The place of sex in a D/s-bdsm relationship

[Jones, Nikka]

Before going off topic in another thread I took up JaneSC's and Finding Fantasy's suggestion to start this thread to discuss how important -or not- sex can be in this lifestyle. Is it just meant to enhance the D/s-bdsm experience or is it the other way around?

The sexual meanings of bdsm are numerous and undeniable. Do they apply only to doms or to subs? Is there a stage in the evolution of a dominant/submissive relationship when sex should not matter anymore or should it become more important?

And to bring out the heaviest of questions, What about love? In my opinion sex is optional in D/s-bdsm but love is not. I am sure there are those who will disagree. I would love to hear their point of view. To quote from the beautiful bdsm movie 'Secretary':"Does it look like I am doing anything sexual?"

[kittenfemme]

For me, love and sex are both optional. It's about seeing to the needs and desires of a Domme while still playing with ideas that I find exciting.

I've been part of the serving staff at parties, for instance. There was very little sexual about it, other than perhaps my attire. *blush* However, it fulfilled my desires by allowing me to perform for others and offer a valuable service. It's wasn't erotic per say (again, beyond the manner in which I was dressed and how my embarrassment over that affected how wet I became throughout the evening) but as I carefully maintained posture, refilled drinks, and did other simple duties exactly as my Domme had instructed I was quite sated.

There was no love. I'd only known the Domme for a few weeks. There was no sex directly involved or the promise of it after.

Trust, on the other hand, I find to be imperative. I'll usually play with someone in public or amidst a chose audience a few times before I decide I want to enter a more personal D/s relationship with them. I have to trust someone before even thinking of calling her Mistress.

In my own experiences, sex and love have greatly enhanced (and often equally confounded) the D/s relationships I've had. I prefer a Domme who is very strict in receiving what she wants, punishes by SM means and offers sexual rewards. Sometimes either or both of us fall in love. But sex and love aren't pivotal for me.

[Finding_Fantasy]

Sex for me is neither expected nor essential. As I said in the other thread, I am not a sexual person. Sure, I like sex as much as the next person but I have a lot of trouble getting going and will hardly ever go out and initiate it.

Why? To be honest, I don't know. Perhaps it is because I grew without much guidance in that area, maybe I just lack the hormones. Who knows.

So, sex is not a big part of BDSM for me. I like the serving and tasks. That is what I do as it makes people more comfortable. Sure we usualy have sex after we do a session, but it is more of an after thought than anythng, a way to blow off the excess energy we had built up after a flogging or what have you.

Now love...well I would have to say yes. I cannot submitt to someone fully whom I do not love. I would probably if it were supervised by someone who loves me because that would be a little extra garuantess that things will not go to far. Someone who does not love you might try to push you too far, someone who loves you most probably would not.

However, there are Dominants that train submissives and have strict rules that there is to be no sexual content. They train them to be submissive and that is that. No sex no nothing.

[Shellyfemme]

I tend to agree with kittenfemme; love and sex are optional. The first Mistress i fell in love with didn't have much to do with D/s, but more of an S&M play. Today i am deeply in love with the person i call Mistress. I believe our D/s relationship, and our partnership have thrived because of our love.

But if she was to tell me she was lending me off to one of her Dommes for the night, and i felt safe with that person i could very easily be there as a servant, a pain slut, or a sexual slut, and i feel i would enjoy the experience very much. ( as long as they respect my safe play, and sex practices )

[Cleo671]

