it on...

I am a living, bought with the blood of Christ, Christian. I love my wife in all her many forms... And all of you as well!

-Pastor

[denuseri]

is it a sin if i whorship my owners cock?

lol

[Pastor]

Definitely not... In fact, I can point out a few scriptures that say you should.... Not specifically but, and I quote: " Your body is His and His body is yours..." Okay, paraphrase. Not quote. But you get the idea...

[caligirl{Rob}]

ah makes me think of the quote I once heard

A man has his will, but a woman has her way!

[hopperboo]

LOL, I love that quote.

[Kuskovian]

JHC seems to me to be the worlds first true "hypocritical switch". All love and submission all the time, "if you do it my way" otherwise, burn in hell. LOL.

No wonder that though, the old testement wasn't written for the gentiles, it was part historical record, and part desert survival guide. Hard god for hard conditions.

Look at the Norse gods, lots of love there. Funny how thier whole country just about converted to Lutheranism during the "Reformation".

Wasn't Luther a strong proponent of :"spare the rod and you spoil the child"?

Speaking of rods, I have a slut to beat.

LOL.

[littlepet]

I feel the bible is another misogynistic book. I have a very very hard time understanding how women ignore the violence spoken against them in this book (actually collection of books.)

Genesis 3:16 Says that all women must suffer great pains during child birth due to Eve eating the fruit of knowledge. (As if it is somehow just that humans should pay for their ancestor’s sins nor is a woman dying in labor some how befitting of a crime she did not commit.) The verse finishes of by saying a husband shall “rule” over his woman, stripping us off all power in between the sexes.

Exodus 21:7 God not only sanctions selling ones daughter into slavery, but he also gives out laws on how it should be done.

Leviticus 12:1-8 Explains that a woman has to be purified after giving birth because she is “unclean”. It goes on to say that birthing a male is cleaner then birthing a female, hence a mother must purify TWICE as long when having a daughter. This is BLATANT sexism from the point of birth. A woman is dirty simply for being a woman; this is obviously very biased and chauvinistic.

Numbers 31: 14-18 Moses tells his men to kill all the males, non-virginal women, elderly and children of the Midianite tribe. Of course, the virgin women are kept for raping. If you read later down in the scripture God states that the Jews can not even marry a Midianite woman (with exception to Moses). Hence these women who were captured were repeatedly raped and impregnated and they weren’t even allowed a marital status in which to protect them.

(Oh and as a side note, all the comments above with the bible verses come from http://www.evilbible.com the comments after each bible verse are not my own, though I probably would have made very similar comments.)

Just a small sampling. Voluntary female submission to a male is fine. It's what some of us get off on, BUT...the big caveat is...SOME of us...and the even bigger caveat is...when it is proscribed by any book or religion it leads to larger wholesale abuse of women that goes beyond just a personal dynamic between any given man or woman.

And yes, I am probably about to piss off everybody on the forum today. It is my special gift.

[Thorne]

And yes, I am probably about to piss off everybody on the forum today. It is my special gift.

Doesn't piss me off. I tend to agree with what you say. Many cultures in this world have, and still do, treat women as either second class persons or as property. This is especially pronounced in the Judeo/Christian/Muslim faiths, mainly because of the Biblical treatment of women.

And despite great advances in American society over the past 100 years, there is still a hard core of these feelings present here. And I believe it's primarily out of fear!

I have known several men who constantly put down women, regardless of how good at their jobs they were, or how smart they were. They always complained that any successful woman was only successful because of what they had between their legs. They felt that women could exert too much power over men because of their sexual organs.

This seems to be the idea in many Muslim nations even today. We hear stories of women who are executed for committing adultery, while the man they committed this heinous crime with only receives a pat on the wrist. Or a woman who was gang-raped in an Arab country who received a harsher sentence than her rapists because she was out of the house without a male escort. In other words, if a man cant keep his cock in his pants it must be the woman's fault!

I have never understood this concept myself. My feeling is that any person, whether male or female, can only have the power that you give them. If I don't allow myself to be influenced by a woman's short skirts and tight shirts, they no longer have power over me. Yes, I find them attractive, and I'll ogle along with the best of them. But that doesn't mean I have to run out and attack every shapely ass I see on the streets!

