Balancing Faith and BDSM

[MissElizabeth87]

So, from reading other posts, I've seen that most people on here are agnostic or atheist, but I thought I might try to get an answer about this anyways. I am a Christian and have been all my life. Now, don't get some image of some fanatic cramming the bible down your throat... I have always believed that my faith is something I should LIVE out, and if you choose not to agree with me, that is your own choice. That said... I am having trouble with balancing the lifestyle and my beliefs. I have only really been a part of this for a couple of months, and my faith is still the same. I just feel really... ashamed, I guess, when I go to church or read my bible, knowing what I have just done the night before...because of the submissive woman thing in the bible. I was wondering if anyone else had experience dealing with this?

Also... I am not *legally* married, and while I realize the bible condemns sex outside of marriage, marriage is described as a commitment before God that is consumated. My relationship does exactly that. My parents say it is a stretch but I was informed by pastors that we do biblically qualify as married, so please do not get into that.

[fetishdj]

Its hard to balance the two. I personally have a live and let live attitude to religion. I think it can be a source of strength to many (and there are many on here who are Christian, I just think the aetheists shout louder ). However, your feelings of shame annoy me on your behalf because I hate it when religion inspires negative feelings and so much of it seems to be aimed at doing so.

I know of at least one Christian who calls themselves a strict Christian and yet is in a similar position to you. She has gone through the Bible and the articles of faith and basically taken out what she does not like and kept what she does and has managed through this to incorporate faith into her lifestyle. Of course, many traditionalists see this as heresy and it may not be for you. However, I do suggest you spend time going through the bible objectively and consider the passages that are relevant to your situation and analyze them. There are many misconceptions about how parts of the bible apply to Christian doctrine. For example, the tale of the sin of Onan (taken by Christians as a warning against homosexuality and/or masturbation because 'spilling his seed on the ground' is wrong) is actually a story about a man who refuses to impregnate his dead brother's wife (as Jewish law said he had to in order to maintain the marriage contract with her parents). The problem with scripture is that it can be interpreted different ways depending on which translations you read but most Christians seem to stick to one interpretation dogmatically. Another, less relevant, example is the 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' line which is considered by some scholars to be a mistaken translation of the term 'poisoner'. As 'witches' of the period this was translated were often herbalists and most herbs are poisonous if given in large enough doses you can see where the confusion lies.

From the sounds of it you have an understanding church which is quite liberal compared to some American denominations I have witnessed. I know of at least one denomination (which I would not name even if I knew it... this was based on a sermon witnessed at a friend's wedding) which considers any marriage not performed in church as not valid and sinful. I feel you have a lot of soul searching to go through and I wish you luck with it.

[Alex Bragi]

So, from reading other posts, I've seen that most people on here are agnostic or atheist...

Actually, there are many Christians here, MissElizabeth--too many to name really. Just like you, they're not "fanatic cramming the bible down your throat" variety--they're good people who are respectful of other's beliefs/non-beliefs. If you read through a few of the threads in this sub-forum, and others too, you'll find them.

Also, you may find this thread interesting Can Religion and BDSM Interests Co-exist?

[Warbaby1943]

Actually, there are many Christians here, MissElizabeth--too many to name really. Just like you, they're not "fanatic cramming the bible down your throat" variety--they're good people who are respectful of other's beliefs/non-beliefs. If you read through a few of the threads in this sub-forum, and others too, you'll find them.

Also, you may find this thread interesting Can Religion and BDSM Interests Co-exist?

Thanks Alex. I'm glad you said it cause I was about to.

[ashtonDs]

Originally posted by MissElizabeth87:
I've seen that most people on here are agnostic or atheist

Not everyone, nor are all religious people here Christian, I'm not. But I attend services and sing in the choir.

I don't have so much of a problem with faith and bdsm because it's pretty much like everything else in life, you have people at the extremes and everywhere in between. We don't all have to agree 100% with each other. There are plenty of folks here in committed relationships and those who have several different partners. You cannot condemn a whole way of life because of what some people do. If you did wouldn't you have to condemn Christianity for the actions of Jimmy Swaggart and/or Pat Hagerty?