I find the definition of a 'bdsm relationship' too general, what really is a bdsm d/s relationship in the definitive terms? 'Sex' is a subject that needs further clarification as well, because I'm taking it to be defined as 'coitus' in this topic.
The reason I ask this is because in every relationship, there is an element of d/s and individuals that don't 'actively' practice bdsm: in the form of 'parties', clubs, equipment or 'standard' definitions/roles. These individuals might not effectively realise or even define the bdsm element as 'bdsm' in their relationships but it's there. It can be there in the way that one person addresses the other, the authority one takes over the other person in bed or out.
Sex, sexual activity or the erotic element of a relationship (say between two people or more etc) as it is in 'conventional' non bdsm relationships -those that don't 'overtly' display bdsm roles in the way we are 'accustomed' to them - is not altogether a totally different concept. Sure there are individuals that might be 'sexually' satisfied (arousal, climax, resolution) by engaging in acts that don't necessarily conclude in any type of physical 'intercourse', but even that is sexual as well, to them it's sexual. A person might not have the desire to 'touch' another person, and be stimulated to orgasm just by being verbally 'humiliated' etc - non active or sexual participation, that is what they find erotic. Others get that mental satisfaction, not so much sexual satisfaction by bending another to their will etc, this can be sexual or it might not be but this can also take place in daily life as well where we don't observe the person being sexually aroused physically, but they might be aroused mentally - and even that can't be defined as 'non participation', as there 'is' participation although it's subdued or subtle. Having a slave or 'training' a slave, the procedure of bending another person to your own will, does give satisfaction to some, and there is an erotic element in that, the 'pleasure' principle of arousal is traversed. Sure it isn't 'physically sexual' in terms of people sexually interacting, but it's just another dimension, otherwise people wouldn't offer themselves up as 'potential' slaves or dominant people would not 'train' them.

Sex (in terms of coitus) doesn't require love in non -'bdsm' relationships for some, for others it's essential. Love is not essential for sex to take place in other words, for some it does. For others, for any type of bdsm to take place, love is 'essential' as 'love' is associated with 'trust' , but this is not essential either. Trust is an important concept in all types of relationships, just because a relationship features d/s or whatever other roles, doesn't mean that just becuase it is 'bdsm' related it 'should' have a higher 'trust' priority. Trust is trust.
In other words, bdsm relationships don't largely differ to any other types of relationships. Initially I thought that there were other 'factors' within them that set them apart from everyday conventional (sexual or not) relationships, but now I see that the dynamics are pretty much the same - a person can lose control in coitus or sex, just as they can when they restrain someone in bdsm. Rape play does occur in non bdsm relationships, just as spanking does, the fact that people might not openly categorise themselves as being a 'slave' ,'sub',master or openly attend bdsm parties etc, does not mean that they are poles apart from those 'in the scene'.

For me submission means the very definition of the word, it can be a sexual preference or a psychological state at a particular time. For others it is a full time state of mind which can be observed in the way they interrelate with the general circle of people around them. The same for dominance. I've experienced men that take a dominant 'role' in terms of role play only, during coitus but outside of this they are largely neutral in the everyday, whereas I have also experienced men that are just dominant in terms of their personality trait. I'm not submissive 'by nature', in that I will 'give' in my everyday, and I can appreciate that others are. For me submission is largely erotic, but not something which I will carry through in my everyday life 24/7, it all relates to giving 'sex' or erotic play more nuances, focusing on a specific end goal, increasing the stimulus somewhat. That's how I see bdsm in general, an increase of stimulus being required in order to reach that end goal of sexual satisfaction - sexual doesn't mean just physical release, but the mental interplay. If the mind doesn't 'engage', then our body won't respond in all areas of sex whether it's bdsm, or 'standard' (vanilla is just too 'categorical' a term for me to use).

Sometimes I feel that there is too much categorisation in bdsm, some stereotyping as well as way too many 'definitions', making it like a 'sub' category relating to 'relationships' - the bdsm vs 'vanilla' relationship for example. Just because some couples or individuals don't prefer to have a red raw ass, or want to practice suspension or other acts, doesn't necessarily mean that they don't incorporate bdsm in their daily life. I've seen men that do the whole 'spanking', costumed 'domination' bit, and that's fine, then again I've seen domination take place amongst some people I've known, in pure verbal and mental form amongst people that aren't 'effectively' in the scene itself - by scene I mean those that know all the 'terminology', that have bdsm 'aids' or go to dungeons etc etc.

Relationships are just that to me, relationships. That is the fundamental term. The foundation of any relationship can vary. Sexual relationships are just that as well, because every individual might have varying stimuli they find sexually arousing, but the end point or end goal is the same - sexual gratification. If love features, it's a bonus, if not, then that's fine as well, everyone is individual, and in relation to 'romantic' love or any type of love, it's more a time and place 'thing' - meeting that person at a particular time when one's frame of mind is ready to make that extra commitment.