Yes, I am dominant, sexually, and I like women who are submissive, sexually. I don't find much to enjoy about a woman who is submissive all the time, though. I like women who are feisty and intelligent and who know what they want. And above all, I like women who know when to say "no", and I will respect that "no" every time.

Except, of course, when she really means "yes"!

[littlepet]

Hey Thorne, it's because you possess actual strength, as opposed to brute force or a sense of entitlement based on your gender.

[Thorne]

Hey Thorne, it's because you possess actual strength...

LOL! You don't know me very well, do you?

[orchidsoul]

Littlepet- doesn't piss me off either. I tend to agree with you as well.
I liken many sacred scriptures to the Declaration of Independence... they were constructed based upon the times, and the times, they are a changin'. Unlike the Declaration though, the bible doesn't have ammendments per se, rather new denominations and spin offs of the religion.

Many cultures in this world have, and still do, treat women as either second class persons or as property. This is especially pronounced in the Judeo/Christian/Muslim faiths, mainly because of the Biblical treatment of women.

I can't speak for anything except Judeo, but it's only in Orthodox that women are treated any differently- and it's quite a bit. In Conservative or Reformed, it's a fairly, if not completely, equal treatment between men and women.

[Thorne]

I can't speak for anything except Judeo, but it's only in Orthodox that women are treated any differently- and it's quite a bit. In Conservative or Reformed, it's a fairly, if not completely, equal treatment between men and women.

Yes, a sign of change and modernization, if you will. Not unlike Catholicism, which is still struggling toward it but is definitely on its way. Women are being allowed more freedom within the Church, though nowhere on a par with men. Islam, it seems to me (someone correct me if I'm mistaken, please), is still mired in more medieval/archaic treatment of its women. I have no familiarity with Oriental religions, so I cannot comment on those.

But many cultures throughout the world, even in these modern times, place a higher value on the birth of a boy than of a girl, and still reckon the ownership of property to descend through the males of the family more than through females.

[orchidsoul]

Not unlike Catholicism, which is still struggling toward it but is definitely on its way. Women are being allowed more freedom within the Church, though nowhere on a par with men. Islam, it seems to me (someone correct me if I'm mistaken, please), is still mired in more medieval/archaic treatment of its women. I have no familiarity with Oriental religions, so I cannot comment on those.

I don't know too much about the church... but I think it's sort of the same. Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, etc are more stringent with the separation, or rather purposes of the females in the family, of men and women to the best of my knowledge. But denominations like Episcopalean, Unitarianism, etc are more modern derivatives of Christianity and don't recognize many beliefs of Catholicism.

I have a few friends my age that practice Greek Orthodox and they are in no way comparable to their Mothers... in the sense they have jobs, are treated as equals in a relationship, are not expected to be barefoot, pregnant, and solely running a household unless they so choose. It's amazing how even one generation has changed.

Another difference is in Orthodox Judaism. Women do not sit with men, rather sit in the back of the temple, and in Greek Orthodox they can sit wherever they choose. When I went, we sat near the front and it was the most beautiful church and service I'd ever attended. Even when I went to the Basilica at the Vatican, women were intermixed with the men.

You are absolutely correct about Islamic faith. It's mired very much towards archaic treatment of women. Fully covered unless in the company of your immediate family, husbands only requirement for being a polygamist is to provide equally, devotion and financially, for each family... but good luck proving otherwise... and good luck trying to ever divorce your husband.

Like all the 'orthodox' (for lack of a better way to differentiate) religions, I think particularly practiced within the US there is more equality within the relationship, but often the man may have the final decision... not unlike a 24/7 relationship.

But many cultures throughout the world, even in these modern times, place a higher value on the birth of a boy than of a girl, and still reckon the ownership of property to descend through the males of the family more than through females.

I wonder if it's because in these cultures women are never the providers? It's only been a couple generations since some women have become the financial breadwinner in the family in the US...

In China with the birth restrictions (only one child) if the first is a girl, she will probably be put up for adoption. *shrugs* It's viewed almost as a failure for not being able to provide a boy as the first born. And if a second child is born... if that child is not put up for adoption, there's huge financial fines making it near impossible to pay the government and your bills.

[littlepet]

I think you're being modest, lol. It's charming, but not convincing.

