Out of body religious experiences

[thrall]

It took you both long enough to hash this all out!!!!!..........lol


Please refer back to post #29 in this thread..............*wink*


hugs and kisses all round........

[TomOfSweden]

It took you both long enough to hash this all out!!!!!..........lol


Please refer back to post #29 in this thread..............*wink*


hugs and kisses all round........

Yeah, but don't you think there's a value in having that opinion challenged and tested? I for one have become all the wiser from this thread because of it.

[thrall]

Yeah, but don't you think there's a value in having that opinion challenged and tested? I for one have become all the wiser from this thread because of it.

Hi Tom

I agree with you that the ability to have a civilized debate is a wonderful thing. It is how humanity will survive. To be able to have a conversation about things controversial is essential to understanding the world at large.

But you must understand that on some subjects, there will be no resolution only personal opinion. Religion and or spirituality is one of those topics. People believe what they believe. There is no right or wrong answer, there is no one way, there is however……… only personal opinion.

Religion, spirituality, or lack there of, is a matter of what people believe. Right or wrong, evidence or lack there of, means nothing…………it is about personal beliefs.

Think about this……religion/spirituality are like emotions. There is no hard evidence of emotions, but they exist for each of us as individuals. I feel what I feel, but cannot feel what someone else is experiencing……….LOL

In debates such as this, where the conversation continues in a circle……the answer to the conundrum is…………to agree to disagree.

For what it's worth, Tom, I am a hard science girl myself and always have been. I want the answers in my hand with scientific evidence to back it all up.

That being said…….I still wrote Clusters and believe in it……….LOL……….

In debates such as this you must be able to state your own opinion and also be willing to except that there may be another opinion/explanation other that your own. You must be wiling to share you values and respect those of others.



Bravo to all those that have contributed in this thread….that is exactly what everyone is doing.


Thrall

[Guest 91108]

...
Think about this……religion/spirituality is like emotions. There is no hard evidence of emotions, but they exist for each of us as individuals. I feel what I feel, but cannot feel what someone else is experiencing……….LOL
...
Bravo to all those that have contributed in this thread….that is exactly what everyone is doing.


Thrall

Very nice Thrall .. thank you for inputting..

[TomOfSweden]

Hi Tom

I agree with you that the ability to have a civilized debate is a wonderful thing. It is how humanity will survive. To be able to have a conversation about things controversial is essential to understanding the world at large.

But you must understand that on some subjects, there will be no resolution only personal opinion. Religion and or spirituality is one of those topics. People believe what they believe. There is no right or wrong answer, there is no one way, there is however……… only personal opinion.

Religion, spirituality, or lack there of, is a matter of what people believe. Right or wrong, evidence or lack there of, means nothing…………it is about personal beliefs.

Think about this……religion/spirituality are like emotions. There is no hard evidence of emotions, but they exist for each of us as individuals. I feel what I feel, but cannot feel what someone else is experiencing……….LOL

In debates such as this, where the conversation continues in a circle……the answer to the conundrum is…………to agree to disagree.

For what it's worth, Tom, I am a hard science girl myself and always have been. I want the answers in my hand with scientific evidence to back it all up.

That being said…….I still wrote Clusters and believe in it……….LOL……….

In debates such as this you must be able to state your own opinion and also be willing to except that there may be another opinion/explanation other that your own. You must be wiling to share you values and respect those of others.



Bravo to all those that have contributed in this thread….that is exactly what everyone is doing.


Thrall

Unsurprisingly I don't agree. The problem with the religion debate is the lack of evidence for and against. But we have the wonderful tool of logic. We can work stuff out because of the lack of evidence. Argument from ignorance doesn't work. In other words saying that god cannot be disproven has never been a valid argument. It's simple to show it because it always opens the infinate. The burden of evidence is always on the one making the claim. Whether it is to one self or others is of no consequence. Ignoring this is simply trying hard to fool one self.

The discussion on religion has to be about which evidence there are and then evaluate them. There's no way we can reason about an entity we know nothing about.

These are all pretty basic things. So religious faith is not only about opinion, but structured reasoning and logic.

Another important factor in logic is to have a good enough set of evidence to draw conclusions from. If we have one piece of acceptable for us evidence of the existence of something supernatural. Let's say that my granny spoke to me. Let's for sake of argument assume that there was no way that could have happened naturaly. What assumptions can we draw from that? Rhabbi is a big fan of Ockams razor. So let's aply it. And this brings us nowhere closer to any particular faith. Even if we accept all the miracles in the Bible...they offer no support for the particular model of the universe the Bible presents. It could all be coinidence. It could all be missunderstanding.

