Did the gods (god) create us?

[thir]

There is absolutely no evidence that gods exist. Therefor there can be no evidence that they made us, or the universe. There is ample evidence that the gods of humanity have been created in our image, rather than we in theirs.

A character in one of Terry Pratchet's novels say "I do not believe in the Gods. It only encourages them" :-)

In fact, belief in any kind of supernatural beings or events has no basis in reality. Every religion known to man has arisen from attempts to explain natural events in terms understandable to people. When you have no knowledge of electricity or weather patterns it's only natural to assume that lightning must originate from a very powerful being, a god if you will. Once you learn the true nature of lightning, though, the need for that god is gone. There's a reason people no longer worship the ancient gods of Rome, Greece, Egypt or Babylonia. Their existence is not necessary to explain the events they were invented to explain.

Certainly religion is also used to explain what happens around us - and so it does even in this day an age, though from another angle. Remember the discussion about why the Haiti earth quake happened?

But, absence of proof is not proof of absence. There is so much science does not know! If you only "believe" in what can be measured, you claim that science is capeable of measuring everything that exists, and as history shows, this is not true. With new technology new discoveries, all the time.

That leaves the last big mystery, death. What happens to us after death? Do we survive somehow? Where do we go? What will happen there? These are the primary questions which keep religion alive in the modern world.

This is a very good point. A lot of us are afraid of death, and I have noticed that villains in many stories and films are almost always afraid of death!
However, I personally think that people are also seeking answers about life, and how to live it.

The truth (as I see it) is that there are no gods. There are no miracles.

But there may well be things we do not know of yet, and which now seem miraculous because we cannot explain them.

Prayer does not work except possibly as a method of calming oneself down.

We do not know that. Mind and body are one.

There is no heaven or hell, no life after death. We are here for a brief time and then we are gone. The only thing passing down through time are our genes, through our children.

Actually, since we are all made of the same material as everything else, all that we physically are is forever circulating. Is is a fun thought, isn't it?

There is no wondrous reason for why we are here. The entire history of mankind is less than a hiccup in the history of the universe, and when we are gone there will be none who will know or care.

I think it is wondrous enough that we are here. Yes, seen from eternity we are less than a hiccup, but so is all other life. Efternity is made of hiccups, you might say ;-)
When we are gone, other life will be here, and that too will be wondrous. And maybe somebody will one day study us, as we study the dinosaurs.

That's life.

You mean, that is death? ;-)

Live it or get out of the way.

Out of who's way?
Why should another way of thinking be in the way? There is room for it all.

[Thorne]

Certainly religion is also used to explain what happens around us - and so it does even in this day an age, though from another angle. Remember the discussion about why the Haiti earth quake happened?

I don't remember the details, but I fail to see the point. Are you suggesting that the cause of the Haiti earthquake was anything but natural?

But, absence of proof is not proof of absence. There is so much science does not know!

As I've been saying all along! But absence of proof does not mean that you can fill in the blanks with whatever fancy comes to mind.

If you only "believe" in what can be measured, you claim that science is capeable of measuring everything that exists, and as history shows, this is not true. With new technology new discoveries, all the time.

Accepting what can be measured does not mean that only things which can be measured exist. Can one measure emotions? We can recognize them, understand what causes them, even control them to some degree. But we cannot measure them. And yes, with new technology will come new discoveries. And some of those discoveries may stand everything we think we know now on its head. But again, that does not give you the right to toss out any far-fetched notion and claim it is truth by divine writ.

This is a very good point. A lot of us are afraid of death, and I have noticed that villains in many stories and films are almost always afraid of death!

That's because the writers of those stories and films tend to believe in an afterlife in which there villains will be justly punished.

However, I personally think that people are also seeking answers about life, and how to live it.

Yes, they are. And that is what the religious stories are all about. Teaching tools to help people learn how to live. They are not, necessarily, historical documents, nor are they the inspired word of gods. They are stories, no more nor less.

But there may well be things we do not know of yet, and which now seem miraculous because we cannot explain them.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)

That doesn't necessarily mean miracles, just that we don't yet know. This is one big difference between science and religion. In science, "I don't know" is the starting point for many journeys of knowledge. In religion, "I don't know" is answered with, "God."

