Does the content of my stories disturb people in the BDSM scene?

[Razor7826]

Hello. I don't post much in these forums outside of The Writer's Block, but there's a question that's been nagging on my mind recently.

I understand that a lot of aspects of BDSM life and erotica are found to be disturbing by the general population, but for those in that actively participate in the scene, what do you find as going too far with regards to erotic fiction?

The reason I ask this is because the content of my stories veers far into the dark side; not only do the woman always end up raped in some form, but they most certainly do not end up liking it in the end. In fact, most of the stories go a step further and finish with a completely hopeless ending, where the female protagonist has to cope with knowing that the rest of her life will be one of sexual servitude. My sex scenes are often brief, and not explicitly violent (no gore or snuff and the such), as I'm more interested in the emotional impact of traumatic events-- an 'emotional sadist' is the proper term, I guess.

I'm a nice guy, really, but I still don't think I've come to terms with these sick fantasies that I have. I'd never, ever, ever use violence against another human being, but in terms of my sex fantasies-- anything goes.

So, my question is, does the content of my stories disturb and offend people, even in the BDSM scene? Especially women-- I understand that forced fantasies are common, but does the hopelessness of my stories go too far?

P.S. I understand this might not be considered the precise sub-forum, as it focuses on the erotic literature, but I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of the wider forum community.

[Ozme52]

I wouldn't worry about it.

If someone doesn't like your style or story content, they need not read another one.

Except for maybe Alex, (the 'protagonist' in Clockwork Orange), no one I know of is actually forced to logon on and read any of the stories to be found in the library.

[chalsia]

reading your post rang a chord with me. In recent weeks i have wondered about myself being drawn to the more extreme literature. i mean what does that say about me? am i a masochist that craves such extreme treatment from someone, do i crave to be in pain or abused or ignored? Do i really want to be treated like a thing, like an object? In my heart i know i'm a big wuss and could never be hurt like that, and to be humiliated and treated like an object, i think in the end it would break my heart. so that leaves the second option, am i really that shallow that i find joy and arousal from someone else's misfortune, from someone else's pain and humiliation. I mean why else would i read those stories, fabricated them into my own fantasies and find arousal in them. Why would i think of those stories and masturbate to them? would i ever want anyone to be hurt like that, treated like that and truly hate being treated like that.. Never .. never .. never.. would i ever want to be that girl.. i'm not sure. Do i find arousal and excitement in reading them?.. yes yes yes.. very much so. So i'm very grateful for your stories. please do not stop writing them. some of us love them, for better or worse we like those stories. and those who do not appreciate them.. well there is always the little X in the corner.

[Razor7826]

But even among people that don't particularly like my story content, am I still considered a freak as far as the BDSM community is concerned?

And are these the types of stories that only appeal to men (or lesbian women)?

[marci]

Razor,

I enjoy stories like yours, but only in my fantasies. In real life, I would be terrified of something like that happening to me. Continue to write whatever is in your head.

[pips1520]

Your stories do not freak people out - there are many subs who would be haapy to be treated in such a way as part of a fantasy, but nothing else

[SilvieA]

Lol, well it is a bit depressing. But as long as you don't go around raping people in real life I'm sure that you're not 'a freak' as far as the BDSM scene is concerned.
I wouldn't worry too much if I were you... of course, seriously, don't do anything like that in real life outside of a scene.

[MacGuffin]

I have not read any of your stories myself and, as Ozme rightly points out, if anybody don't like it they don't have to read it. Personally speaking. instead of arousing my sexual interest rape stories just make me want to kick the shit of the rapist.

However, given that bdsm is based on consensual relationships, I wonder whether stories about rape and forced sexual slavery should be considered bdsm or horror stories.

[Razor7826]

Thank you so much, Chalsia-- your words make me a feel a lot better about my fantasies.

I think the appeal comes from the emotional responses of the characters. Even if the emotions and tortures themselves are revolting, the strength of the emotions is where the appeal lies. There's something absolutely captivating about people dealing with fiendish adversity.