[Thorne]

I want to thank the ladies who have already spoken out on this subject for their thought provoking comments. Once again I have had my eyes opened to the diversity of this community.

I have posted a few things in these forums, mostly on topics not directly related to BDSM. Partly, this is because I have a wide range of interests outside of BDSM that I sometimes feel I must comment on. And partly it is because I have not had too much real experience with it. What experience I have had has been mostly either through chat/email or over the telephone.

But in relation to this topic, I would like to say that I would find it very difficult, if not impossible, to have either a sexual or BDSM relationship with someone I did not love and respect. And I would hope that those feelings would be reciprocated by my partner. But in the context of BDSM, the act of lovemaking is not a prerequisite for me.

In the small handful of real life encounters I have had, some of them did involve sex, some did not. And to be honest, I think I enjoyed the ones without the act of sex more.

This isn't to say that sexuality is not important in what happens. I tend to focus on my bottom's sexual equipment more than the rest of her body, though I do realize that there are areas other than her breasts and genitalia that are stimulating to her. And I also understand that she tends to require some form of sexual release from a session, so I try to make certain that she will achieve orgasm...eventually!

But for my part, I get more pleasure from her willing acceptance of the bondage and sensual torture than I do from the actual sex act. And I don't always need to orgasm myself. I am fulfilled by the love and trust that she shows for me, and from knowing that I would not be able to do any of it without the love and respect I have for her.

I hope some of this makes sense to you.

[Finding_Fantasy]

I makes sense to me, Thorne.

There are times when TG does get his sexual gratification when I do not. And he feels bad for that but I tell him not worry about that. I am just happy knowing that he is fulfilled. That is better than an orgasm for me.

Sex is just an added bonus when we do our scenes. Usually more often than not we do end up having sex, but if it does not happen (usually when I am punished for something) it is not a big deal, at least for me.

[Shadoom]

Fascinating. Even in a non-mainstream activity, I can't seem to be mainstream.

My wife is bored with most BDSM movies. Her inevitable question is "Where's the sex?" If there isn't some sort of sex going on -- lesbian, hetero, whatever -- the movie bores her. Now, I can get hot-and-bothered by non-sexual domination, but I, too, prefer to see something more "interactive" -- be it weird machines, girl-on-girl, or male-female coupling.

BDSM is an important part of our sex life; ropes and clamps and prods stimulate my wife's libido and prolong the sexual act for me. We often do role-playing -- cowboy and Indian wench (she's Apache, I'm white) , burglar and late-night office worker, and other scenarios that might seem a tad cutesy for some. It involves rope, pain, pushing my wife beyond her inhibitions -- such as when I took her in her office one late night, after everyone else had gone home. Very dangerous (job wise) -- but extremely fullfilling for both of us. And I can't imagine doing that without sex involved.

Don't think we're just playing games; there's some serious control going on here, as when I "attacked" my wife in her office. It was a matter of domination, of making her do something she did not want to do, but that in the end she thoroughly enjoyed.

Our marriage is based on trust, love, and lust (in that order). Perhaps we're not "serious" BDSM "players"; for us, it is less a lifestyle than it is a powerful spice that keeps sex exciting after twenty years and three kids.

Maybe my wife and I are the "kinky" ones here, since love and sex are most certainly at the heart of our BDSM activities.

[jazz]

i personally don't think You are less than mainstream, Shadoom, let's face it, this is on some level a sexual activity, whether it is a cerebral sexual experience or a physical one. If this were not a sexual issue, we would not be listed in ADULT forums. We could discuss serving your dominant tea in the earshot of children.

Satisfaction can come in SOOO many ways, anyone who says the sex gratification is COMPLETELY not what it is about is....well....i don't even know what to call THAT. i may receive gratification from doing something totally unimportant to a sexual act, but doesn't it all feed into a more base human need?