Personally, I don't think you have anything to worry about. So what if you two like sex a little rough (or however you do it)? If what you do the night before church is between two committed people, and is safe and consensual, you don't have anything to be ashamed about.

In the end the decision is yours, together with your partner.

[TomOfSweden]

Ok, MissElisabeth. Even though I'm an atheist I'm pretty well read on the Bible and Biblical history. You don't seem to be the liberal kind of Christian, (when it comes to Biblical interpretation) so I'll skip the common solutions.

The Bible is pretty clear on that adultery is wrong. It's in the commandments!!! So you can't really play it down or pretend like its all right with God anyway. But then again... the Bible is pretty hazy on what the consequences are. Maybe the gains out-weigh the afterlife price? Who knows. Nobody beside the pope, (if your Catholic) can really say.

I can think of two approaches.

A) Technical Biblical weaselling.

Since this is the line your pastors favour I guess it is the preferred method for your church.

Repenting
There's a useful joke. "I used to ask God for a bicycle, then I realized he doesn't work that way. So I stole one and asked for forgiveness."

Have the hanky panky, but be repentant about it later. It's okay. Even God repents (see the Noah's Ark story). It'll work. You know God will forgive your sins, he does it all the time. And really mean it each time you repent.

Inspiration from Lot
Have your boyfriend, (technical husband) pretend that he's going after a close friend of yours, and have him tell you that the only way to protect her is if you offer yourself to the raging hordes (which is him). God will forgive you. There doesn't seem to be a limit on how often you can do this.

B) Embrace the fact that this isn't a religious thing at all.

Could it be that you love the feeling of denying yourself sexual pleasure? Does it make you...

1) ...even hornier?
2) ...you don't need to take risks?

Just own that feeling. Own your own motivations for this dilemma. Denying yourself pleasure is also masochism. Just because body parts aren't being inserted doesn't mean sex isn't going on. God, (or rather your own projection of an authority figure) is your sexual partner here.

...and just enjoy it. If you have faith in God, as in really believe in him, you really do need to roll with it or be crushed by your own conscience. Don't be your own worst enemy.

[fetishdj]

Interesting point but the bible does not (as far as I am aware) actually state what marriage is - i.e.what the ceremony should be, where it has to be, who can do it and so on. All we have is the intepretation of those who read the bible and interpret the scripture.

The only thing that determines what needs to be in a marriage is the law and while these differ in some fine details (i.e the English law states that a wedding can only take place in a registered building by a registrar and the building must be a complete building with walls and a roof while the American law is completely different and allows outdoor wedding) most of them say that all you really need to have in a ceremony are the bits where the registrar asks if any one objects and the 'do you' bits. Everything else is additional - put there for the benefit of those getting married or, if a religious wedding, the requirements of the religion.

It was also common in many periods of history for a couple who could not afford to move out of their parent's homes to get engaged but have a long engagement until they could afford to get married and move out. During this time they would live for all intents and purposes as a married couple, including sex. The betrothal agreement was taken as a binding contract and they had to remain faithful to each other as if they were married.

So, by not getting married in a church or even not getting married at all but merely making a lifelong and personal committment you are in fact as married in the eyes of god even if the law may have things to say about it (but that only affects your legal name, tax status, divorce rights... you know, unimportant things like that )

Just some interesting facts I thought may have some bearing...

[TomOfSweden]

There's another technicality you can exploit. Due to a weird political conflict between early Catholics and Marcionites, (which was a bigger Christian sect at the time) the Catholic church embraced the old testament also as the word of God. It was only a means to distance themselves from Marcionites but this has carried over to all modern Christian sects today. Probably yours to.

This means that you can also use those laws. It states that Jews are allowed to get a divorce, and since Christianity is technically a Jewish sect, includes you. The game rules state that its the husband that must initiate it, though. All it needs is a letter with the words on, so its easy enough to pull off. And no forgiveness by God is necessary since its no sin.