[Thorne]

I think you're being modest, lol. It's charming, but not convincing.

Strong, modest and charming? Did I fall off a train in Mayberry?

Anyway, I thank you for the thought, littlepet. Now I have to go throw myself into a briar patch and try to get my mean back.

[denuseri]

Islam suffers from the same minority influence of fundamentalists and zealots imposssed on the majority (due to political and economic conditions) as the western religions do; that gives them both a bad reputation despite what good the individually pious people do in thier own communitees.

Zealotry and close minded fundamentalist thinking is the real enemy, not the religions themselves.

The world is not as developed over there in regaurds to personel freedoms, which i can assure you the people there do not all think it nessesarally should be.

In fact they sometimes have a tendency to view the western world as concieted eurocentric, rife with coruption and decadent on par with a level of true evil much as the subject and occupied nations of the mediteranian once viewed the romans.

Just as many years ago (and sometimes still today) the judeo/christian fundamentalists impossed what by today's standards are considered practices that violate human rights. Look at what just happened in texas not to long ago.

I see just as much ignorance and vehmency expoused here in the west as i have seen in the country of my birth especially by athiests.

Religions of the east have thier own problems alltough from personal experience with them (on average) i have never seen them to portray a sexually onesided view as those religions originating from the middle east (christianity, judisim, and islam) appear to on the surface.

I consititantly see people more than willing to point to one side or the other and say what they believe and do is wrong, all the while mentioning nothing of the thier own sides problems.

A quote from memory so forgive me if its wording is not exact comes to mind:

" do not cast out the sliver in thy brothers eye until you have dealt with the log in your own"

[orchidsoul]

I surely didn't intend to mock or disparage any of the religions mentioned. Just was sharing what limited knowledge I have... some of it based on an Islamic studies course I took in college... which definitely covered negative issues for some practitioners. But you're right- that was 10 yrs ago, and the reality is most women are very comfortable and proud of their islamic faith, as one should be.

There is a certain reality to inequality, by modern western standards, within many religions. The difference being when women of their respective faiths don't feel subjugated by them and in fact are very comfortable with their customs, practices, and roles. And that is what should truly matter. It's like frowning upon a woman, or a man, in the US who chooses to be a stay at home parent. It all comes down to choice- something we are so fortunate to be able to express.

I also think other countries views of us, and our views of them, often are based upon the same stereotypes and some limited information received by the news. I know I've been treated unfairly in foreign countries just because I was an American. There were many presumptions made about my beliefs and lifestyle. You're right, it's unfair and perhaps I spoke only part of the realities for which I do apologize.

[damyanti]

Zealotry and close minded fundamentalist thinking is the real enemy, not the religions themselves.

I agree. The notion that if someone believes something, everyone else has to believe it, is something I just cant comprehend. You may preach to me (in a friendly and respectful manner), you should practice what you preach (if you want me to respect you)...but this need human beings have when someone doesn't live according to their "values" that their natural impulse is to convert with force, and if that doesn't work to kill. Never mind that "values" they preach usually include manifests against violence and bloodshed, and how they fail to see the hypocrisy of it....

This is an extract (click on it for a link to original) from one of my favourite blogs, I share her sentiments:

"So much mistrust, hate fueling hate, revenge begetting another bloody round of revenge… Where does this all end?

Religion is a very personal matter, it belongs in our minds and in our families and homes, at most. How can we fight and kill each other over something so personal and subjective? Would you kill me if I said my husband was the best husband in the world? Would you mistrust me only because I did not marry yours? Sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it? I am sorry, but I find the other argument just as ridiculous too.

I am Hindu and I’d like to tell the so-called saviors of my Hindu pride, I don’t really care about rebuilding a temple that may or may not have been destroyed so many years ago if it is to happen at the cost of communal peace. And I have no interest in reclaiming the so-called lost honor of my religion. I never thought it was lost in the first place. I am very proud of my religion and would have been prouder still if you had never entered the picture.

Having said that, I am also least interested in establishing the supremacy of my religion over others. I am quite okay if you consider your religion superior to mine. Maybe it really is, who knows! I respect all religions equally, I truly do. I find as much peace of mind in a church as in a temple. I bow my head in reverence each time I pass a mosque. And I have Muslim friends who I am sure would like to say something similar to the terrorists supposedly waging war on their behalf.