Just as a disclaimer before i get someone jumping me, i am NOT saying that this type of relationship Dom/me / sub is ALL about sex for me. It is NOT. It is about trust and love and submission but if i didn't get some sexual gratification too would i be at this site? Or would i JUST go to Tammy Wynette's site and sing gloriously, "Stand by Your Man." i would subsribe to Martha Stewart's magazine and learn about whatever sport/hobby/activity my man wanted to participate in and be able to hold a conversation/participate/or perform in whatever capacity he wanted. Not to say that i don't do some of those things too...but if i didn't get SEXUAL gratification out of it too...i would NOT be here.

i believe that anyone who is here gets SOME form of sexual gratification out of what they do or they wouldn't be here.

Just my take on it!

jazz

[alura]

I haven't been in the community for very long; and have never been in a real life/real time dom/sub relationship as of yet; but from all that I have seen and read here on BDSM, my perspective is that, though there are obviously clear cut lines between doms/subs/whatever, there is still one basic truth that holds true.

A relationship is a relationship.

And how you work it out between you; between your beliefs, needs, desires, love and trust in each other, is just one more of a billion myriad shades in the BDSM spectrum.

Love/Trust is Trust\love = If it feels right for all concerned?

Then it is.

No matter what form it takes.

i personally don't think You are less than mainstream, Shadoom, let's face it, this is on some level a sexual activity, whether it is a cerebral sexual experience or a physical one. If this were not a sexual issue, we would not be listed in ADULT forums. We could discuss serving your dominant tea in the earshot of children.

Satisfaction can come in SOOO many ways, anyone who says the sex gratification is COMPLETELY not what it is about is....well....i don't even know what to call THAT. i may receive gratification from doing something totally unimportant to a sexual act, but doesn't it all feed into a more base human need?

Just as a disclaimer before i get someone jumping me, i am NOT saying that this type of relationship Dom/me / sub is ALL about sex for me. It is NOT. It is about trust and love and submission but if i didn't get some sexual gratification too would i be at this site? Or would i JUST go to Tammy Wynette's site and sing gloriously, "Stand by Your Man." i would subsribe to Martha Stewart's magazine and learn about whatever sport/hobby/activity my man wanted to participate in and be able to hold a conversation/participate/or perform in whatever capacity he wanted. Not to say that i don't do some of those things too...but if i didn't get SEXUAL gratification out of it too...i would NOT be here.

i believe that anyone who is here gets SOME form of sexual gratification out of what they do or they wouldn't be here.

Just my take on it!

jazz

[Locked Advantages]

With me I've alkways been a romantic, honestly I don't even think of sex when I think about BDSM, I guess because there are other ways to get turned on in the end to see what may happen throughout ones choices. That is excatly what it is a choice for the right person to decide what I desire when they experience everything for themselves

[SMartie57]

First of all, let me point out, how grateful I am for this thread. If I recall it correctly, it originates from a very different question raised my a member in another thread.

Second, hello again Nikka, I am very happy to see that your progress allows you to get involved in the community to such an extent again.

More on the subject matter here, may I present a male dominant view with a different angle. Throughout my adult life, I have had difficulties "performing" in one way or another for certain periods of time. I have struggled with this for a very long time (which did not make it esier on me or my respective partners), and found my peace only very recently. For me, sex is part of any relationship, vanilla or otherwise, and not being able to perform "the act" seemed to make me a "lesser" partner in my own eyes.

Thanks to a brief encounter with a submissive person, this perspective has changed. For the first time in my life, I did not feel "inferior", "inadequate" or such if I did not succeed in having sex with her. She taught me that the actual act can lose its importance, if there are strong feelings between caring partners, that sexual gratification can be so much more than a few minutes of "humping". And, as someone else also mentioned, it was she who worried about me not getting enough, while giving her pleasure.

To sum it up: sex can become of secondary importance, as long as there is love, trust and true partnership and sexual gratification is gained by both partners together, maybe through BDSM play.

SMartie57

[alura]

You are so lucky. Do you realize HOW lucky you are? I sincerely hope so.

Not many people are given the gift of someone who sees right through their outer body (not just looks, god forbid, but what they normally 'are', what they normally 'do') into their soul.

You have a rare woman. Don't LOSE HER. DON'T LOSE HER.

Hope I stressed that enough. =smile=

If you stop to think about it, arousal, love, everything...alll of it....99 percent or higher, it all originates from our mind. So how it's expressed from there...to here.... it's all still the same. LOVE.

You are so blessed. I wish the two of you EVERY EVERY EVERY happiness....