[AdrianaAurora]

I think I am a little confused. I was raised Catholic, but had left disgusted a few years ago and have "switched" to Unitarian Universalism (Christian branch). So as someone who has had her fair share of the Bible study, my question is - where in the Bible did you read that BDSM is a sin? Or for that matter that "sex is bad"? Thats just something dirty, evil, old priests shout to control their flock. The only thing Bible does say is that one shouldn't succumb to premarital sex and as you have already managed to "reconcile" that, whats the problem? BDSM sex is just sex. And as far as nonsexual aspect is concerned, well most Christians seem to believe that Bible is big on submissive women serving men (husbands) anyway.

[fetishdj]

I think part of the problem is that her situation is the reverse of that - submissive man and dominant woman... But even so, you are correct on all the rest of it.

[Thorne]

Part of the problem here, as I see it, is trying to reconcile religion not faith. It is very easy to reconcile one's faith with almost anything. Just believe it, deeply. But religion is another story. That is defined by others for you, and to follow that religion means following someone else's definitions of good and bad.

AdrianaAurora states that she was raised a Catholic, but switched. I know of at least three of my own relatives who switched from Catholicism to one Protestant sect or another. Why? Because they could no longer reconcile their faith with their religion. So they found a religion which was more in line with what they believed.

Let's face it. The leaders of the Catholic Church, for certain, picked out their belief system from among many different groups, choosing those which were most in line with their own faith, discarding others which they felt were heretical. All of the Protestant, as well as the different Catholic groups, split from Rome because of differences in interpretation and belief. They then set up there own iron-clad belief systems.

So, if your religion doesn't meet your own beliefs, your own faith, either find one that does, or design your own. Or do without church or religion altogether. Your faith is still there. It doesn't need a building or a preacher to make it valid.

[TomOfSweden]

Part of the problem here, as I see it, is trying to reconcile religion not faith. It is very easy to reconcile one's faith with almost anything. Just believe it, deeply. But religion is another story. That is defined by others for you, and to follow that religion means following someone else's definitions of good and bad.

AdrianaAurora states that she was raised a Catholic, but switched. I know of at least three of my own relatives who switched from Catholicism to one Protestant sect or another. Why? Because they could no longer reconcile their faith with their religion. So they found a religion which was more in line with what they believed.

Let's face it. The leaders of the Catholic Church, for certain, picked out their belief system from among many different groups, choosing those which were most in line with their own faith, discarding others which they felt were heretical. All of the Protestant, as well as the different Catholic groups, split from Rome because of differences in interpretation and belief. They then set up there own iron-clad belief systems.

So, if your religion doesn't meet your own beliefs, your own faith, either find one that does, or design your own. Or do without church or religion altogether. Your faith is still there. It doesn't need a building or a preacher to make it valid.

I just wanted to say that, this is brilliant. I couldn't have said it better, (or nicer). It's your life and Christianity has a personal God.

I found some more technical weaselling tips and tricks. When I say "technical weaselling" there's no judgement in it. What I mean is treating the Bible like a rulebook rather than a spiritual book which is meant to speak to your soul.

http://www.sexinchrist.com/
http://www.gracecentered.com/biblica...f_adultery.htm

[fetishdj]

I just wanted to say that, this is brilliant. I couldn't have said it better, (or nicer). It's your life and Christianity has a personal God.

I found some more technical weaselling tips and tricks. When I say "technical weaselling" there's no judgement in it. What I mean is treating the Bible like a rulebook rather than a spiritual book which is meant to speak to your soul.

http://www.sexinchrist.com/
http://www.gracecentered.com/biblica...f_adultery.htm

I would also like to give thanks to that particular post. It was what I was also trying to say but my intellectuality got in the way

[AdrianaAurora]

Part of the problem here, as I see it, is trying to reconcile religion not faith. It is very easy to reconcile one's faith with almost anything. Just believe it, deeply. But religion is another story. That is defined by others for you, and to follow that religion means following someone else's definitions of good and bad.

AdrianaAurora states that she was raised a Catholic, but switched. I know of at least three of my own relatives who switched from Catholicism to one Protestant sect or another. Why? Because they could no longer reconcile their faith with their religion. So they found a religion which was more in line with what they believed.

