So I forgot to make the bed (twice) and now we have an interesting discussion

[Naomisagoodgirl]

This discussion started in the cum restriction support thread. Basically, I forgot to make the bed two days in a row, and that sparked a discussion about:

-whether it is really possible to forget something twice
-whether punishment for accidental mistakes like this can be fun

And more interstingly:
-the merits of the "get on your knees bitch" Dom vs. the fluffy Dom, and the joy that can come from the middle road in between
-whether indulgence/bratty behavior keeps the relationship away from this middle road.


Here's a link to the previous discussion: http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...t=11939&page=5

Without talking about the bed making incident and what that may or may not imply about my relationship with Sir, I'm interested to hear everyone's opinions on this, and hear the previous arguments hashed out more if Oz, Rhabbi, and Logic are interested in hashing them. If we must use an example let's say a sub forgot to dust, twice.

(Oh man, it just occured to me that not only was this discussion in the wrong thread, it was probably in the wrong part of the forums. If anyone has the know how, and thinks this should be somewhere else, that would be dandy)

[Rhabbi]

This discussion started in the cum restriction support thread. Basically, I forgot to make the bed two days in a row, and that sparked a discussion about:

-whether it is really possible to forget something twice
-whether punishment for accidental mistakes like this can be fun

And more interstingly:
-the merits of the "get on your knees bitch" Dom vs. the fluffy Dom, and the joy that can come from the middle road in between
-whether indulgence/bratty behavior keeps the relationship away from this middle road.


Here's a link to the previous discussion: http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...t=11939&page=5

Without talking about the bed making incident and what that may or may not imply about my relationship with Sir, I'm interested to hear everyone's opinions on this, and hear the previous arguments hashed out more if Oz, Rhabbi, and Logic are interested in hashing them. If we must use an example let's say a sub forgot to dust, twice.

(Oh man, it just occured to me that not only was this discussion in the wrong thread, it was probably in the wrong part of the forums. If anyone has the know how, and thinks this should be somewhere else, that would be dandy)

I believe you have it in the right part of the forum, if not a mod can move it.

Here is my previuos post on this subject.

You miss the point of the question. But you make mine. I agree. That would be mistreatment. Why do you condone subs who mistreat the dom? (Only we call it disrespect.)

That's a different scenario. Forgetting some component of a larger or complex task doesn't require punishment of any sort. The attempt to learn counts. Tell me how forgetting the entire task is the equivalent?

Many threads morph. If you don't want to discuss it... stop asking questions or making statements that beg responses.

Point to any instance anywhere where I condoned anyone disrespecting anyone and I will back down on this issue.

My point, and I believe Logic's also, was that people are imperfect. Mishka particularly has trouble remembering things so I am sensitive on this issue. I discuss it with her when she forgets something, but do not assume that if she does it more than once that it is because she is being deliberately disobedient. Logic's initial comment was about accidental disobedience, and you chimed in with the opinion that it does not exists, that repeated instances of forgetting things is deliberate.

That is not the case, and it does not just mean simple forgetting part of a larger task. And would not forgetting to make the bed after living a whole life of not doing so fall into that category anyway? That of the myraid individual tasks of keeping house.

As I stated, the other thread is meant to discuss cum restriction as training, and although it expanding to include cum restriction as a punishment is not beyond the scope of that thread, this discussion about different philosophies of training and punishment is way beyond the original intent. That does not mean I am not willing to discuss it, but I do think we are going past the intent of Mishka when she started her thread. And, as she is on vacation, I am speaking up for her.

But now that Naomi saw the obvious solution and moved it I am more than willing to continue the discussion.

[moptop]

I'm having a wee smidget prob understanding what on earth you are all arguing about. I'm not sure what Naomi's point is either. So I'll try to work on both.

Please - I have stated this in an entirely male dom/female sub way - but I do not believe at all that it is a purely hetero issue, and I hope that all female doms/male subs will forgive me for being lazy and, frankly, wanting the words to flow. I am female and I am mostly hetero - so it's the way I think. It is not in any fashion meant to be exclusive.