...with great envy, but blessings nonetheless.

[masterkurt]

Sex is essential to me in my BDSM relationships. I always state that BDSM is a 3-legged creature and its legs are Pain, Humiliation and Sexual use. The percentages of these three ingredients may vary according to the peolpe involved and the circumstances, but I would not like any of the 3 to be missing.

Most of my BDSM relations started with sex, while humiliation and pain came later and were increased more and more progressively.

My idea of a slave is in primis a sexual object .... caroline was used by me and my friends, was offered and rented and had been trained to give maximum sexual pleasure in any way requested by males or females, with consumed technical ability and the utmost passion and partecipation.

She had learned that she had no right over her own body, no right to modesty, no right to refuse anything ... she would have stripped naked in any place she was asked to do it ... the consideration about safety and opportunity was entirely left to me, her master or to her temporary owners, when she was rented or lent.

I always told her that her only right was to get pleasure from time to time .... not always.

She mostly was used sexually used after or during torture sessions, but we also had guests that were not interested in sex (intended as sexual acts) and in these cases she just endured long torture sessions without sexual release ... but those have been exceptions.

I also was very careful never to let her notice if I had to ask some guest to be more attentive or to reduce the strenght while whipping her. I wanted her to remain in the believe that she was used without any consideration (which was not true)

I agree that love is otpional ... but adds very much to the whole

[Finding_Fantasy]

Shadoom, just because sex is an important part of your relationship does not make it any less valid. There are many forms of Domination and submission beingcompletely physical to the completely mental and everywhere in between.

You do what works for you and if it works, then it's right.

Masterkurt, I must admit that I really admire carolines will to have no will (if that makes any sense) I could not imagine being rented out for sex or what ever deed what have you.

Mainly probably because of a past, non-bdsm related, relationship where my boyfriend at the time tried to sell me to one of his friends when he ran out of drug money and the ensuing terror that followed. I could not be "rented" out or lent without that nightmare coming back to me.

[Thorne]

Shadoom, one of the many things I have learned since getting on line and finding places like this is that there is no mainstream. There are so many variations, so much individuality, it's almost mind boggling.

If sex, as in the sex act itself, is important to you (and others here) then that is the way you must go. My preferences will be different from yours, and from most others. Your's are different from mine, and others. Sounds close enough to mainstream for me.

As long as you can find a partner whose needs and desires coincide with yours (not necessarily match but complement) then you will likely have a fulfilling relationship, no matter what kinks are or are not involved.

[masterkurt]

I can understand your psycological adversion to such an idea after those premises .... of course our case was rather different.
The idea of caroline being rented or lent to somebody grew very slowly in our common fantasies and was realized after many years of very profound relation. The thing happened a limited number of times and with very carefully chosen people. People that were tested first more than one time as guests and only afterwards got the chance of using caroline without mt presence.
Nevertheless we built some safety check into the matter.

[Shadoom]

Originally posted by jazz
i personally don't think You are less than mainstream, Shadoom, let's face it, this is on some level a sexual activity, whether it is a cerebral sexual experience or a physical one. If this were not a sexual issue, we would not be listed in ADULT forums. We could discuss serving your dominant tea in the earshot of children.

BDSM movies have always confused my wife, given the general lack of sex involved.

Simply getting tied up gets my wife bothered, but not hot. She finds no satisfaction in being tied up for "no reason" -- but she creams like a dairy farm when sex is involved. It doesn't even need to be coitus; I can masterbate her, or molest her tits, or tickle her, and she experiences incredible pleasure. While she *does* enjoy normal sex, she only comes hard (and often) when restrained and tortured.

From what I read here, it seems that many people find gratification in the ropes and pain alone. Which may explain (in addition to evarious smut laws) why the majority of videos focus on the bondage without any sex.

Fascinating, as Mr. Spock would say.

[Shadoom]

You do what works for you and if it works, then it's right.

That's always been my theory in life. I find it fascinating (there's that word again) how people have such divergent views of BDSM relationships.

[Nuadu]

I came to this site looking for some new bondage ideas. I am surprised by what I found; had never even heard of D/s! nor this lifestyle that most everyone here seems to be talking about. My personal opinion, which is actually a question in itself: why bother tying/cuffing or spanking/whipping/etc. if you aren't going to have sex? To me bondage without sex would be like eating icing without cake!