Let's face it. The leaders of the Catholic Church, for certain, picked out their belief system from among many different groups, choosing those which were most in line with their own faith, discarding others which they felt were heretical. All of the Protestant, as well as the different Catholic groups, split from Rome because of differences in interpretation and belief. They then set up there own iron-clad belief systems.

So, if your religion doesn't meet your own beliefs, your own faith, either find one that does, or design your own. Or do without church or religion altogether. Your faith is still there. It doesn't need a building or a preacher to make it valid.

I agree completely, there is a difference between faith and religion most people are blind to. I find it absurd when people tell me they are of so and so religion and then they casually break tenants of that religion. Its stupid how people try to force themselves into some artificial religious mold, and for what reason? Each and every one of those molds was created by men, men who don't know it any better than you, not God. I find it hilarious when in lack of a better argument, they come up with that trusted "its in the Bible". Uhmm, actually no! No one knows what was actually in the Bible. The book as we know it is a concoction, a product of the figment of politicians through the ages. The real, original Bible has been destroyed and what little has survived religious leaders systematically try to undermine because it doesn't suit their politics. Its so illogical and cruel to try to mold your faith to suit a particular religion. Your religion and faith should be a perfect fit. I didn't stop being Catholic, because I never was. I believe in a womans right to have an abortion, I believe in gay rights, I don't believe in bashing people, I condone contraception, I believe in forgiving and being nice to others, even those who are different, except forgiving pedophiles, I think its fundamentally wrong to undermine women and I think they make fine priests, and that there is nothing evil about sex...Many people share this beliefs and yet many of them consider themselves Catholics, despite the fact that every single one of this believes is diametrically opposite to official doctrine and strongly opposed by the wrinkly, old creeps. Its mind boggling how laconically they can do that, but ultimately you have to decide whats more important your faith or some religion. So I wrote down my beliefs and found the religion that I was.

MissElizabeth87, I hope you find the comfort that you are looking for. Good luck.

Adriana

[Kuskovian]

Basically Elizabeth it boils down to this:

Ultimately only you can decide what is right for you.

This naturally includes making "peace" with yourself and or your God as to your way of life.

[dave]

You are NOT alone here, MissElizabeth. I would love to talk to you sometime about having the same conflicts and how we might resolve them.
dave

[MissElizabeth87]

Thank you all for your input. You've helped me quite a bit.

[MissElizabeth87]

Oh, just to clarify something... I have never EVER been taught that sex is inherently "bad" or "evil". I guess church may have tried that, but I had very good parents who taught me that there is absolutely nothing bad about sex, that it is a gift from God to be enjoyed (but because of its binding nature, within marriage). I don't believe there is anything wrong with sex.

My questions came mainly from the fact that I top my guy, rather than submit to him.

I'll still have some more soul searching to do, but everyone has made some really helpful comments. I've always intellectually understood the difference between religion's rules and a relationship with a "personal God" (as TomofSweden stated)... but I guess I never really understood it in my heart until now.

[fetishdj]

Yep... the problem with religion (as opposed to faith) is that its dogmatic nature means that it takes many centuries to update with the times. The issue of female rights, for example, is something that they are slow to pick up on. I am actually surprised that the EU has not hit the Pope with an equal rights suit based on thier non equal opportunities employment policy

As for things being 'in the bible', I agree... there are a lot of things that are in there (and many which can be read in different ways to mean different things) but also many things claimed to be in there are not. Some Christians just need to actually read the damn thing rather than just assuming stuff that is in there. However, Adriana, the Catholics have an advantage on this than many other denominations. Most of the Catholic rules that are not in the bible are in fact papal bulls. Since the concept of the pope being the representative of god on earth is set by biblical precedent, if he makes a bull then it is god's law. Even if it contradicts a previous one. So, this is how they get away with saying things that are god's will that aren't in the bible

I do know that a lot of catholics left the church in disgust following the rulings of Vatican II which maintained the rule against contraception. I beleive the rule was originally in place because before the existence of the pill and reliable barrier methods the only 'contraception' available to women were in fact no more than early stage abortificeants - the herbal equivilent of the morning after pill. If you are being literal about the 'thou shalt not kill' rule then use of an abortificeant is murder therefore all contraception is murder. They just did not update this to take into account the fact that with modern contraception you don't get pregnant in the first place therefore there is no 'loss of life'.