1) Rhabbi, Oz, Logic: I don't believe you actually do disagree. It seems to me that the thing you havn't asked is 'what happened after she forgot the first time?'

If her master gave her a stern talking to, or even reminded her mildly but seriously, then she forgot again the very next day then yes, the immediate impression would be that it smacks of carelessness - a less than serious attitude to one's submission. I would expect any of the three of you to react in a fairly serious fashion, if you knew that this was the case.

You might, however, take into account any myriad of other factors - some subs may indeed have issues remembering things, for valid reasons; or maybe they are incredibly busy and stressed in their lives at the moment, and taking a hard line on routine matters that are suffering unusually will solve nothing, they need some understanding, they are human and have their capacity levels; etc etc.

I don't believe any of you - no, not even you, Oz, with your hard-line attitude - would just systematically say 'That is pure disobedience, I automatically punish'. You would consider; you would take into account what you know of that sub; you would know whether this behaviour was abnormal; basically, you would apply your minds, you would not just look up in a little book that said 'Forget twice == disobedience== punish'. Every situation is unique, every person is unique, every relationship is unique.

And I am quite certain that if you felt the sub was actually being lazy or purposefully disrespectful, you would punish; you would also then monitor.

2) Punishment - play punishment. Obviously, a sub also knows her dom. And a sub has desires. Sometimes, those desires are purposefully to be bratty or to misbehave in some way, in order to seek 'punishment' (aka play where she knows she will suffer and both will enjoy giving and taking the suffering). She knows what she's doing, she is doing it on purpose - and she knows it is within a limit where he will react in a playful manner, not actually taking her behaviour as genuine disobedience. We all agree that this is not real punishment. I believe we all recognise that it is a sub's job to give him the come-on and keep him amused, too.

Sometimes, however, the behaviour is a way of trying to show the dom, without having the guts/ability to say it outloud, that the sub wants greater control, or more play, or that there is some other form of problem in their relationship. The sub has the right to state her needs. She should state them in clear communication to her dom - but may not always manage; she may need assistance to open up something that is hard for her.

It is again part of the dominant's role to understand why the sub is behaving in a certain way. And if he doesn't understand, and the sub is not talking, to open the discussion and provide the sub with a space to explain her behaviour; or even to push her to do so, despite her reluctance. It may come out of this discussion that the behaviour was wilfully disrespectful, or a mixture of stuff, and may require punishment and talk and monitoring.

Again - just assuming that punishment is the only answer with no thought or understanding - I don't think any of you does that.

[annie]

I haven't read through the other thread entirely... and maybe I should before responding but heck... I feel like living dangerously today...

I have discovered over the past 2 years that my memory, especially short term, is 1,000 times worse then it used to be. I could remember minute details of every conversation before, now I'm doing good to remember what I had to eat an hour ago. So, memory is, for me, an issue at times as well.

When I forget something, once, twice, or perhaps more, it could very well be based on the fact that my memory is not what it used to be. Take the dusting for example. I may remember it several times during the day while completing something else but not remember to actually do it. This is by no means a wish to disrespect (or mistreat) my Dom but very well could happen based on life factors such as stress, urgency of other tasks, etc.

That being said I think there are two distinctions that need to be evaluated as well.

1) If the task is continually forgotten is it a matter of a bad memory or is it something else. Is it a task they don't enjoy and so don't strive to complete? Is it a task that they know isn't as important to you so they don't make it a priority? Is it a task that is not done regularly so the chance of forgetting it higher then normal? After the same task is missed many many times I think that is when it is necessary to take a good look at the "reasons" why and determine what they are exactly.

2) As a sub, and knowing how my memory is, and knowing that I want to please I attempt to make notes about EVERYTHING to help ensure I don't forget things. To me that is part of the task, although the part that I have to install to safe guard against my own failure. (Of course then the tricky part is remembering where the note is... lol)

Not sure if that makes any sense at all... but it did in my head before I put it down... lol

[Flaming_Redhead]

Accidental disobedience? Would you accept that excuse from a child? From an employee? More than once; "I forgot" doesn't fly in the vanilla world. Why should you accept that from your subs within the lifestyle.

