Virtue

[Psynymph]

i was raised in a traditional, very Old South family. the kind where the woman doesnt have sex until married, only has sex to have children, and never ever enjoys sex.
in my world ( my childhood world rather) a woman's virtue was very prized. the more prudish, proper you were the more feminine you were seen as.
and i was thinking about it the other night. when it comes to submitting i still find myself clinging to these ideals. it was like earth shattering for me, the first time i called myself a slut. because it was such a bad, bad thing in my world. but it was also very liberating when i did and came to terms with it.
but even still i like being "forced and manipulated" into submitting so to say. like the proper little girl being guided, manipulated by the slightly perverted older authority figure, lol.
but does virtue have any holding in our world? the bdsm world? i mean it seems.... the submissives that kinda throw it all out there so to say are more prized than the other way around.....

thoughts please.

[Mishka]

but does virtue have any holding in our world? the bdsm world? i mean it seems.... the submissives that kinda throw it all out there so to say are more prized than the other way around.....

A chaste woman in bdsm?

I should think it was in the eye of the one looking for the prize as to the value of such a person, someone innocent and chaste. Guiding her, keeping her...

some would take advantage of her...manipulate her...

but treasure her more than those who are more risque'...or the other way around...it seems very subjective from relationship to relationship, what is valued by the couple.

As far as those who get attention...and that is what it is, not necessarily a greater prize, that really depends on personality preference. It takes a little longer to get to know those who are more demure.

Just my initial observations...I don't know if this is remotely what you were looking for.

[phantasy_seeker]

I was brought up in much the same environment; I believe my parents would faint if they heard of some of the things I did *g*.

For me, though, virtue is a personal thing. Calling myself a 'whore' brings no negative feelings now, only that delicious wash of humiliation. But if I were to literally BE a whore, as in solicit strangers for sex, well, that's where my personal virtue comes in. I would never do such a thing. My dom agrees with this. Other doms however certainly might prefer subs who actually would solicit strangers for sex if they were told to.

I too hope this answer is close to what you're looking for -- tough subject, that.

[lily27]

This thread is scary-relevant tonight.

I was also raised to be a "good-girl". This is something that continues to carry over into my submission, and that which I am becoming ever increasingly aware of.

I am still trying to reconcile all of this in my head, so this may sound disjointed. For me, it is much easier to do things that I can connect to the "good girl" image. A good girl follows orders. She is eager to please. She makes her Sir proud. She does not give voice to her deepest, darkest, dirtiest fantasies.

This is something that has become almost crippling to me. I can literally open my mouth wanting to say something....but no sound comes out. I am open, and outgoing, and decisive about everything else....but as for what I want, I have no voice.

Is this virtue? I have no idea.

I can't imagine this being a desirable trait. I doubt that many Doms would put up with it, let alone seek it out.

[karin]

i think i'm a mixture of both. good girl vs bad girl. for me....personally *key word: personally* i'm not 'a' slut..but His slut. big difference. i'm not..nor have i ever been promisicuous.

i was raised a 'good girl' too....but..i'm still a good girl. 'HIS' good girl...

[vistana]

but does virtue have any holding in our world? the bdsm world? ...
thoughts please.

Sure it does!
I just don't define virtue the way you do.
dicitonary.com has 8 definitions for virtue, and only one of them is chastity.
Me, I'm not a big fan of chastity. I believe I'm atleast semi-virtuous by other definitions, and I think a few of them are desirable - 'a good or admirable property', 'conformity of one's life and conduct to moral and ethical principles' for example. That has a place in any world.

I think that the old fashioned 'virtuous woman' isn't anything to be strived for, in any world. I'm not saying 'go promiscuity for all!', although I have indulged in stretches of it myself, and although I'm monogamous right now, I certainly don't discount the possibility of more such stretches in my future.
I just think that everyone should enjoy whatever sexual lifestyle suits them.

[TomOfSweden]

I'm an immoralist. I don't believe in any universal morals. It's all down to what works for people that they're interacting with. Trying to be something you're not is always bad for you.

Passing judgement on others is always what petty people do and is the only reason why virtues exist. The impossible ideal is only to be able to put others down. It was always bullshit. I'm just sorry you had to suffer through it as a kid. But I guess we're all trapped in this situation of being expected to be something we're not by any culture. Age has taught me otherwise.

It's always fun to identify the virtues and see which people get fooled by a virtous image and then play them for it. People doing their hardest to emit an image are always fake once you start scraping a bit.

It isn't all bad. The more boundaries there are to break, the more fun humiliation games are

[Masterandsub]

Maybe the virtues of the 'Ds world' are completely different. Perhaps it is ok that a sub should be meek and humble, whilst at the same time valued; and that a Dom shoudl provide the concern and discipline that a sub needs. Who is there to say that these values are not as valid as those of the 'real' world?