Once again, thanks. It makes me feel good to know that my stories bring pleasure to women. How can a man not be happy to know he's pleasing women? =)

[sisterhoney61 {RW}]

No, they don't freak me out, because I have fantasies like that all the time. I write erotica with those exact themes as well and I read a lot of erotica with those themes. Just because you write or read something doesn't mean that you want it to really happen. This erotica is fiction and fantasy. Not real life. So please keep posting your stories. As others here have said, if someone doesn't enjoy them, they don't have to read them. But there are others here who do. One thing I have learned from years of writing: never censor yourself, because when you do your writing suffers and suffers badly. So silence that internal critic and keep writing!

[cadence]

For many years I had the same fantasy of being abducted and forced into a life of sexual servitude. It was my own story created in my mind.
My fantasy would never side with me, it was always filled with a lot of pain, resistance and isolation.
But it was mine and I liked it.
I don't think I would enjoy going through the same ordeal in real life, but I throughly enjoyed thinking about it.
I enjoy reading those stories as well.
I think we all like to indulge our deeper fantasies, but in reality we cannot really live them, so we rely on our thoughts, and the thoughts of others who can provide them through stories.

[Bellicosa]

I enjoy reading non-consensual type stories a lot more than those stories of "well, he was raping her, but then she decided she really liked it five minutes in." It's not that those stories can't be good too, but...man, it's a fantasy. My fantasy doesn't have to be PC. BDSM is, for most people, about dominance and submission, and rape is the ultimate way to act that out. Of course it's a terrible thing in real life, and of course I wouldn't want to be raped. But I also probably wouldn't really enjoy killing orcs with a sword, and I sure do like me some Lord of the Rings.

Now, some stories do go a bit far, I think, in terms of the absolute degradation of women. And let's not even get into some of the racist crap. But these are rare, and the common thread is that they are badly written. As long as the writing is good, it is still a bit of art like any story, playing off of human emotions. I've had forced sex fantasies since I was 12 years old; if that doesn't make me a sick human being than it doesn't make you one either.

[Razor7826]

Now, some stories do go a bit far, I think, in terms of the absolute degradation of women.

But what constitutes going too far? My 'A Tape' series (the final part (4) of which should be getting posted any day now) is pretty evil in terms of what the mother and daughter have to go through. And then there's things like my "Sister of Two" story in my Bad End series, where part of the emotional hook is that she's fighting for money to help her younger siblings but fails. So, not only do my stories focus on the emotions of the slave themselves, but also in their family members dealing with the loss. Does anyone think that bringing up the loss a parent's pain about the loss of their daughter into slavery is going too far? Or, is it just senseless depictions of violence that upset you?

Please, I'm very curious in understanding where people draw the line, and what people like about stories that focus on emotional trauma and completely hopeless endings.

(And, it isn't just bad endings for women that I'm interested in. I have some subby tendencies in me, as well, that I might be exploring in some future stories.)

[damyanti]

But what constitutes going too far?

Please, I'm very curious in understanding where people draw the line, and what people like about stories that focus on emotional trauma and completely hopeless endings.

What constitutes going too far...for me...are snuff and human chattel stories and extreme of the extreme mutilation and torture stories (think medieval "witch" torture stories). Those I cant stomach at all.

With everything else it depends on how well it is written. And not all serve the same purpose. Some I read from purely artistic point of view...some are very life like and play out what I would want done to me...some are completely unrealistic, but they still turn me on...some, I don't mind, but they do absolutely nothing for me...some make me go "yuck" or "ouch", but whatever turns you on. Point is...as long as you draw the distinct line between fantasy and reality you are good, all is good...even shrinks always say that to fantasize is a healthy outlet...90% of what I read I wouldn't want, or am too much of a wuss to ever agree, to have it done in reality (some are even hard limits).

Rape stories...for me personally fall into "I don't mind, but they do absolutely nothing for me" category;...being forced...being over powered...yes, oh yes, but rape stories...I do get the appeal intellectually, but they leave me bland. That however is just me, its one of the most common fantasies (or at least thats what they say in studies), and a lot of women get off on it.