Just like Mohammed in the Koran missunderstood Gabriel a few times and was corrected later. I actually love this feature in the Koran. That the later Suras over ride the earlier do to Gabriels corrections.

My point being that even if there was a god. Even if the miracles in the Bible where real. Even if god speaks to us. And even if god can effect our world. Even then, we know nothing about the nature of god. Just read Thomas Aquinas! He dedicated his entire life to reasoning about the nature of god. He thought he reached a conclusion with some creative thinking. But instead he managed to prove that we know nothing.

Thomas Aquinas is also a good example of how pressure of our peers can adulterate our thinking. The ancient Greeks hammered out all the nooks and crannies in logic. We have no reason to think the system of logic is at flaw. Aquinas was no idiot. He was without a doubt one of the absolut top geniuses that have ever lived. It took all the hundreds of years to Shoppenhaur before somebody joined Aquinas dots.

We are all logical beings. We all use logic to reason about everything around us. Conscious or not. And very often we are lazy and take short cuts. Nothing wrong with that. I always knock the cents off when counting money. It's more practical. But when logic is used to willfully fool oneself in such a big decision in life as with religious faith....it makes me sad...and frustrated.

It's not only down to faith and personal opinion. I firmly believe belief in the supernatural can be reasoned, discussed and I do believe shared conclusions can be reached. Being lazy and unconfrontational with one self is not a reason to cling to a faith.

[thrall]

The problem with the religion debate is the lack of evidence for and against. But we have the wonderful tool of logic.

Exactly Tom. You CAN NOT argue logic without evidence. Otherwise anything you may conclude, is determined with false logic either for or against. So, again.....the bottom line is only opinion.

And opinion is just that........an opinion. Opinion is neither right or wrong, it is only personal opinion.


QUOTE.....The discussion on religion has to be about which evidence there are and then evaluate them. There's no way we can reason about an entity we know nothing about.


Again ..my point exactly

There is no evidence.....for or against. So again, the bottom line is only opinion.



QUOTE.....These are all pretty basic things. So religious faith is not only about opinion, but structured reasoning and logic.



Your contradicting yourself here, Tom. How can you have structured reasoning and logic......without evidence?

The thing your not getting Tom, is that I'm playing Devils advocate for both sides.......LOL




I love you Tom..........kisses and hugs

Thrall

[TomOfSweden]

Exactly Tom. You CAN NOT argue logic without evidence. Otherwise anything you may conclude, is determined with false logic either for or against. So, again.....the bottom line is only opinion.

And opinion is just that........an opinion. Opinion is neither right or wrong, it is only personal opinion.


QUOTE.....The discussion on religion has to be about which evidence there are and then evaluate them. There's no way we can reason about an entity we know nothing about.


Again ..my point exactly

There is no evidence.....for or against. So again, the bottom line is only opinion.



QUOTE.....These are all pretty basic things. So religious faith is not only about opinion, but structured reasoning and logic.



Your contradicting yourself here, Tom. How can you have structured reasoning and logic......without evidence?

The thing your not getting Tom, is that I'm playing Devils advocate for both sides.......LOL




I love you Tom..........kisses and hugs

Thrall

Sorry for being unclear. We can use structured logic even though we have nothing to work with. The fact that we have no evidence is also evidence.

Christianity is formulated in such a way as to make it impossible to both verify and reject. How does this add to its credibility?

...and I've got this thing about always questioning myself. Even my own conclusions he he. Schizofrenic, who me....nah.... But I don't think I did so here.

[thrall]

Sorry for being unclear. We can use structured logic even though we have nothing to work with. The fact that we have no evidence is also evidence.

Christianity is formulated in such a way as to make it impossible to both verify and reject. How does this add to its credibility?

......Precisely.....


Evidence of non-evidence. So apply logic.......you can not prove or disprove.......anything.

Any and all conclusions you may make, logically, will only be opinion.........personal opinion.

All religions........not just Christianity......are set up with this conundrum built into them. That is why they are not a science, Tom.

They are however..........based on blind faith.

Credibility has nothing to do with anything in any Religion, because there is nothing to prove. Religon is about believing blindly in something bigger than yourself.

love you Tom
hugs and kisses

Thrall