Continual forgetfulness is not forgetfulness. It's no less willful than deliberate disobedience.

First of all, Oz, I'll have you know that sometimes continual forgetfulness is exactly what it seems to be, which is simply forgetfulness. I've suffered from it since I was a child. You can see the teachers' remarks on my report cards all the way back to elementary school where I've continually forgotten to do my homework. Yes, I hated to do homework, but I was always on the honor roll.

I may remember it several times during the day while completing something else but not remember to actually do it.

Annie, I'm guilty of remembering things I'm supposed to do during the day and then promptly forgetting to do them, such as mail bills. I've come to the conclusion that it's just a personality flaw that as of yet no one has been able to "fix," kind of like my chronic tardiness. I never mean to be late, but for some reason, I am.

And why do you need an excuse for "the fun kind of punishment." What you do for fun is not a punishment. If a punishment is required... it shouldn't be fun. So you encourage your submissive to play at being disobedient in order to get fun-time. You're talking about playing at B&D and S&M while you roleplay D/s.

Oz, my most interesting domly one, it's elementary. I love the feeling of being "in trouble." Of course, I'm not really being bad, and he's not really angry. Otherwise, it would not be fun at all. For instance, when I showed him my new black patent leather thigh high stilletto boots and asked if he wanted to lick them, I could barely say it with a straight face. In fact, when he gave me that look as if to ask "are you crazy," I was almost rolling on the floor from laughing so hard. Anyhow, when he snatched me out of bed and turned me over his knee for a spanking, I was in subbie heaven! It's just a way to be spontaneous without all the planning that goes into a scene.

And worst of all... when you make your submissives the center of attention, you serve them.

My submissives serve me. NONE of them, past or present, nor likely in the future, fail to understand their role. They obey because the want to please me. They fear getting punished, not because I'm harsh but because they truly do not wish to displease me and gladly offer themselves up for a spanking or a paddle, ten or twentyfold the number, because they know it pleases me to have them across my knee.

Why is that so awful? Just last night, VoodooMan served me by cooking spaghetti and garlic bread. He even said, albeit jokingly, "I'm here to serve." *smiles* Voodoo saying that is kinda like me saying "lick my boots" isn't it?

This past weekend, after I scraped paint off his bedroom windows and helped him clean his room, he served me the next day by making the breakfast I wanted, giving me a massage and letting me nap the day away, taking me to a movie and out to dinner. I understand my role just fine. I want to please him but not because I fear him or fear being punished. He inspires me to want to please him. Even though he serves me, I make no mistake about who is Dom and who is sub. I guess that's one lesson I haven't forgotten.

[Rhabbi]

I am so glad the subs are finally weighing in on this. It seems that I can never sommun the tact to say things as nicely as they do, and with Mishka on vacation I have no one to bring what little I have out. kestrel is like me in that she gets right down to the point to say something.

All these points are what I was trying to say, but it just sounds so much better when said with tact. Especially the way you put it Red, thank you all.

[thrall]

Hello everyone......

I have a question for OZ........

HI Oz.......

In the cum restriction thread you make reference to a "middle road", could you explain this please?

I think that is where all the fuss is coming from......

thanks thrall

[princess_of_pain]

*edited*

[nightsilver]

I find oscillating between fluffy and harsh gives the best of both worlds... though fluffy and light hearted is more of my normal state.

[Ocean_Soul]

I like to ask if she thinks she needs to be punished. Seems to be a good gauge.

Just put it ALLLLL on her!

*PLOP*


Edit: There you go Moptop, that's the best I can do.

[wingsofanangel]

-giggles- thats the worst Ocean and you'd know..

God's I hate that.. lol.. but it.. in itself is a punishment... -le sigh-

-anya-

[princess_of_pain]

I like to ask if she thinks she needs to be punished. Seems to be a good gauge.

Just put it ALLLLL on her!

*PLOP*


Edit: There you go Moptop, that's the best I can do.