We do not know that. Mind and body are one.

There have been studies done with prayer. These studies have regularly shown that results of prayer are indistinguishable from random chance. However, in cases where people in hospitals were told that people were praying for them, they did statistically poorer than those who were not aware, or those who were not being prayed for.

Since our minds are functions of electrochemical processes within the body, yes, they are one. No metaphysical nonsense required.

Actually, since we are all made of the same material as everything else, all that we physically are is forever circulating. Is is a fun thought, isn't it?

It's even better than that! Every element in our bodies besides hydrogen was made within stars. We are made of star stuff!

When we are gone, other life will be here, and that too will be wondrous. And maybe somebody will one day study us, as we study the dinosaurs.

Well, when they get around to studying me I hope they find some very nasty surprises!

Why should another way of thinking be in the way? There is room for it all.

Those who would obstruct the advancement of knowledge, who would try to control us with their imaginary gods, need to get out of the way.

"Belief gets in the way of learning." - Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

[leo9]

A lot of us are afraid of death, and I have noticed that villains in many stories and films are almost always afraid of death!

That's because the writers of those stories and films tend to believe in an afterlife in which there villains will be justly punished.

Actually no, it's a trope that most often occurs in books with an agnostic or atheistic background, and what drives the thanatophobe to search for immortality at any cost is usually not the fear of damnation but the fear of nothing - the fear that his (it's usually a he) supremely valuable ego will cease to exist. It's a subject worthy of study by any literature student in search of a thesis topic.

The only exception I know of is Huxley's "After Many A Summer," which is a literary exploration of the ways people handle the fear of death. The major thanatophobe there is driven by a simplistic fear of hellfire (to the point where he considers an immortality treatment even after learning that the price is to regress to an animal existence), but the author himself clearly pities the character for being a prey to such superstition: if Huxley believed in the survival of the soul, he inclined to a concept of merging with the All, not individual judgement.

[thir]

Quote:
Originally Posted by thir View Post
Certainly religion is also used to explain what happens around us - and so it does even in this day an age, though from another angle. Remember the discussion about why the Haiti earth quake happened?

T: I don't remember the details, but I fail to see the point. Are you suggesting that the cause of the Haiti earthquake was anything but natural?

Not to me, but to some people it is god's punishment, and they anguish about what they have done wrong.

Quote:
But, absence of proof is not proof of absence. There is so much science does not know!

T:As I've been saying all along! But absence of proof does not mean that you can fill in the blanks with whatever fancy comes to mind.

True. But is also means that you cannot off-hand reject what you cannot prove right now.
In earlier times, reports of meteorites were rejected, because everybody knew that rocks do not fall out of the sky.

Quote:
If you only "believe" in what can be measured, you claim that science is capeable of measuring everything that exists, and as history shows, this is not true. With new technology new discoveries, all the time.

T:Accepting what can be measured does not mean that only things which can be measured exist. Can one measure emotions? We can recognize them, understand what causes them, even control them to some degree. But we cannot measure them. And yes, with new technology will come new discoveries. And some of those discoveries may stand everything we think we know now on its head. But again, that does not give you the right to toss out any far-fetched notion and claim it is truth by divine writ.

I am not talking about divine writ, but of what people may report that they experience, see, hear - whatever.
For example near death or death experiences. If science 'knows' that what people say cannot be true, then it is rejected, no matter what.

Quote:
However, I personally think that people are also seeking answers about life, and how to live it.

T:Yes, they are. And that is what the religious stories are all about. Teaching tools to help people learn how to live. They are not, necessarily, historical documents, nor are they the inspired word of gods. They are stories, no more nor less.

But some might be myth or legend, which I personally think comes from somewhere - even if it can be almost impossible to know what it was from the start.
Maybe some religious texts are the same, a version of something that happened, seen in a religious light.

Quote:
But there may well be things we do not know of yet, and which now seem miraculous because we cannot explain them.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)

That doesn't necessarily mean miracles, just that we don't yet know. This is one big difference between science and religion. In science, "I don't know" is the starting point for many journeys of knowledge. In religion, "I don't know" is answered with, "God."

