What's the difference between sweet BDSM love and abuse?

[TomOfSweden]

As a BDSM party organiser, this is an important issue for me on several levels.

As far as I can tell the only difference is that if it's abuse going on the slave is unhappy. And submissives being their lovable submissive self means that they're likely to talk themselves into believing they aren't being abused when they are.

What I'm asking is how can I tell? I don't really have the tools to put my foot down and say, "Hey, you suck. Get out of here you abusive cunt rag!". I have a great power within the community because once a rumor starts it is very hard if even possible to clean off. I don't want to abuse this power.

We had a rapist coming once. Granted that I had to take the victims word for it, but it was someone I knew well and used my judgment and had him banned. Admittedly I could be wrong. I will not persecute if I don't have plenty of stuff to back it up with. I'd rather let people get away with it if I'm not sure. Rape is a quite obviously a not-ok act.

So help me out here? What characterizes a purely abusive act? How can I from the outside tell? We have lots of guys I'd label as total idiots, but they seem to have no trouble making women happy, so I don't butt in. I'd never have opinions on other peoples road to happiness. As long as it is happiness of course.

I'd just like to add that when it comes to this, I'm extremely delicate and careful. Stuff like this can quickly unnecessarily tear apart a functioning scene. Even if some members might be abusive.

[GS42]

Of course, any other would say hitting someone or tying 'em down is pretty abusive, but leave it to us to complicate matters.

Simple answer I guess is, in the worst cases, you can't tell. This is because in the worst cases, someone who is abused doesn't think so him/herself. These will be people who think badly of themselves and are generally not comfortable with who they are. It's easy to abuse that. It's downright impossible to stop from the outside: they will find someone to hurt 'em eventually.

In other cases, such as rape, it is hard also. Noone is willing to admit to being raped, especially if that person is in the BDSM scene.

My best guess as how to guard a scene is making sure everyone knows you are the boss and where they can report problems. Also sharing information with other clubs (if any) seems a smart step to take.

If you think someone is being abused, talk to them, preferable seperate. If they say they're not, even though you think they are, you can't help. Just make sure they know where to come if and when they change their mind.

[gemmy]

From reading the topic heading, the immediate answer seems quite easy:

Abuse is anything non-consensual

But reading the question fully, i can see your dilema Tom and yes, you are right, abuse victims with low self esteem won't say it's abuse unfortunately.

As GS42 says, try talking to them separately and give them your support and maybe they will come to trust you enough to tell you what's really going on.

Alternatively, i think you personally probably know the people and players in your community and who are the valid ones and who aren't so you may want to try to go to another submissive to talk with who you think is being abused, sometimes it's better accepted coming from a peer and not another authority figure

Really education and awareness will help - show the victim that it's not acceptable to be treated as such and any i have met in my local community are quick to share that information and to be sure everyone is being safe

[Polaris]

Please don't understand this as an attack or anything like that, but I really feel that I have to comment on that:

Simple answer I guess is, in the worst cases, you can't tell. This is because in the worst cases, someone who is abused doesn't think so him/herself. These will be people who think badly of themselves and are generally not comfortable with who they are. It's easy to abuse that. It's downright impossible to stop from the outside: they will find someone to hurt 'em eventually.

I agree that in the worst cases you can't tell. I'd even say that in most cases you can't tell -- and that in most cases, victims of abuse of any kind will deny being abused. It is usually a very long and very painful journey to figure out that abuse is abuse and not "him being difficult".

What I would strongly like to contest is the notion that "These will be people who think badly of themselves and are generally not comfortable with who they are." Not all people who have issues with themselves are in abusive relationships. Neither is having issues an open invitation for abuse. This is completely disregarding just how skillful abusers are: They are masters of manipulation and deception. They will, in most cases, appear to you as the most wonderful persons you have ever met...kind, supportive, caring -- you name it, they do it. They establish themselves in a certain way, and behind the facade start to undermine their victims' self-esteem, as well as their conviction or even the slightest thought that they have some value at all.

I would also like to add that I find a phrase like "they will find someone to hurt 'em eventually" offensive, although I am sure it was not meant that way. This is blaming the victims of abuse for the abuse they had or have to endure. People who are abused do not run around searching for somebody to hurt them. They, at least in most cases, fall in love with somebody who will not treat them like they deserve. They lack the healthy reaction of saying "enough". They believe that the way they are treated is normal, that this is how life works, and often have never experienced anything different either. It is not wrong to believe that if you tell your partner that you are hurt by something, it will be in their best interest to stop it. This is not the same as actively finding somebody to hurt you.