Just my thoughts

Yours

Master Martin

[usafmedic22]

Lily/Psynymph:
This is also very pertinent to me as well. I am fighting the same issues as I begin my journey into this lifestyle. I really want to let Him know what I want and what I've done to please him....etc. But I just can't....putting my thoughts into words has been my biggest struggle. As far as virtue goes...right now I can't really tell you how I feel about that. Something to ponder on....But I just wanted to say how relieved I am to see that others think along similar lines....

[Miraculix]

Psynymph: I read a sticker on a website one day. It said... "I stopped fighting my inner demons; we are on the same side now"...

On the other hand, and to make a difference between a girl feeling like a slut or "His slut", this is bigger than people think.

Just make the comparison: a vanilla woman married to a man in a classical monogamist marriage, and a prostitute. One of the two won't give her presious-ness to anyone but her husband, and the other will give it to anyone as long as there is retribution, usually monetary retribution.

Now, the question: which one is closer to a true submisive girl who loves her Master? The vanilla woman or the prostitute. I think I need not answering this, but I want to add one thing: a girl who calls herself "My slut" makes me proud, and makes me love her even more.

[Wolven_Vixen]

I think I must have been raised the same way. In the past, I've done things for pleasure, only to feel ashamed of myself later. It seem that by being so "proper", I totally lost touch with my femininity. I did what "ladies" are supposed to do, and didn't realize there was so much more.

For me, now, since I've started exploring BDSM, it's opened up a whole new world for me. My senses, my emotions, everything is so much more heightened. I feel that what I do isn't hurting anyone, and I only give this side of me to one person, who happens to be my husband.

I think virtue does have it's place for those it's important to.

In my opinion, it's about being true to yourself.

[tessa]

Psynymph, I know of what you speak. In my vanilla world growing up, virtue in regards to "good girls" was defined as sexual purity. And from what I observed, sexual purity was something to be endured, not appreciated. You spoke about the more "prized" submissives, but wasn't it the same for vanilla girls? The ones that were willing to "throw it all out there" were the ones who had the most fun at the party on Saturday night. (Or were they?) It made for conflicting feelings to be the "good girl" but wanting to be the "fun girl". These feelings also helped me board a few very misguided trains of thought...one of them being "virtue = prudishness". So similar to you, I had a very hard time giving voice to my deep, dark inner desires. And that held me back from living my life in any real sense. But for me, the time came when I just had to be open and true to me. Once I allowed myself to embrace my submissive nature and what that meant for me, I became free and therein found my own personal sense of virtue.

One definition puts it this way: "virtue is the quality of doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong". And "right and wrong" is for each of us to decide within ourselves. And it should be very much a part of our BDsM world, in my little opinion. Maybe looking at virtue in this way will guide you along in some way? I hope it does, at least.

My very best to you-
tessa

[Kevin]

Virtue, is the mid point between two vices.
courage is the mid point between timidity and recklesness.
To be too chaste is not a virtue, to be too promiscuous is not a virtue.
Without wanton lust one wonders if the race would have survived.
So much for virtue.
Kevin

[Psynymph]

so upon seeing this particular thread re-emerge....

i had a debate with a former Dom the other night about the cheapening of submission. W/we were haveing a mild debate about whether a person that submits to many Dominants is cheapened by it all.

~now for those truly polyamourous out there, please do not be offended. i mean absolutely no offense. this is merely my own personal view.~

like what started it was He had taken a new slave under Him so to say. and He had been talking about all her other Doms, two other main ones to be exact, plus Himself. And i just got a bit frustrated because i just flat out could not comprehend how she could give her submission so easily, so completely, to so many different Doms.

it just seemed that if she could submit completely to all these other Doms, what makes it special to one Dom in particular if she submits to Him? ( again using a Male/female simply because of the example, but this can certainly apply to any D/s relationship)

in my world, my submission is almost something to be earned. i've said it many times... i must be captured and conqured completely before i'll willing and completely submit. A Dominant must prove His domination over me before He recieves my full submission. i get His Dominance, guidance, care, and pride.... in return He gets my submission, devotion, respect, and love.

but if i were to give all these things to another Dom freely.... wouldn't that cheapen my submission? again, i don't want to insult anyone, especially someone like the above submissive i described.

i realize that alot of submissives train under different Dominants before they are truly owned. And that seems to make sense but at the same time... i still cant help but wonder about the value of submission when so many other's have experienced the gift, so to say.

maybe it all boils down to the difference between the people involved. at one point during the discussion with my Dom, He said this simply meant i wasn't really polyamorous. Which is fine. But some people are. He said, as a Dom, He didn't see His new submissive's submission as any less than say my own or any other's for that matter.

Thoughts......

[Guest 91108]

Psynymph i think you answered your own question.
" maybe it all boils down to the difference between the people involved. "

You can't rate yourself with the actions of others.

What one person does with the different Doms is likely to be more fulfilling than to be with only one Dom. It's not a measure of how good they are or not but rather the needs of the submissive being met.
hrm.. as to myself .. i find that because i have too much time i am able to actively engage more than one.. ie. a wife/sub.. an online sub or two ( at times ) and i don't think noone is not receiving what they need. and If that were to happen it's time for one or the other to move on.
simple.