So let me ask you both, fanatic Hindus and Muslims, do you care about the thousands of innocent lives being lost in this farce, lives of the very people whom you claim to protect and later avenge? Did they volunteer to be sacrificed in your war? Men, women and children, the bombs did not distinguish between Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians - simple folks like yours and mine out for some Saturday evening fun with the family."


While there may be some spirituality in it (as in any close relationship), I don't think bdsm has anything to do with religion. I am submissive and a woman; I am not submissive because I am a woman. For me its an entirely matter of sexual eroticism...but I can see how easily the confusion can be made...it is in human nature to seek high purpose and in no other matter is the purpose higher and D/s dynamic clearer than in religion.

For me what it comes down to, is choice. It horrorfies me when I see matters of private choice made into a law. If it were a free (meaning, no implied threats) choice of each woman individually to wear Abaya, I have no problem with that- but as long as its law, its never a free choice. I could be wrong, but based on what I have read, its not even something thats written in Qur'an, but a social norm made up by (weak) men.

I subscribe to Unitarian Universalism, its a faith that comes naturally to me...so I find studying Islam fascinating. I even tried googling Islam and bdsm, but nothing of substance came up?

This to me is true Islam, (not something I am looking to convert to), but its the interpretation I have no problem with and respect very much:

"The rights of husband and wife

Q). Different problems arise in different marriages, I should be grateful if you would kindly comment on the rights and duties of a husband and wife when the following problems arise.

1. If the wife is disobedient in both domestic and religious matters.
2. If she misuses the money given to her by her husband and gives it to her relations although they may be rich.
3. If she refuses to move to her husband’s home, where he wishes to live permanently.
4. If she passes offensive remarks against her husband, claiming that she is only joking.
5. If she refuses to resign from her employment.
6. If she refuses to give their child the name her husband wants to give him
7. Is a husband within his rights to talk to his friends about his wife?

(Name and address withheld)

1. Islam views marriage as a relationship, which brings two persons together in frieand compassion. Problems and quarrels arise in almost every marriage. Rare indeed is a marriage, which is free of them. It is when such problems and differences arise that compassion, consideration and affection are most needed in order to overcome the difficulty, reconcile the partners and ensure the safety of the marriage and the family, and above all to safeguard the interests of the children. It is important, therefore, to make the rights and limits of each of the two partners absolutely clear in order to reduce the effects of these problems to the minimum. It is also important that authority in the family should be well defined. Islam gives that authority to the husband, on the basis that it is he who earns the money and is required to look after his wife and children. Islam, however, does not neglect the other half of the marriage, namely, the wife. It ensures that the wife is treated with respect and honor and makes it clear that she is entitled to exercise her rights, which are commensurate with her duties. The prophet says:” The best among you is the best in his treatment of his household, and I am the best of you in my treatment of my household” The prophet was not boasting about his treatment of his wives when he said so. Far is it from him to boast about anything he does. The prophet said that only because he is the example Allah expects us to follow. When we know that he has extended to his wives the best treatment a woman can dream of, then by following his example, we are practicing our religion, earning reward from Allah and ensuring our own happiness.

Having said that, I realize that not all marriages can be happy. Some of them are stormy, and some always suffer form the incompatibility of the personalities of both partners. Problems which in the beginning may be small are soon compounded and family life becomes a continuous misery. In order to solve problems of the type mentioned in the reader’s letter, it is important to know what are the rights and the duties of each in every situation. Taking these cases one by one, let us consider the Islamic answer to them.