I really don't want to write a novel about the dynamics of abusive relationships, I just felt the need to clarify that. I don't know how to address the original problem in this thread effectively...it is very hard to tell from the outside, and the power gradient that signifies many BDSM relationships is, I believe, further disguising the problematic (I do not mean that BDSM and abuse of any kind have anything in common, just in case this came out wrong). If you were on the receiving end, I'd say "trust your guts" -- if it feels like abuse, it is abuse. I am not sure if this is also applicable to an outside observer.

In general, I believe that there are several signs one can watch out for. Disrespect would be one. Abusers -- I am generalising here -- respect nobody but themselves, and least of all their partners. So if there is no respect, no caring towards the other I'd say it's an indicator. Another thing would be 'irrational' emotional responses, most of all fear, expressed in situations that don't really call for such a reaction. I'd say watch out for the subtle things, and talk to the maybe-victim if you feel something is odd. I'm afraid that doesn't help a lot after all. As said, I don't know how to solve the problem.

Asides that, it is NOT TRUE that you cannot help victims of abuse. You cannot force them to leave their abusers, and you cannot force them to never step into the same traps again. But you can point them into the right direction, be understanding and supportive -- you can help to lift the veil. Most of us don't want to see the light, simply because looking at it means to look at your world collapse. At the same time, once you see it -- well, you can't look away anymore. And that's the mother of all change.

I'm sorry if this didn't help much, it's just a topic that I find personally and universally important. So, just my two cents coming from my own and subjective perception

[TomOfSweden]

Alternatively, i think you personally probably know the people and players in your community and who are the valid ones and who aren't so you may want to try to go to another submissive to talk with who you think is being abused, sometimes it's better accepted coming from a peer and not another authority figure

But even if I do know them intimately, or think I do... who am I to come there and have opinions? Finding mr right in the fetish world is not easy. Not only is it small, doms are scarce. I've seen desperation drive otherwise smart girls into relationships which aren't healthy.

And a lot of subs are just not playing it safe. You know these girls who enter the scene with a bang. Usually hot and young and end up feeling violated and pissed off that nobody was there to catch them. And leave as soon as suddenly as they came damning the whole scene. Even if I can see what's going to happen well in advance, speaking up isn't necessarily a good thing. These girls have got to learn sooner or later. As much as I hate to let the idiot masters I mentioned earlier get laid with young how chicks, it might as well be those guys teaching the girls what men to avoid.

This is not an easy situation. The kind of relationships I want to be able to intervene in, is relationships which are potentially dangerous and seem to be dragging on far longer than a short unpleasant lesson should take. ...and then again... who am I to come and have an opinion? What makes me all wise and all knowing? How can I possibly not come across as a swollen ego buffoon?

[lily27]

You aren't asking an easy question, Tom. However, I think it is an excellent one.

I think the primary answer is to be a friend, and make sure to listen, really listen, to anyone who wants to talk to you. The reality is that it is unlikely that someone will abuse someone else in public. Such things go on behind closed doors. Only when things are really advanced might they slip up when other people are around. So we all need to be a willing ear to those around us.

For me, I think the following helps to define abuse:

Intent - a loving Dominant does what he does because he has the best interests of his submissive at heart. He wants to meet her needs, teach her, and raise her up. An abuser has his own interests in mind. What he is doing to her is only for himself.

Control - a loving Dominant is always in control. He won't punish when he is angry. If he finds himself slipping out of control, he removes himself from the situation. An abuser is out of control, and the worst abuse will often occur when he is angry.

Consent - in a loving relationship a submissive consents to all activities. Not so with abuse. Safewords and limits may not be respected.

Activities - even though we all have our own kinks, there are some things that we agree aren't very "common" fantasies. Even the most extreme painsluts don't have black eyes very often. I am not saying it isn't out there, but I personally don't know of anyone who fantasizes about being punched in the face, or kicked in the ribs.

Happiness - a sub in a loving relationship will be happy and feel freed by her submission. An abused sub will feel unhappy and beaten down. She may feel trapped.