[vistana]

I came to this site looking for some new bondage ideas. I am surprised by what I found; had never even heard of D/s! nor this lifestyle that most everyone here seems to be talking about. My personal opinion, which is actually a question in itself: why bother tying/cuffing or spanking/whipping/etc. if you aren't going to have sex? To me bondage without sex would be like eating icing without cake!

I like your metaphor

Though I know people (including me) who do like to eat icing without cake. What I think is even weirder are people who like to eat cake, but with no icing!
*gasp, shock*

[ValKyrie]

I came to this site looking for some new bondage ideas. I am surprised by what I found; had never even heard of D/s! nor this lifestyle that most everyone here seems to be talking about. My personal opinion, which is actually a question in itself: why bother tying/cuffing or spanking/whipping/etc. if you aren't going to have sex? To me bondage without sex would be like eating icing without cake!

Sometimes, it is the cake I want.
Sometimes, the icing.
Sometimes the entire dessert menu.



We enjoy BDSM throughout our day and certainly, it doesn't always lead to orgasm or need to.

Sex is always highlighted by something D/s, whether it is simply his not orgasming without permission or my use of mild CBT as foreplay. However, our intense scenes, including bondage, flogging, wax play etc seldom lead to sex unless it is for my benefit i.e. face sitting or masturbating for him.

Honestly, I can't tell you the whys of this, but can tell you it works nicely for us.

Intercourse happens daily and is our special physical communion, but doesn't happen every time we are stimulated. I do believe that this leads to OR is the result of our being two very highly sexually charged individuals and as a couple.....mmmmmmmm

A thought that is formulating as I sit here and type is this: Sometimes, I use sex and orgasms as another "toy," tool or implement of BDSM. Other times, sex is communication and affection. Additionally, it is simply a matter of physical need. Sex can play many roles, physically, mentally, and emotionally and for us, depending on what those needs are, the needs may define and direct the act.

Signing off before my ramblings become too confusing!

[csr]

A thought that is formulating as I sit here and type is this: Sometimes, I use sex and orgasms as another "toy," tool or implement of BDSM. Other times, sex is communication and affection. Additionally, it is simply a matter of physical need. Sex can play many roles, physically, mentally, and emotionally and for us, depending on what those needs are, the needs may define and direct the act.

Well put.
I came into BDSM thinking of it as an adjunct to sex... we were just really kinky in the bedroom, and any playing would always end in orgasm. It was just kinky foreplay.

The first time I learned of play parties, most of which do not allow any form of "traditional sex" I thought it was weird. I couldn't see myself wanting the bondage or torture, without that release. So we tried it... at first, by just playing, then waiting a few hours, doing other things, then heading to the bedroom for sex later. Being turned on all day is of course a pleasureable torture in itself.

Well, eventually one day we played and never got to the second part and it hit me suddenly (no pun intended) that being physically punished and all the emotions involved in a really good scene is terrific mental sex. Truly getting into sub-space is as good as, and even shares many of the physical results of an orgasm.

As we also have days of no play and just vanilla sex, I would have to 100% echo ValKyrie's opinions on cake:

Sometimes, it is the cake I want.
Sometimes, the icing.
Sometimes the entire dessert menu.

[Finding_Fantasy]

Someone said something to me once that really stuck. They compared BDSM (and life in general) to a buffet. You browse the selection put a little of this and a little of that one your plate and the stuff that you don't want or need you leave behind.

I liked that. It's not just BDSM that is diverse it is life in general though perhaps those involved in BDSM are a little bit more tolerant than those who are not (on average) becuase of the prejudices against us.

It has to be diverse because there are so many activities, fetishes, and ways of doing things that one coule not possibly encompass them all without fear of driving yourself mad!

As for sex, I like sex better when I am tied up or what have you. It is much more fun in my opinion but I do not actually "get off" from the act of being tied up. I just enjoy it. I need some form of sexual contact to have an orgasm but there lies what I am trying to say.