[AdrianaAurora]

I am actually surprised that the EU has not hit the Pope with an equal rights suit based on thier non equal opportunities employment policy

You are too funny, this cracked me up.

And if they ever decided to actually do that, I would volunteer my services to the prosecution, .
(I dont mind Catholics, they are entitled to their religious beliefs as anyone else, but Ratzinger gives me the creeps. An evil person like that hasn't been pope since the time of Alexander Borgia, so yes I would take great pleasure in that.)

My personal stand is that as long as you don't try to force your believes on others and make it into a law, anyone can believe whatever they want. No religion teaches a man to be bad or disrespectful to others, its the people who read that into the beautiful scriptures that worry me. I enjoy a good debate, thats how we learn and grow, its when someone starts selling his believes for the absolute, faxed to him by God, truth that my alarm bells go on. The only thing that scares me in life is "mob mentality" and nothing incites it more than religious crap.

[AdrianaAurora]

Oh, just to clarify something... I have never EVER been taught that sex is inherently "bad" or "evil". I guess church may have tried that, but I had very good parents who taught me that there is absolutely nothing bad about sex, that it is a gift from God to be enjoyed (but because of its binding nature, within marriage). I don't believe there is anything wrong with sex.

My questions came mainly from the fact that I top my guy, rather than submit to him.

I'll still have some more soul searching to do, but everyone has made some really helpful comments. I've always intellectually understood the difference between religion's rules and a relationship with a "personal God" (as TomofSweden stated)... but I guess I never really understood it in my heart until now.

I think we all have that kind of struggle, submissives and Dommes. For me it was, how do I reconcile being a feminist and my need for submission. Maybe its a women thing, we are inherently thought to feel guilty, either for being "weak" or for being "strong". Anyway, I realized there was nothing to reconcile. People's personalities are not linear creations, we are complex, illogical creators. Both of these traits are a part of me, and I am just me. As long as you stay true to yourself, and this is who you are, embrace it.

And btw, sex is more fun when its a little "bad", .

[TomOfSweden]

I think we all have that kind of struggle, submissives and Dommes. For me it was, how do I reconcile being a feminist and my need for submission. Maybe its a women thing, we are inherently thought to feel guilty, either for being "weak" or for being "strong". Anyway, I realized there was nothing to reconcile. People's personalities are not linear creations, we are complex, illogical creators. Both of these traits are a part of me, and I am just me. As long as you stay true to yourself, and this is who you are, embrace it.

And btw, sex is more fun when its a little "bad", .

I'd like to add, that this isn't a specifically religious/Christian problem. We all have rules and "dogmas" imposed on us from our culture. Most of them are actually helpful, (like being polite rather than rude, or giving your set to elderly). We all have to do soul searching and figure out what is right for us in our heart.

I had my own demons to combat, but from the feminist direction. I was living with feminist dogmas where submission of women to men was inherently evil. I've got nothing against feminism. It was just that it has coloured Swedish culture pretty strongly.

We all have our internal battles to fight. I think that as long as you go to yourself instead of going to any external person, (priest, father, mother, boss, golf partner, husband, philosopher, scientist, etc) will only end well no matter the outcome. Only the road will differ. Letting other people tell you what is right for you obviously won't work. They aren't you. But that doesn't mean that their words aren't valuable. That priest you mentioned might say tonnes of great and wise things, but you have to decide which of them apply to your specific situation.

Every nugget of wisdom always has a specific scenario in mind when formulated. That is true of the Bible and its true of everything ever said. And few people fit that scenario perfectly. Maybe a little bit, but not perfectly.

[AdrianaAurora]

I had my own demons to combat, but from the feminist direction. I was living with feminist dogmas where submission of women to men was inherently evil. I've got nothing against feminism. It was just that it has coloured Swedish culture pretty strongly.