All of these are subtle things, which unfortunately goes with the territory with what it is that we do. So I think we all need to be vigilant. We probably won't ever "see" abuse, but we may hear about it, and we owe it to ourselves, our friends, and our community.

Some notes though. I have used the masculine to describe the abuser, and the feminine to describe the victim just because it was easier. Certainly men can be abused, and women can be abusers, so gender is not a qualifying factor.

Also, just the word "abuse" does not signify abuse. We actually use it as a play word. "Please abuse me, Master," and "I think you need to be abused, slut," are common in our household, but does not signify actual abuse.

Sorry to muddy your waters, Tom. If only all of the murderers, rapists and abusers were branded with scarlet letters, our jobs would be so much easier.

[Isabella King]

As a complete novice - in that I have never been to a party or had to search for a like-minded mate - I would say it must be damned near imposible to pinpoint a predator with evil intent, especially as all they have to do to get what they're after is to come across as 'nice.'


So, surely it has to be down to the subs - girls or boys - to take responsibility for their own safety. You have to have a set of rules to stick to - and stick to them rigidly in the event of desire or alcohol, or both, lowering your resistance.

[crazy_grrluk]

ill come back to this one as i am not sure quite how to answer this one yet. esp as i am a victim of abuse myself

[TomOfSweden]

ill come back to this one as i am not sure quite how to answer this one yet. esp as i am a victim of abuse myself

Are you a victim of abuse now?

[Tojo]

I don't envy your postion Tom- you're pretty much planning on doing the impossible.

I have two suggestions, one that's been mentioned- to make yourself available & listen to subs. A part of that is to ask questions.

The other is to learn about abuse in general. It's not limited to the BDSM community, & can be explained in general terms.

Where it gets tricky, is that many people are willing to overlook a 'small amount' of abuse, & even welcome it sometimes.

I do know that the average in the 'straight' world is that a woman leaves her abusive husband 7 times, before she makes the final break. I also know that it generally takes two to create the abuse- the abuser & the victim. Few confident powerful women are abused.

It's all a question of balance

*Note- I'm well aware that abuse is not just against women.

[gemmy]

ill come back to this one as i am not sure quite how to answer this one yet. esp as i am a victim of abuse myself

*hugs cg hun* i have found it's a common thread among many subs and one i share as well

[alpha_Straye]

please Sir, i guess im a little confused by the question. While it's sweet to want to thoroughly safeguard everyone, You would need to know the ins and outs of each person's mind to an extent that just isnt reasonable for just a party organiser, is it? Plus, an activity or treatment one finds fabulous another might find abusive and they both may be right for their own situation. So much of it is subjective...

Please Sir, i would tend to imagine all You could do is set general rules on what activities You will tolerate or not at said gathering. If people want to do something not allowed on the list then they can do it at their own place. That way, if its clear ahead of time before anyone starts doing their thing then the judgement can be on something less subjective- did they break the house rules or not? Less room for arguments *smile*

Please Sir, i imagine some judgement would still be needed of course but a clear outline of unacceptable activities or behaviours before anyone starts ought to make Your job much easier and keep people from coming back on You if they dont like Your opinion. It's still kind of You to be a listening ear but then that could then be seperate.

Or was i unhelpful?*smile* did i miss the point? well, it was just an idea anyways ..

[TomOfSweden]

I don't envy your postion Tom- you're pretty much planning on doing the impossible.

Well, it's not a unique position for just me. Anybody at the party/in the Stockholm scene has a responsibility to take care of others in it. If nothing else, just to keep the scene alive.

I have two suggestions, one that's been mentioned- to make yourself available & listen to subs. A part of that is to ask questions.

This is so difficult. My former room-mate and also one of the main organisers of these parties was a dom who listened. There's this thing with subs that they have a pronounced tendency to have all these sob stories that after you've listened for a while realise that they're just wallowing in pointless self pity. My former room mate was fed streams of complete bollocks each time he was planning to get laid. I heard most of it.

I think it's a cultural thing. Being submissive is somehow considered to be the result of some kind of damage so subs tend to go out of their way to find this traumatic thing to explain their abnormal behaviour, no matter how silly this trauma is. I don't think pervyness is the result of a trauma. Not at all.

My point with all this was to say that being available to women still might not help, because it will be impossible to tell the whiners from the women with real problems.