Orgasms are not important to me. I would rather be satisfied mentally having performed some task, done a long session of candle wax or flogging without begging to have it stop, than to have physical sexual pleasure and cumming until I pass out.

I guess you could say I sort of have a mental orgasm.

[Cleo671]

Male physicians and researchers have created this 'focus' on orgasm. I remember being young and coming across the Kinsey report for that year, reading the Shere Hite 'surveys', Nancy Friday edited 'collections' (in her "Men in Love'' collection I came across the very first male fantasy that was submitted and it invovled a woman being tied up and sexually taunted, and that kind of made an imprint).. then there is Freud, the 'clitoral vs vaginal orgasm', the 'vaginal' orgasm today can be more associated to G Spot direct stimulation. Orgasm is more a physiological reaction, or has been physiologically defined? But it's not the same for every woman.

The common description I found amongst female friends as a late teen and in my early adulthood was the one where the woman was 'swept away' ( 'by waves of warm pleasure?' lol), kind of like the descriptions that were written in Romance novels. I'd have friends saying (of their first sex experiences etc) 'oh yes, I 'came''..or 'I had an orgasm!'...and I would sit there completely perplexed, because this was something that was eluding me - not in a solo sense it wasn't, I could reach the 'zenith' of sex all on my own but when it came to being with a person? No go - so for many years it wasn't a search of 'attaining' that orgasm with someone, but upon concluding sexual activity 'lying' there with the question: 'Did you feel pleasured?' as in whole body pleasure or even mental pleasure, because mind and body are closely linked.

For many years, even up to now, there are many psychologists still at loggerheads about the famous Descartes 'Mind vs Body' debate, and many 'non academics' fully realise that there usually is a link between the mind and the body, and then you might have scientists, etc stating that it's still 'under debate'.. such that women (especially) are uncertain as to what they are supposed to feel when they initially set out for the sexual journey.

So after many years, for me, sexual satisfaction can be anything. It can be associated with that sexual release that comes after male ejaculation (for some men, and this is fine), it can come from the feeling of pleasuring another.
Although I do have a problem with two things in my head.
Lately I see, or find (in my own 'thoughts') that bdsm is something that is more 'complex' in stimulation, compared to the conventional 'roll in bed' so to speak, a higher physical threshold is required, or preferred, or even a mental threshold, I can't fully explain it.
So the pleasure aspect, can't be defined within the standard 'sexual' research that takes place, or surveys.

When I was 13, I kind of stole my cousin's copy of the Cosmo report, and I'll never forget one section that asked couples what they found 'stimulating', the only option (apart from the standard, kissing, cunnilingus, fellatio, caressing etc) that wasn't 'conventional' was 'bite, slapping, pinching' - that was it. Even today, some surveys focus on the general or they don't go further in the options, or some sexual aspects are viewed as being 'distasteful'. In Friday's introduction in Men in Love, she even says that after reading the letters that were submitted to her she had an 'urge to wash' her hands.

Sometimes I think that many 'assumptions' of what sex ought to 'be' come from circles (academic usually): 'orgasm' being the perfect conclusion to sex.

But what is an 'orgasm' to one person, may be a totally different thing to another person. Orgasm is just another term for climax, the point a person reaches where they reach their physical zenith.
That's my own personal definition -it can be mental, physical(in a non 'romantic' sense), finally after many years of seeking some 'physical' definition that's been the basis of many sex books.

[drake7]

In response to the original post:

Human behavior is remarkably complex due to the remarkable complexity of our brains. An activity that the rest of the animal world treats without a second thought takes on a whole new set of implications for us because of our great big brains.

It is not a subject easily discussed in a reply to a post; but basically because of the complexities of modern life coupled with our complex brain structure and our ever present "primitive" drives it can be very difficult to have a fulfilling sex life without compartmentalizing our sexuality from the rest of our day to day lives.

This is particularly true with fetish type lifestyles where the roles played by each participant are sometimes at odds with the roles in day to day life. This is also just as true in normal relationships. Both men and women want to have a deep loving relationship with their partner, but romantic love and extremely exciting sex can at times be at odds with one another which is why it is important for couples to acknowledge the need to have a dual relationship to express both the higher "big brain" ideas of love and the "smaller brain" ideas of purely animal sexuality. A perfect example of this that most people have heard about or experienced first hand is if you have a certain "kinky thing" you are interested in, but could never bring it up with your significant other because of your feelings for them. This is why it is important to realize in a relationship we all play different roles and it is important to understand when and how to separate them.