Personally I too have a problem with women (who not unlike religious leaders) have distorted feminism to the point of such absurdity.

To me feminism isn't about belitteling men, but empowering women.

[MissElizabeth87]

And btw, sex is more fun when its a little "bad", .

Yes it most definitely is... haha.


I don't get where people decided Christianity was all about rules anyways. I mean... if you read the parts of the NT where Jesus was actually ALIVE, He seemed pretty anti-rule to me. Seems like the whole book of rules deal came from a bunch of people after He was up in heaven, claiming to know His will.

And I totally agree that people should actually read the bible. I got to take classes these past couple of years in school that required in depth reading and outlining of the whole dang thing. I don't claim to know even a lot about the book, but I have at least read it.

[fetishdj]

It occurs to me that the problems here are not with specific groups or beliefs but rather with extremes. Those people on the fringes of particular society who beleive in something to the exclusion of all else. It applies to religion, feminism, racism and even BDSM.

Getting off topic with this a little but here is an example. Many years ago, Micheal Moorcock (British fantasy author) was asked to speak at a feminist rally by the organisers. He was booed off the stage because he was a man. This is an author who beleives strongly in women's rights, supports the cause of equality and was one of the first male fantasy authors to put strong and beleivable female characters into his fiction. The question you have to ask there is 'what purpose did those women achieve by potentially alienating a staunch ally from 'the other side'.

I suppose the lesson here is that extremes are where the problems lie and, quite often, these are the most vocal. This means that an awful lot of people see only the extremes. How many people do you think beleive that all Christians are fundametalist anti-evolutionists, that all muslims are terrorists, that all feminists are militant man haters or that all BDSM lifestylers want to lock their daughter in a basement for 20 years? These are clearly ludicrous and yet I have known people who beleive them.

We are influenced by our culture, by the memeplexes that we catch virally as we grow up. Everything we see, learn, read, do builds into a set of values - a memeplex. Religions are very successful memes and they can have a quite strong grip on us. The trick is to analyse everything you think you know and be careful not to fall into dogmatic thought.

[MissElizabeth87]

It occurs to me that the problems here are not with specific groups or beliefs but rather with extremes.

How many people do you think beleive that all Christians are fundametalist anti-evolutionists, that all muslims are terrorists, that all feminists are militant man haters or that all BDSM lifestylers want to lock their daughter in a basement for 20 years?

This is very true. I have met many people in my lifetime (which is definitely not that long) who assume that because I am a Christian I'm going to cram my beliefs down their throat... and very few of my outside friends and family know that I am involved in this sort of lifestyle, because I know what sort of images and assumptions it will bring up in their minds.

It is very easy to look on from the outside of something and assume the the loud, public ones speak for the whole group.

[moral-man]

So, from reading other posts, I've seen that most people on here are agnostic or atheist, but I thought I might try to get an answer about this anyways. I am a Christian and have been all my life. Now, don't get some image of some fanatic cramming the bible down your throat... I have always believed that my faith is something I should LIVE out, and if you choose not to agree with me, that is your own choice. That said... I am having trouble with balancing the lifestyle and my beliefs. I have only really been a part of this for a couple of months, and my faith is still the same. I just feel really... ashamed, I guess, when I go to church or read my bible, knowing what I have just done the night before...because of the submissive woman thing in the bible. I was wondering if anyone else had experience dealing with this?

Also... I am not *legally* married, and while I realize the bible condemns sex outside of marriage, marriage is described as a commitment before God that is consumated. My relationship does exactly that. My parents say it is a stretch but I was informed by pastors that we do biblically qualify as married, so please do not get into that.

As far as I'm concerned, The Bible doesn't condemn bdsm or sex before marriage anymore than it does men with crushed testicles entering synagogues. What it clearly does condemn though is the committing of actions that you from your own conscience know to be immoral.

I think the skill one needs to balance a christian life and bdsm is to objectively look at your actions and think for yourself 'Is what I am doing done with respect to others and is what I am doing done with respect to myself'. As long as your desires don't cause you to inflict psychological or spiritual damage to other people or yourself, no-one should be entitled to tell you that you are a sinner.