...and aren't abused women sadly the best at maintaining a stiff upper lip? My mother was and still is an abused women. In her fantasy land all is great. She's been through so much and so long I doubt she'd recognise reality if she left my dad. Above all, she doesn't want to be saved. According to her they have really good sex and that is why she stays, even though I'd call their relationship a disaster. So I grew up with this kind of shit really close to me, and I still can't tell the difference from outside.

[Isabella King]

I think it's a cultural thing. Being submissive is somehow considered to be the result of some kind of damage so subs tend to go out of their way to find this traumatic thing to explain their abnormal behaviour, no matter how silly this trauma is. I don't think pervyness is the result of a trauma. Not at all.

I really hope this isn't true - it certainly isn't for me. I mentioned on another thread how worrying it was that so many subs seem to have been abused and I really hope that those who haven't will stand up and disprove this.

[crazy_grrluk]

Are you a victim of abuse now?

no. havent been since last sept when my nightmares were all over. the physical abuse stopped a couple of years but the mental abuse carried on for much longer, even tho I had moved to a different part of the country.

A lot of things still trigger off memories and I recluse back into my shell to the point where Sadistic1 (S1) has to work harder to get me back to the point before the trigger happened. It is him that I feel sorry for sometimes because it wasnt his doing in the 1st place. It's like sometimes I shut him out and just curl up in a corner as he would tell you himself. Oneday he found me in the dark in the corner of the lounge shaking and crying.

Is the same when I see a bamboo cane... even tho they intrigue me.. I know what they can do. I see the canes as signs of abuse. Those who know my BDSM abuse story will know what I am talking about. The story is around this forum somewhere.

I am lucky to have S1. We have known each other for 5 years and in that time we have grown from just plain friendship to what we are today.

[TomOfSweden]

I really hope this isn't true - it certainly isn't for me. I mentioned on another thread how worrying it was that so many subs seem to have been abused and I really hope that those who haven't will stand up and disprove this.

What I do think is that trauma can cause us to discover who we are and what is important for us. Trauma makes us wake up and realize that life is short. Trauma makes us realize there is no hiding from life. So I do think there's a connection between pervery and some sort of trauma. Any trauma at any time. But I don't think it's necessary.

There's a also this theory about fetishes coming from getting a masturbatory habit before one loses ones virginity. This habit then has to be incorporated into the sex for the pleasure centres in the brain to realize that it is in fact sex going on. If we accept this theory, there's no trauma needed either.

And maybe most important. All people at some point in their lives have been abused, but there seems to only be a certain type of person who dwells on them. Last autumn there was a report on people who'd been the victim of sexual abuse and how their lives was 30 years on. They don't seem to have any more dysfunctional lives than the part of the population who weren't sexually abused. The only differences is that the dysfunctional people who'd been abused, blamed their dysfunction on their sexual abuse.

I don't want to play down those who have been through emotionally distressing trauma. I've been the victim of many many years of abuse at the hand of my father. Writing about it still chokes me up. If I wouldn't I'd be a emotionless robot. But if I don't scratch at the sore it's nothing that bothers me today. I don't want to come across as an incentive crud. But just opening ones heart and blindly accepting grievances from people at my parties, I don't think is a good way to find who's been abused. If that's what Tojo meant? If anything it'll just make my ears bleed.

.... this is starting to get a bit derailed I see. But I guess I'm the guilty one. My original question was quite specific. How can I tell when a BDSM relation is not healthy. I need something people wear as a badge I can pick up on, and ask about.

How about this formulation: This is directed to slaves who are in what they would characterize as a healthy BDSM relationship. What do you think could turn your otherwise healthy relationship bad. What if the same sexual acts are performed but the dom changes his demeanor which makes it abusive?

Yes, this is equally a question to male and female subs alike. I just felt like making my life easy when picking gender in my question.

[Alex Bragi]

Another great thread and topic for discussion, Tom.

BDSMTourguide wrote an excellent essay on BDSM verses Abuse some time back (that I'm rehashing yet again) that you may find help and certainly interesting. The thread also has a some very good posts from a couple of our newer members.

[gagged_Louise]

Yes, a great and very candid thread. This is the forum at its best! I've noticed too that many submissives have been through violation or abuse in early years (so have not a few women artists) and in some instances it will have contributed to the submissive leaning, but that doesn't give anyone the moral right to say "well, she was raped once, so that's what pushes her there to look up that kind of guy again". Much less to say all subs are old rape victims!