I don't like depressing, hopeless realism when it comes to literature in general. I do appreciate it from intellectual point of view, but its not something I enjoy reading. If I want depressing, I watch the news...there (in reality) I can deal with it, but not in fiction. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the good chunk of my formative years was spent in country torn by war, in situations like that you are focused on survival, hopelessness is a luxury you cant afford when you have people depending on you. I do have my dark mood days, but giving up (in spirit) is a foreign concept to me.

[domtoteachyou]

as long as you put a disclamer at the beginnig that the story i fanticy then no one but the modrater has the right to stop it from posted. any story that is posted will get feedback some good some bad but it is only the opion of the reader. so go on and right your store, take all feedback with a grain of salt and go on with your life. it's not going to change the world. JIM

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

Code your stories accurately, insert the disclaimer and then its caveat emptor as far as I'm concerned.

I write relatively violent fantasy material that is based on humiliation, pain, and degradation. Its a fantasy. I know it and I know I'd never perpetuate any of that on anyone else except in a planned, consensual situation. I could care less what anyone else chooses to believe about me from what they choose to read. When I choose to worry, I worry that some emotionally challenged individual might use something I've written as a blueprint for his actions. Disclaimers aside, that still sticks in the back of my mind despite the extremely rare chance that could happen.

As to people being "squicked" by your writing, pay it no mind. Some will love it, some will hate it and some will be at every point in between.

Edited for pathetic phrasing and grammar.

[cadence]

Nothing really goes to far, in my opinion. It's the readers opinion of what goes too far.

As long as there are codes and a brief synopsis of the story, the reader can choose to read it or not.

I read the violent stories, the snuff stories and all of the others in between.
Some I like and some I don't, they are stories and only that. They are meant to be read and enjoyed.

Write what you like and what you enjoy, there will always be a reader who shares your tastes.

[littlepet]

I write stories involving forced slavery and things often considered abusive. I include a disclaimer that alerts people to the fact that I do NOT condone actual involuntary slavery situations or the ACTUAL abuse of any person.

At the same time though, I've actually had people from the Scene get very upset with me because my erotic fiction does not include "safewords" and hasn't been deemed "safe, sane, and consensual." Supposedly I'm approving of and endorsing horrific slavery, rape and abuse situations because I don't use safewords in my fiction.

That's because I'm trying to write something slightly more psychologically deep than someone else thinks is "appropriate" for me to write. Whether or not I succeed, I will not censor. (This is not to say I automatically think all situations in which safewords are used are in any way psychologically "shallow" only that that's not what I'm writing about, and it's not what I'm trying to say through my fiction.)

And so the short answer to your question is...no I'm not offended, carry on. But even if I were offended I am not the personal arbitor of what fiction should and should not be read by others. I do not believe in nanny states or nanny groups. And if someone says you are wrong or evil, just politely inform them that they may go read something else.

[Razor7826]

I write stories involving forced slavery and things often considered abusive. I include a disclaimer that alerts people to the fact that I do NOT condone actual involuntary slavery situations or the ACTUAL abuse of any person.

At the same time though, I've actually had people from the Scene get very upset with me because my erotic fiction does not include "safewords" and hasn't been deemed "safe, sane, and consensual." Supposedly I'm approving of and endorsing horrific slavery, rape and abuse situations because I don't use safewords in my fiction.

That's because I'm trying to write something slightly more psychologically deep than someone else thinks is "appropriate" for me to write. Whether or not I succeed, I will not censor. (This is not to say I automatically think all situations in which safewords are used are in any way psychologically "shallow" only that that's not what I'm writing about, and it's not what I'm trying to say through my fiction.)

And so the short answer to your question is...no I'm not offended, carry on. But even if I were offended I am not the personal arbitor of what fiction should and should not be read by others. I do not believe in nanny states or nanny groups. And if someone says you are wrong or evil, just politely inform them that they may go read something else.

How important do you (and others) feel it is to include a disclaimer? BDSM Library tends to be pretty rough, and appropriate story codes seem to keep negative comments away. Literotica, on the other hand... I see violent respones to NC stories constantly. Should I preface every single story that I have with 'Author does not condone the contents' warnings? Is there any sort of legal liability that warrants the disclaimer?