Optimally, yes. But there is dogma in science as well. And sometimes who says something is more important than what is said.

How do you distinguish between 'miracles' and 'do not know yet'?

Quote:
Actually, since we are all made of the same material as everything else, all that we physically are is forever circulating. Is is a fun thought, isn't it?

T:It's even better than that! Every element in our bodies besides hydrogen was made within stars. We are made of star stuff!

We are indeed!

Quote:
When we are gone, other life will be here, and that too will be wondrous. And maybe somebody will one day study us, as we study the dinosaurs.
Well, when they get around to studying me I hope they find some very nasty surprises!

You would ;-)

Quote:
Why should another way of thinking be in the way? There is room for it all.
T:Those who would obstruct the advancement of knowledge, who would try to control us with their imaginary gods, need to get out of the way.

This is true. But as long as each person keep their beliefs as something individual and do not try to invade others with it, it does not matter.

[Thorne]

Not to me, but to some people it is god's punishment, and they anguish about what they have done wrong.

Part of the reason for that is that they have been raised to believe that anything bad that happens to them is punishment from God. And to be honest, for some people that concept is far more comfortable than the idea that there is no reason for some things. Some things just happen.

True. But is also means that you cannot off-hand reject what you cannot prove right now.

Agreed. And there are scientists who are studying supernatural and paranormal claims. They have yet to find anything verifiable, however. If they ever do then we may have to change our ideas. I'm not holding my breath, though.

In earlier times, reports of meteorites were rejected, because everybody knew that rocks do not fall out of the sky.

"The Lord cast down great stones from heaven upon them" - Joshua 10:11
Apparently the ancient Jews knew that rocks could fall from the sky. So did the ancient Greeks. They reasoned that the rocks were actually from the ground and had been picked up by winds, but they did know they fell from the sky. While it is true that there was a period during the 18th century when some scientists stated categorically that stones could not fall from the sky, it was hardly a universal belief. After all, stones were seen to fall.

I am not talking about divine writ, but of what people may report that they experience, see, hear - whatever.

Eye-witness testimony has been shown to be one of the least reliable methods of establishing the truth. People's perceptions are sometimes altered by their experiences, beliefs or even wishful thinking.

For example near death or death experiences. If science 'knows' that what people say cannot be true, then it is rejected, no matter what.

Near death experiences have been studied, and found to be not credible. It seems, IIRC, that peoples experiences tend to follow cultural and religious lines. You don't find devout Catholics experiencing the Hindu version of heave, for example. And if I'm not mistaken, scientists have been able to duplicate some of these experiences by stimulating various parts of the brain.

But some might be myth or legend, which I personally think comes from somewhere - even if it can be almost impossible to know what it was from the start.

Maybe some religious texts are the same, a version of something that happened, seen in a religious light.

Of course. I'm not about to claim that these stories are made up out of thin air. There is a basis for them. The universal flood stories, for example, are most probably based upon actual floods which caused tremendous amounts of damage. And in an age when most people rarely went further than a few miles from home, these floods would seem to have wiped out the world.

Optimally, yes. But there is dogma in science as well. And sometimes who says something is more important than what is said.

True again. There are those who have established themselves through their work as being experts. If you're going to joust against those windmills you have to make sure you have proof. And science works slowly sometimes. Many discoveries, especially those which overturn established theories, have the same problems as religions: those making extraordinary claims must provide extraordinary evidence.

How do you distinguish between 'miracles' and 'do not know yet'?

The first thing you have to do is find a real miracle. Then you study it, dissect it, learn about it. That will usually solve the problem.

Can you show me a miracle that hasn't been explained?

But as long as each person keep their beliefs as something individual and do not try to invade others with it, it does not matter.

I've said exactly the same thing. But look around you. Here in the US, for example, our money says, "In God We Trust". Our Pledge of Allegiance states, "One nation under God." Religious groups are continuously attempting to change the laws which separate Church and State. These are not the actions of people keeping their beliefs to themselves.