And I'd totally agree with you Tom that sometimes it takes a trauma, danger, a loss, to make things stand out clearer and to realize the limitations of life - or to see that one is presently living in a too narrow and pinked-up world.

[crazy_grrluk]

BDSMTourguide wrote an excellent essay on BDSM verses Abuse some time back (that I'm rehashing yet again) that you may find help and certainly interesting. The thread also has a some very good posts from a couple of our newer members.

I knew my story was somewhere and it is in that thread...tx Alex smiles

[TomOfSweden]

I knew my story was somewhere and it is in that thread...tx Alex smiles

Thanks for that post. I'd say that your story is a good example of master behavior I was trying to identify. Was there any sign before this ordeal that should have tipped you off? I'm not saying if it should then, because it obviously didn't. But if you found the same kind of guy today, what could you do or ask for to make sure he isn't as abusive as that guy was? Can you think of anything?

[TomOfSweden]

I'd also like to add that when I started my journey into the BDSM lifestyle I was pretty fucking far from safe and sane. Consensual, yes. But that was the sum of my good qualities. Today I would label the old me as abusive. A manipulative scum-bag who lied to and took advantage of submissive women for no other reason than to swell my ego a bit.

With this I want to say that I have a good vantage point from which to see which kind of guys are doing this. At least the ones who are like I was. And it's very very many.... but still... it doesn't have to be abuse. The worst and most morally corrupt idiot can still make a woman happy. A woman lied to can still be happy.

When I was at my worst I had a few girls who kept coming back for more. They still stop me in the street for a chat when we meet now 10 years later. Even though to most of these girls I was only being a total cunt. All the time. And they were miserable because of me.

Anyway, Internet complicates things. Because today abusive masters can use the SSC lingo and go through all the motions without actually being SSC. Information doesn't only allow would be abusers to learn more, and grow out of it, (which was a part of my own saving) but it could also be used as a tool for abusers to better hide their abuse.

I know one guy specifically who I'd label as abusive but who has great respect in my own BDSM organization. He's even my current slaves ex so I may have a bit clouded judgment here But it's far from clear he's abusive. It was not the reason my slave left him.

[jeanne]

I really hope this isn't true - it certainly isn't for me. I mentioned on another thread how worrying it was that so many subs seem to have been abused and I really hope that those who haven't will stand up and disprove this.

Here I am, standing up.

What I do think is that trauma can cause us to discover who we are and what is important for us. Trauma makes us wake up and realize that life is short. Trauma makes us realize there is no hiding from life. So I do think there's a connection between pervery and some sort of trauma. Any trauma at any time. But I don't think it's necessary.

This I do believe. The trauma doesn't even have to be negative. Just something that makes us re-examine our life and decide to make changes that involve honoring ourselves and who we really are.

There's a also this theory about fetishes coming from getting a masturbatory habit before one loses ones virginity. This habit then has to be incorporated into the sex for the pleasure centres in the brain to realize that it is in fact sex going on. If we accept this theory, there's no trauma needed either.

This is interesting. I've never even made that connection. Thanks, Tom!

How about this formulation: This is directed to slaves who are in what they would characterize as a healthy BDSM relationship. What do you think could turn your otherwise healthy relationship bad. What if the same sexual acts are performed but the dom changes his demeanor which makes it abusive?

Good question! I guess if the relationship began to interfere with my ability to function normally in my everyday life. If I began to feel negatively afraid of Him. (A little healthy, delicious, OMG fear is a good thing!) If, after our time together, I felt bad about my own submissiveness.

I'd also like to add that when I started my journey into the BDSM lifestyle I was pretty fucking far from safe and sane. Consensual, yes. But that was the sum of my good qualities. Today I would label the old me as abusive. A manipulative scum-bag who lied to and took advantage of submissive women for no other reason than to swell my ego a bit.

Thank you for your honesty here, Tom. You've mentioned in other posts that you've grown and changed over the years. It's nice to know that you have the ability to do some self-examination. An important quality in a Dominant, I think.

[TomOfSweden]

This is interesting. I've never even made that connection. Thanks, Tom!

This is the run-of-the-mill standard explanation to how we develop fetishes today. This is what text books say today. Whether it's true or not I have no idea about. I really have no opinion. Figuring out why we have a fetish, I don't think is half as important as identifying them and making the best of them.