[littlepet]

Hey Razor,

Hmmm, on the disclaimer issue I do it mainly not to alienate readers and to avoid subjecting people to the kind of content that would deeply upset them. People always have a right to opt out of this sort of thing and you while you can stop reading, you can't really "unread" what you've already read.

Since there are so many people who have had genuine rape experiences, abuse experiences, and real personal trauma, I believe personally that it would be wrong for me to risk subjecting such a person to a possible reliving of said bad experiences through my fiction if it was not their choice to do so. (i.e. someone may have HAD a bad experience and still choose to read after the disclaimer and it may or may not be therapeutic for them to do so, but it's their choice to make, not mine.)

However, that is MY morality. I cannot dictate to others what they should or shouldn't do with regards to disclaimers. As for legal liability, I'm not sure, I think in most public fiction there is a disclaimer to the effect of: "all events, places, situations, people are fictitious...blah blah blah"

There will always be the chance that some psycho later is gonna come along and say: "Well I got this idea to be an evil serial rapist from this story I read." So it can serve as a "cover ya ass" type deal, though I hardly think anyone can really hold someone responsible for fiction inciting criminals. If that were true, movies like Saw and Hostel could not legally exist.

[denuseri]

We have an excellent writers block here in the forums. In fact compared to other sites i would have to say the bdsm.library is primaraly a compulation of literary endeavors. After all where elses can one endulge themselves with such a expansive variety of delisiously naughty things to read, in conjunction with excellent philosophical discourse on this way of life or it's many variational themes.


Actually in all seriousness, as a survivor of some of the things written in certian storys by a variety of authors, i have often found the contents to be tramatically disturbing, and yet i read prodigiously and dont hold anomosity towards the writer.

My reasons for putting myself through reading them i can assure you are not what many would think.

I have seen people get slammed for every topic or theme out there in thier reviews. Which i am sorry if your a frindge writter and your chosen content involves topics that are "on the edge" or over it by some individual or societal standards; some people are indeed going to make a fuss or "bitch" or be overly critical. Of course a disclamer warning them what they are about to read involves disturbing and or graphic depictions of rape, snuff, torture,incest, etc is applied to the header in addition to the application of the story codes function; have you not doubely warned any would be viewer?

I certianly don't read a story that has certian headers and or story codes myself.

Self imposed censorship is the only kind that should ever be allowed. Yet when does a story's review approach an attempt to censor the writter or attempt to pull in and sopphistically sway a higher authority to do so?

Look what happened to John Norman when he came out with the Chronicals of Gor series. This reativly "vanilla" series (by todays standards) between the lines was sending a very disturbing message to the feminist movement and a very bueatiful one to those interested in dominantion and submission. He was imediately branded a mysoginist.

For that matter look what they did to the Marquis De Sade.

Censorship, plain and simple. Personal opinion is one thing. Slandering someones work is another. Judicial prosicution by the State is even worse. People will slant things as they see fit to get thier point accross even in such small matters as critical story analysis.

I take it by your original post that you have recieved less than stellar story reviews and or other feedback on the content?

[littlepet]

Hey Seri (is it alright if I call you that?)

I personally find the Gor novels misogynistic as well. The ideas whether intentional or not which are repetitively hammered home is that somehow "all" women have some deep seated need to be slaves to men.

I also don't appreciate the assumptions that a slave is somehow now "public property" in the sense that she must act as if someone else's master has any level of authority or dominance over her. I think these books take something that can be beautiful when expressed between two individual people, and turn it into something ugly that I would want no part of if that was all there was.

Jon Jacobs and Polly Peachum have been pretty outspoken against the Gor novels and they live (I THINK they still do) in an absolute power exchange relationship in which she is the owned party.

I can respect people's right to follow a "Gorean Lifestyle" but I don't find the books particularly deep or beautiful. But that's me. I also can recognize that the Gorean Lifestyle may not be an exact replica of the books. But the books themselves weren't appealing to me.