1. It is the duty of a wife to obey her husband in all matters which affect the family, provided that his wishes and what he tells her to do does not contravene any Islamic law or regulation. Having said that, I should perhaps add that life in the family should not be treated as life in a military camp, with orders issued morning and evening and differences of opinion treated as disobedience leading to mutiny. If the husband, however, expresses a certain wish or expects something from his wife which he makes clearly understood, then his wife should endeavor to fulfill that as long as it does not badly affect her or their family and it does not constitute a disobedience of Allah. The Prophet says: ”No creature may be obeyed in what constitutes disobedience to Allah.” If the wife is habitually disobedient in ordinary matters, her husband should counsel her that her attitude is bound to leave adverse effects on both of them and their children. The Qur’an speaks of three different stages of dealing with such disobedience. Allah states in the Qur’an: As those women whose rebellion you have reason to fear, admonish them first: then leave them alone in bed: then beat them(lightly): and if they subsequently pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Allah is indeed most high, great. (4:34) It must be clearly understood that the physical punishment mentioned in verse is treated as the last resort and it must not be severe or on the woman’s face. It should be viewed only as a corrective measure, which is not used except in extreme cases. Admonition and staying away from bed must be tried first. As for the disobedience in religious matters, the Qur’an advises us Bid your family to pray, and be patient with them. This divine instruction may be carried over so as to include all religious duties. One has to tell his wife and members of his family to attend to their religious duties and treat them wisely so as to encourage them to fulfill those duties. He should explain to them their duties toward Allah, quoting always from the Qur’anic verse implying clear instruction that he or she should do something, he is far more likely to comply than when the instruction is given in the words of human being.

2. The prophet makes clear that woman should not spend her husband’s money without his consent, not even for charity. This is because it is normally the husband who earns the money. Hence, he should have the final say in how it is spent. The prophet says: ”No woman may spend something from her husband’s house without his permission.” The prophet was asked: ”Not even food” He said: that is the best of our money.” It is, however, permissible for a woman to give away perishable food if she fears that it will perish if kept, and her family does not need it. She need not wait for her husband to give his permission in that particular case. If a woman nevertheless spends some money, which belongs to her husband for a charitable purpose, he earns the reward for it and she incurs the blame for spending it without having his consent first.

3. If her husband’s home is adequate for the family and meets all the requirements of a home, then it is her duty to move to it if her husband asks her to do so. If she does not, she is considered rebellious and she forfeits her right to financial support by her husband.

4. This attitude cannot be condoned at all. It is indeed forbidden. The prophet was asked: “who has the greatest claim over a woman?” He answered: “Her Husband” He was then asked: “who has the greatest claim over a man?” He answered “His mother.” In view of this hadith, passing offensive remarks to the person who has the greatest claim to a woman’s respect and good treatment is the direct opposite of her duty.

5. The normal situation is that the husband works in order to earn his living and support his family. A woman is not supposed to work because she does not need to do so. A recent ruling by an Egyptian court, however, states that if a man marries a woman when she is employed or having a regular job, and he agrees to her continued working, then he has no right to prevent her from continuing with her work. If he, nevertheless, asks her to quit her job and she disobeys, then her disobedience is not considered rebellion in the technical sense which makes her forfeit her right to be supported. This ruling is based on the assumption that her husband's agreement to her work at the time of their marriage is deemed to be one of the conditions of the marriage. The prophet says: “Believers, abide by whatever conditions they accept.”

6. Ii is the right of the husband to give his children their names. Here again mutual agreement promotes good and healthy atmosphere in the family. This should never be an issue of contention in any family.

7. It is not appropriate from the Islamic point of view to speak to other people about one’s wife. It is permissible, however to seek advice from people of wise judgement or to seek good counsel. If it is for that purpose that one speaks about his wife to others, then he must always remember that he should not speak ill of her, so that they form a bad opinion of her. What he says about her should never be tantamount to backbiting her. He should remember that she also has a right over him to protect her and to make others hold her in good esteem. He should never say a word of untruth about her."

[denuseri]

Ohh boo, i didnt mean anyone in paticular here so much as people in general on both sides.

I am myself kind of mixed in between the lines, being born there but raised here and moving all over as a military brat.

[orchidsoul]

Ohh boo, i didnt mean anyone in paticular here so much as people in general on both sides.

No worries- I actually didn't take it as a personal response. More so you opened my eyes to how I may have been portraying my thoughts and I wouldn't want to ever come across as stereotypical, presumptious, or judgemental regardless of the discussion.

In fact, I quite liked what you wrote. It's always good to be reminded of others views and how others may view.