If you would like to discuss this topic more send me an email or pm. I am considering the topic as a theme for a research paper and would enjoy the discourse.

Drake.

[slavelucy]

hmmm, i'd have to say that for me personally, sex (using the term very broadly) is quite an important factor in BDSM. This is probably because being in a D/s relationship of any sort, to whatever degree has always ignited such passion in me (again, used broadly), both physically and spiritually....and has seemed to do equally with any Dominant with whom i have been involved. Hence, it seems to me that sexual feelings are inexorably linked with D/s relationships and BDSM in general. i also believe that being as most of us probably had our earliest fantasies regarding BDSM around the time of the onset of puberty, it is bound to in some way always be associated (for me anyway) with sexual feelings to some degree.

i am not saying that D/s cannot sometimes take on a very non sexual apperance (such as being generally submissive in terms of getting someone's coffee, doing someone's bidding etc), but, for me, this only adds to the over all submission and consequently the over all pleasure. Nor am i saying, of course that i place my sexual pleasure above all else in the relationship...this would remove the point of being a submissive and i would cease to be arroused anyway; but subs are still human i may give up my right to orgasms when i see fit, but it doesn't stop me wanting them *g*.

i'm not sure i agree that love has to always feature in D/s relationships (although i reckon it sure helps, especially long term) but i certainly think, speaking as a submissive, that respect is paramount, i couldn't even contemplate submitting, in any way, to someone for whom i didn't respect, as a person.


Very interesting thread this.

sl

[BruceBoxer]

Sex is the critical part of a relationship for me--when enjoyed in the context of BDSM, it raises it to a level of raging erotic as it amplifies a rather simple pleasurable physical activity to an art form that can range from cartoonish to thrilling to a four act Broadway production --or in some cases, a three-ring circus.

[redEva]

It took me a while to get involved in this one (not that I did not follow it ) just because it seems that I usually have waaaayyy different views on sex and relationship in general, from other people.

I am not sure where – but at some point I found some definitions about what kinds of submissives there are; and the one I can identify most comfortably with would be “sexual submissive” which means that my submissiveness exists only in bedroom (when and if ).

So, that would make sex as a primary and the utter most important part of my BDSM relationship – but….

In my humble opinion, sex is an activity, and a category of a relationship, on its own. In order to have sex – I do not think 2 people (or more *grin*) should necessary be in a relationship, or in love.

As far as BDSM relationship – the only necessary ingreedient (again IMHO) is trust.

Now – if we are talking a long-term relationship (like marriage) there needs to be a right amount of love, attraction, trust, tolerance, understanding and individuality to make it work.

I believe that there is to many people out there, all with different tastes, needs and expectations, for any of us to be able to give “one-for-all” definition of what “real” relationship is. It depends on people involved in it.

For some (like me) sex is the BDSM arena, for other (FF – I think) it is every day mundane activities that help her feel happy in her servitude.

In response to the topic of this thread: “The place of sex in a D/s-bdsm relationship” my answer would be : what ever feels right and makes all parties involved happy and fulfilled.

That would be my 2 cents worth

[restraint]

Definately an interesting thread....and one which i'm sure will have different interpretations depending on the individual.

Personally it's the denial of sexual gratification that makes me strive harder during a scene. In saying that, i do believe that some form of orgasm (or sexual relief) is good.....unless the Domme is being particularly nefarious and wants to play mindgames with Her subject

Once i have achieved relief the scene is dead for me, but the denial of that same relief can keep me on edge for hours, days, who knows how long and the closer it gets the harder i tend to push my limits for Her.

In the back of my mind i've always thought that a truly cruel Domina would ensure Her subject masturbates, or otherwise achieves orgasm BEFORE commencing play. Guaranteed it hurts twice as much when not in the right mindspace

Ultimately it's the Dominants right to grant relief, choose to have sex with the sub, or simply walk away......and maybe thats where this thread could combine with the "Chastity" topics posted earlier on