[Razor7826]

I take it by your original post that you have recieved less than stellar story reviews and or other feedback on the content?[/COLOR][/B]

Actually, no, I've received generally good reviews and feedback for my work. However, reading through threads on this forum and and reviews on other literature sites (like the Literotica comments for NC stories), I began to wonder if my stories are particularly fucked up.

When I started writing BDSM stories less than two years ago, I thought my type of content was par for the course, but... now I'm not so sure. I was rereading this thread and began wondering if my emphasis on depressing/hopeless endings made people, even within this community, think I was a bit crazy or 'fucked up'. Most stories on the site either end with the 'victim' or submissive liking it in the end, or-- if it is a bad ending-- don't focus nearly as much on the emotional pain and horror of realizing that the protagonist is going to spend the rest of their life as a slave.

There's something captivating about emotional intensity, and utter hopelessness seems like a reliable way to elicit that type of response.

[denuseri]

Well the books are set in a "fantasy" and i repeat "fantasy" setting in which the laws of that society allow such "public form of slavery" condusive to that enviroment.

The ideas of female submission to male dominon are in fact originated from much earlier philosophers (and taken as truth for thousands of years in many cultures ) the Greeks and later Romans had no dificulty understanding it. Dr Langes presumptive (bio-ethical truths) congruent with the trancendentalist rejection of modernized society and the ills it imposes on humankind by the emasculation of our culture as discusses by Nietzshe and others is a social therory with a sound biological basis.

In regards to assumptions:

Many instances in his work explain in detail the fact that an owned slave is not to be "messed" with by those other than her Master, unles they want to face the consiquenses of dancing on his steel. (feel free to ask any internet "trolls" that have tried to with me if you come accross them LOL, you will see teeth marks all over them)

And here on earth so to speak, by "law" we are all free wemon, ` even if we choose to submit (a condition also described in detail in the books ,the section of which i am asuming you nor J &P didnt read) to our own personel masters, in which case no sence or assumption of public property is possible) even for the most Gorean of Goreans

Many miss the forest for the trees, especially Jacobs and Peachum.

Which is one of the reasons i am constantly involved in efforts to combat such slanders against the series and the true philosophy of D/s it represents which is actually about "Truth, Honor, and Love". Conseptual preceptions that are no different from those of "any" relationship vanilla or otherwise.

and yes Seri is actually my owners "pet" name for me its fine if you call me that, as most use some shortened variation.

I am not however going to debate gor here, on another persons thread as a side bar and would ask that such a discussion be taken up on any one of the numererous other threads i have posted on the subject, there is an excellent place in the religion and philosophy section that is more suited to the topicif you or anyone else for that matter is interested in continueing such an exchange of ideas. Here is a link to avoid any problems searching

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=17006

[littlepet]

Seri, okay, I replied to the other thread you started and will keep my comments there.

Oh, and I should point out here that when I said the "public property" thing, I'm talking about the deferential respect all the women show all the men.

[Bellicosa]

Sorry to be slow in getting back to you, Razor...

For me, just senseless violence can be a turnoff, yes. I'm not into snuff or extreme, gory torture. But the biggest problem I tend to have is with stories that portray women purely as objects, not as characters. Even if you're writing in first person from the tormentor's point of view, you can give the female characters humanity. Even a gagged person still acts like a person!

Basically, as long as your characters stay people, I'll forgive you an awful lot. It's when the sex partners start acting like the offspring of a porn star and a Real Doll that I get kind of offended and really turned off.

[littlepet]

Bellicosa,

This may be my issue with the Gor novels. I was trying to figure out why these novels irk me so much. I've WRITTEN noncon type stories. So I can understand the "fantasy" element for some people.

Besides the overarching gender-based issue of the books, I think it comes down to these women just being interchangeable pieces for someone's fantasy. Most of the efforts at female characterization of anything like human, fall very flat to me.

[denuseri]

Perhaps you should try reading the Gor books that were written from a first person female's perspective. Kajira or Gor and Dancer of Gor.

[Arria]

I agree with everything chelsia said and could not put it better.