OMG, that's tantamount to a parent saying: "What do you think your punishment should be Suzie?" Hee! (Ironically, when posed with this query as a child, my mother claims I devised some heinous, twisted torture scenario that left her wondering if she needed a better screening process for my entertainment material. Cool.

[annie]

OMG, that's tantamount to a parent saying: "What do you think your punishment should be Suzie?" Hee! (Ironically, when posed with this query as a child, my mother claims I devised some heinous, twisted torture scenario that left her wondering if she needed a better screening process for my entertainment material. Cool.

ROFL... that is to funny!

[rach]

OMG, that's tantamount to a parent saying: "What do you think your punishment should be Suzie?" Hee! (Ironically, when posed with this query as a child, my mother claims I devised some heinous, twisted torture scenario that left her wondering if she needed a better screening process for my entertainment material. Cool.

roflmao- too funny!

[rach]

I like to ask if she thinks she needs to be punished. Seems to be a good gauge.Just put it ALLLLL on her! *PLOP*

That's so damned evil! And i always came up with a harsh punishment for myself whenever i was asked that!

[Ocean_Soul]

OMG, that's tantamount to a parent saying: "What do you think your punishment should be Suzie?" Hee! (Ironically, when posed with this query as a child, my mother claims I devised some heinous, twisted torture scenario that left her wondering if she needed a better screening process for my entertainment material. Cool.

And somehow, and I don't know how or what lead to this, but later in life you end up on a BDSM forum under the username "princess of pain."

[margaret]

I like to ask if she thinks she needs to be punished. Seems to be a good gauge.

Just put it ALLLLL on her!

*PLOP*


Edit: There you go Moptop, that's the best I can do.

That makes sense to me. There are also times when an offense may not have warranted a punishment but a punishment would help me to either remember not to forget or to accept that it's over and done with.

[Ozme52]

...

[jeanne]

Discussion with a dominant = interesting
Trying to change their mind when their opinions/beliefs have been formed through many years of experience and extensive self-knowledge = futile
Getting in the middle of a difference of opinion/belief between two dominants = foolhardy

All of the above is the reason why I stay out of the dust-ups when the testosterone starts to fly.

With a strongly developed sense of self-preservation,
jeanne

[princess_of_pain]

Discussion with a dominant = interesting
Trying to change their mind when their opinions/beliefs have been formed through many years of experience and extensive self-knowledge = futile
Getting in the middle of a difference of opinion/belief between two dominants = foolhardy

All of the above is the reason why I stay out of the dust-ups when the testosterone starts to fly.

With a strongly developed sense of self-preservation,
jeanne

*edit*

[Rhabbi]

*Edited*

[rach]

his_j

Discussion with a dominant = interesting
Trying to change their mind when their opinions/beliefs have been formed through many years of experience and extensive self-knowledge = futile
Getting in the middle of a difference of opinion/belief between two dominants = foolhardy

All of the above is the reason why I stay out of the dust-ups when the testosterone starts to fly.

With a strongly developed sense of self-preservation,

Oh god oh so true!

LOL.

I try to do that but I think my masochism only goes so far!

[princess_of_pain]

LOL Gotta go with rach on the last one. That'd be one of my HARD LIMITS right there. So many other things I'd rather be doing...

[Ozme52]

Getting in the middle of a difference of opinion/belief between two dominants

Exactly right. This was a conversation between the two or three of us.

and...

(next post)

[Ozme52]

I guess the moderators don't mind when you do it.

*EDIT* Yes, we do mind!

[Rhabbi]

*Edited*

[Ozme52]

*Edited*

[Ozme52]

*Edited*

[Rhabbi]

*Edited*

[rach]

I wasn't a reinforcement I wasn't even aware that there was an argument between dominants. I was stating my opinion and I'm sure everyone else was as well. I was engaging in a discussion not getting between anyone.

I was trying to get involved more in the forums as a way of personally remembering and honouring Rabbit who I respected a lot in the time I knew him- now I feel like I should just stay away as everything seems to be misconstrued.