Cheapened is a word that can cause many problems. I think the term is misused. The placing of value on the submissive and rating her in such a manner seems to me to be wrong.

[^firefly^]

Psynymph,

I started reading this thread, because I identified with a lot of what you had to say, in the very first post. I almost chimed in with a "hey...me, too!" yesterday. I've been thinking a lot this morning about the role online fills in my life, with regards to being submissive. Being here has been awesome, to me. I count myself incredibly lucky to have met some people who I can count as friends and teachers.

With regards to your last post, I can only offer my opinions (which are, of course, only *my* opinions, and certainly should be taken with a grain of salt if you disagree), being a sub very much like the one you described. I've been in a poly relationship, offline, before I found this forum. It ended badly. I spent a lot of time away from what I truly wanted (to be a submissive) because I felt there was something wrong, if what I wanted made things go so badly. It took me a very, very long time to realise there was nothing wrong with what I wanted, only that I chose the wrong people to want it with.

That said, do I think submitting to multiple Dominants cheapens my submission? In a word, no. I'd like to hope my current Master, online, would agree. I think there is something special about him, and I hope he thinks the same of me. No matter who I play with, or talk to, he is the one that I would give it all up for, the one that I would walk away from playing with others for, if he asked it of me. But he knows what makes me happy, and is willing to allow me to submit to others (within limits, that we both discussed). Does this type of D/s relationship work for everyone? I strongly suspect not. But it works for me/us, right now. It might work differently tomorrow, or next week. If so, we'll have to re-examine it, and see what we need to change, and if we are willing to make those changes.

I can only do what works for me. You have to do what works for you. I've given up comparing myself to other subs...in my own head I'm never good enough, pretty enough, sexy enough, quick enough, etc...ad nauseum. I'm trying to learn to be happy, where I am, doing what I do, in my own skin.

Sorry if I rambled. This is only my 2 cents, anyway, and should most certainly be taken as such. If you have questions, PM away. If you disagree, please speak up...I find the discussion most fascinating.

[Guest 91108]

...

I can only do what works for me. You have to do what works for you. I've given up comparing myself to other subs...in my own head I'm never good enough, pretty enough, sexy enough, quick enough, etc...ad nauseum. I'm trying to learn to be happy, where I am, doing what I do, in my own skin.

I for one hope Panther sees that and administers to you accordingly.
smiles .. Never down play ourself in comparison to others.

[tessa]

So glad this got bumped back up! The subjects, both of them now, interest me to no end.

And i just got a bit frustrated because i just flat out could not comprehend how she could give her submission so easily, so completely, to so many different Doms.

Ok, I don't get frustrated about it, but I can't comprehend it either, for Dom or sub. But for me, it's a trust issue. I mena, good grief! It took me almost 15 years to trust my husband enough to come to him with my submissiveness (and that has everything to do with me and my issues and nothing to do with my husband since he's as good as it gets). But if I try really, really hard, I can almost imagine that if trust doesn't have to be an issue, having more than one Dom would afford someone the chance learn from different perspectives. Which could be a positive.

in my world, my submission is almost something to be earned.

In my world, my complete submission borders on sacred. I hold it very close and deep. Some might say, "why do you take it all so seriously?" Because I do. That's my way. If another's way is to be open with more than one, great for them. My take on it all is that we are all different and we all enjoy different ways of doing things. If the relationship, for those involved, works to build up rather than tear down, go for it and squeeze every drop of wonderful out of it that can be had. I don't have to understand it to appreciate it.

~thinks on a few certain things and decides to add something~ At least in this case.

[shifha]

i was brought up like that too, Psynymph. When i was younger i went through a polyamorous phase, really just because i felt a desire for something and didn't know what it was- kind of an itch you can't manage to scratch.For the last 10 years i have been in a monogamous relationship, and my Master would never share me- he doesn't even allow me to wear a mini skirt! But i tend to feel a natural submission towards all males- its something that i just can't help, and i don't think it would be hard for me to have more than one Master. It doesn't have anything to do with love, or even sex, really, it just seems my place to serve, and makes me feel fulfilled. Generally i over compensate though, and most men think i'm a womens lib fanatic!!! As for love, i do love my Master very much, and would never disobey Him, so i guess that would make Him my only real Master. And firefly, subs are just the same as all women- we aren't barbie dolls. ( we have more moving parts).

[nk_lion]

This is an interesting topic, missed it before but I'm glad its up now.

While my family never really forced any philosophy about sex down on me, it was just an unspoken law that everyone, male and female, waited until marraige before having sex. Anything between the couple is encouraged behind closed doors is fine unless it's not mentioned to anyone else. To some extent, those ideals have influenced my views on relationships and sex, one being that I can not ever imagine myself having more then one partner. But a bdsm lifestyle would be okay as long as its monoganous and not breaking any of those virtueous 'laws'.