[SilvieA]

I am Christian. But I see my religion as something between God and myself. At times not even the Bible enters the picture. I believe that the Bible was man's attempt at creating a path to tread that follows God. Certain parts of the Bible I dicount entirely, and gender roles is one such part. For me, that part of the Bible mirrors the times in which it was written.
Gender roles to me are complete bull. And even though I suppose I personally dream of a guy that wears the pants, that does not mean to me that every woman should; especially as a matter of faith. And even within my own preferences, I enjoy the challanges that the world offers me as a single woman who had always been expected to be independent by both of her parents... my dad is a hard-core feminist as far as his daughters are concerned :-P There are only certain guys I could ever submit to, men that I percieve as better for the job of leadership than me; tougher, stronger, and at least as intelligent as I am. Let's just say that there aren't a lot, lol. So, if feminin submission was to go mainstream then I would be worried for the world... there aren't all too many men worthy of submission.

[awakening2]

Smiles! a very strong statement jeanne..."My sexuality comes from God - He made me this way. If I don't honor myself, including my sexuality...". I hope every one takes it in the right way...that you meant...

Child abusers, serial killers or all those who believe in "might is right" may consider themselves gifted too...so if they try to get away from it, it would not mean they are dishonoring.....(And yes, 'No', I do not see direct relation between christianity and BDMS (personal opinion!)

[jeanne]

Smiles! a very strong statement jeanne..."My sexuality comes from God - He made me this way. If I don't honor myself, including my sexuality...". I hope every one takes it in the right way...that you meant...

Child abusers, serial killers or all those who believe in "might is right" may consider themselves gifted too...so if they try to get away from it, it would not mean they are dishonoring.....(And yes, 'No', I do not see direct relation between christianity and BDMS (personal opinion!)

I just saw this - and you got me thinking! Always a good thing.

In reading through this thread again, I find a sort of consensus (I think) that in our daily lives we have a duty to not harm others. When I state that my sexuality is how God made me, I do believe it. But, the expression of my sexuality is where choice comes in. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that my sexuality included pedophilia. Could I then say to myself "this is how God made me, therefore expressing it by having sexual relations with children is okay"? Well, I suppose I could. But, then I run into the idea of harming others. Suppose again that I have the intelligence and will to recognize that the expression of 'me' is not okay when I harm those who are unable to give consent, whether by age or mental defect. What do I do then? I find a way to satisfy that need, perhaps through role-play with other adults, or I suppress that need and turn my attentions another direction.

I think we have an obligation - not from God or any other diety but simply as human beings, thinking, breathing, living - to care for each other. To accept the fact that although we each have needs and desires and a fundamental 'self', we must find a way to live our authentic selves in harmony with other human beings.

Gosh. I'm exhausted.

[awakening2]

Jeanne, all I can say now is that if I were wearing a hat, by now I would have been on one knee, in front of you, taking it off my head acknowledging respectfully the considerate genius in you!

[jeanne]

Jeanne, all I can say now is that if I were wearing a hat, by now I would have been on one knee, in front of you, taking it off my head acknowledging respectfully the considerate genius in you!

Now you get to acknowledge the blushing fool who can't believe you said that. I'm incredibly flattered - thank you.

[awakening2]

That speaks of your humble nature, which I call "noble", to thank the thanking who thanked because of your virtue...I consider that nobleness, your answer was really beautiful...!

Looking at the picture (and surprisingly missed this thing before...), I do wonder about the ankle straps, if they are for self-restraints...or what...?Some of the 'wanna be saints' in the past used to place them on their ownself to pass through the terrain leading to enlightenment...though there also were the ones who were made to wear (slaves)...wonder who you are and what you seek... but TY and yes my...
Regards anyway!

[Chillye]

You make a very intriguing point. It can be applicable to the BDSM lifestyle (which is actually quite interesting!)
It is true that St. Paul believed that womyn should be subservient to men, as stated in his letter to the Ephesians. Though, to my knowledge, it also extends to men. In it he proclaims that man's sins blacken their wives souls as much as their own, because they were one body, person, and soul after holly matrimony. God may be sexist, but the bible also has domination-female themes. Such as Lilith, Adam's first wife. She decided to choose her own destiny and chose NOT to be subservient to Adam. Which is a statement practically saying that womyn can choose their own destiny.
BDSM at least gives people a choice whether to submit, much better than I can say about religions that stem from Catholicism.
So I believe that bible or not we all can create our own destinies. Whether it be to rebel, such as Lilith, or to submit such as Eve (though technically she rebelled in a way.)