[TomOfSweden]

So this is a huge assumption but if I were in your place TomofSweden, I would be looking for a total lack of communication between the Dom/sub coupled with a quiet introverted withdraw from the sub and an illusion of subspace. I call it illusion because they will appear as though they are in subspace but I associate subspace with a good happy pleasing orbital experience whereas an abused person will go into a safe space that is created for their mental welfare. Multiple personalities are a very extreme example. For me though the biggest sign would be a sense that something was not right about the scene in addition to the lack in communication. I think it really might take one to know one or even have the ability to spot one.

That I think was some really good and helpful advice. I think withdrawal of a sub is one of those good things to keep an eye for. But people drop in and out of the scene all the time. I fear that an abusive BDSM relationship they'll both get increasingly isolated from the scene... at least if we follow that article which Alex posted. But I guess there's many faces of abuse.

So there you have it, my three cents worth and you can take it to the bank as I have more where that came from. *winks*

he he. Only a true dom would say "three cents"

[crazy_grrluk]

Thanks for that post. I'd say that your story is a good example of master behavior I was trying to identify. Was there any sign before this ordeal that should have tipped you off? I'm not saying if it should then, because it obviously didn't. But if you found the same kind of guy today, what could you do or ask for to make sure he isn't as abusive as that guy was? Can you think of anything?

There was no sign whatsoever to indicate anything was wrong. Not even my mentor at the time had any idea at all. Not until this guy went beserk... shrugs

I am more cautious now. I wait and watch for any little sign that might indicate a problem and i dont rush into anything.
I also ask sneeky questions only a true Dominant would know... a bit like an interview process but making it seem like a general conversation. like for example... explain the meaning behind the Dominant's Creed... do you live by old school or new BDSM. how many submissives have you had in the time that you have found yourself to be Dominant. what do you enjoy most about the lifestyle that sort of thing. I also have a habit of throwing a curve ball in when it is least expected LOL

[Tojo]

To be able to effectively listen to someone, in a non-judgemental way, you need to be free of distress yourself.

[Krechet]

We had a rapist coming once. Granted that I had to take the victims word for it, but it was someone I knew well and used my judgment and had him banned. Admittedly I could be wrong. I will not persecute if I don't have plenty of stuff to back it up with. I'd rather let people get away with it if I'm not sure. Rape is a quite obviously a not-ok act.

Tom, I would say you absolutely did the right thing here. I know that statistically speaking 98% of the time if someone says they were raped that means they REALLY WERE . It is very important to listen to this and to get these people help.

Someone mentioned being the person that can listen to the people that come to your parties. I would say That is a great idea. An even better one is to look at abuse outside of BDSM. You will find that BDSM and abuse are quite different. Abuse can take many different forms and at times is very subtle. I know that in another thread someone mentioned ignoring the sub as punishment and generally that was considered too cruel. Some would consider that as abuse by neglect outside of BDSM.

But then again, it is very hard to take care of everything. You can't screen everyone that comes to your events. What you can do though is be a resource to those that are there. Provide people with information on safe and healthy relationships, etc. This is a small thing but it's sometimes a first step to getting someone out of a place where they shouldn't be.

Lastly, the question of abuse resulting in pervyness. I don't buy that. I mean I can see how it could, but if you are liking being punished because you feel badly about yourself, maybe you should re-evaluate what you are doing first and sort things out. There's nothing wrong with being a survivor of abuse, but playing while feeling badly about oneself at least to me seems REALLY unsafe.

[PrincessTigerLily]

I was also in an abusive relationship previously. I'd like to first clarify that I don't think this is why I am submissive. I was into BDSM before this relationship. In fact it makes it hard for me at times to act out my fantasies because it can bring up memories of my abuse. Although I know my Dom is not like my ex, strange subtle cues can spark this in me.

As far as your dilemma is concerned, I think it would be really difficult to identify abuse as it is happening. But afterwards, as others have said, I think it would be beneficial to be approachable in case someone reaches out to you for help. I understand that it may be hard to decipher who is crying wolf and not but maybe its a risk to take. If there is someone being abused who reaches out to you, you can really make a difference. That first step is the hardest to overcome. What I'm trying to say is that if you have to sit through several "sob stories" but at some point come across someone who is in fact being abused that it would be worth it. I hope what I'm trying to say is clear...