Pushing Hard Limits

[Flaming_Redhead]

Anyone that has taken my hard limit questionaire hopefully learned something about themselves. I have found that subs set a lot of hard limits that are areas that they secretly want to go. I bet that I am not the only Dom that has had this experience.

Filling out the limits questionnaire knowing that no one would ever actually use it is a whole different animal than filling it out because you have been told to, for the purposes of your One's knowledge. It's a lot harder to be completely open and honest - and very tempting to set some items as hard limits because admitting that you want them or at least would be willing to do them if He did is just plain embarrassing.

Ok, people, I am reading this and just shaking my head. Sir Russell, I am absolutely positive that you have had an experience where a sub was not totally honest with you because most people lie. However, I am an intelligent, honest and sexually confident person. I happen to know what the meaning is of "hard limit" versus "soft limit," and I also know what my hard limits are. The chance of them changing is zero percent. For anyone to push them is not only insulting but very untrustworthy behavior. All I can say is thank goodness my Dom and I have the same hard limits, so we will not be doing or even discussing doing any watersports, scat, kid porn, etc.

That being said, his_j, what people need to realize is that by not being honest about what you know you like, might like and just plain abhor, you are severely limiting the experiences you could potentially have. When you set something down as a "hard limit," you are saying, "Don't go there EVER. I don't like this at all. If you do this to me, I will be traumatized, and the relationship will end effective immediately." I have a difficult time believing that there are people out there who are so sexually repressed that they can't admit to their significant other that they want to try anal sex (for example). *rme* If you're filling out a BDSM checklist for a Dom/me, you've already admitted to being a "pervert."

[Rhabbi]

Okay, I don't really agree here. I may lose a lot of friends or respect but I feel that a Dom has to push some of the limits.

Anyone that has taken my hard limit questionaire hopefully learned something about themselves. I have found that subs set a lot of hard limits that are areas that they secretly want to go. I bet that I am not the only Dom that has had this experience.

So I think that a Dom trying to really learn his sub/slave actual limits has to at least brush each one, except of course those that are also his hard limits. When doing this I have to be hyper aware of everything about her and back totally away if she responds badly. I also do things verbally to test these limits again to find which are actually ones that she feels are so perverted that they scare her more then she is willing to admit to that dark want.

A sub I took a while ago had a bunch of these limits listed before we started. One was no chains during bondage, of course she started with I have to have one hand free at all times and tath limit she ask me to break our first night. Any ways after a while I brought out my chains while she was tied spread eagle to the bed and layed them across her on the bed. She instantly went back into subspace. Now that sub begs for chains and needs them on her body while feeling how strong they are and how impossible it would be to break free. If I had left that one untouched she would have missed out on a thrill that she loves very much.

Now would I deliberately push a sub/slave to break a hard limit no never but would I test each one softly and subtle, damn right I will.

Oh if she has a hard limit with a hard reason that it is a limit then no I would not go there at all.

Russell

Ok, people, I am reading this and just shaking my head. Sir Russell, I am absolutely positive that you have had an experience where a sub was not totally honest with you because most people lie. However, I am an intelligent, honest and sexually confident person. I happen to know what the meaning is of "hard limit" versus "soft limit," and I also know what my hard limits are. The chance of them changing is zero percent. For anyone to push them is not only insulting but very untrustworthy behavior. All I can say is thank goodness my Dom and I have the same hard limits, so we will not be doing or even discussing doing any watersports, scat, kid porn, etc.

That being said, his_j, what people need to realize is that by not being honest about what you know you like, might like and just plain abhor, you are severely limiting the experiences you could potentially have. When you set something down as a "hard limit," you are saying, "Don't go there EVER. I don't like this at all. If you do this to me, I will be traumatized, and the relationship will end effective immediately." I have a difficult time believing that there are people out there who are so sexually repressed that they can't admit to their significant other that they want to try anal sex (for example). *rme* If you're filling out a BDSM checklist for a Dom/me, you've already admitted to being a "pervert."

This might seem strange, but as I read these posts I found myself totally agreeing with both of them. To me this means that there must be another factor involved than limits.

I think it is experience. I treat an experienced sub who tells me her hard limits differently than I do an inexperienced one. this is because I have found, like Sir Russell, that the limits that she expresses are more about what she thinks than what she knows.

I always discuss the limits questionnaire in as much detail as is practical before I play with someone so that I will have a feel for why a sub lists certain things as a limit. If it is fear, then I will approach that limit only after a bond of trust has developed. If it is inexperience, then I might explain it in more detail and even try it with them. This is, IMO, part of training.

On the other hand, if a sub is experienced, then limits are limits. This is a simple matter of respect. In this I agree with Flaming-Redhead. Does this make me wishy-washy, or is it a simple acknowledgment that experience makes a difference?

[Flaming_Redhead]

This might seem strange, but as I read these posts I found myself totally agreeing with both of them....Does this make me wishy-washy, or is it a simple acknowledgment that experience makes a difference?

No, it really doesn't make you wishy-washy. It's just sad that someone would rather put something down as a NO instead of a MAYBE simply due to embarressment. I have a few absolute "no thank you" type activities, but I have very many "maybe" and "not-my-favorite-but-will-do-for-you" type activities. An example of a maybe activity involves paddles. I didn't list it as a hard limit (still don't), just a dislike. We have discovered that I am so terrified of paddles that my eyes welled up with tears at the mere mention of having one made. I have a very good reason for this. However, I have stated that if VoodooMan wishes to push this, he may do so. He has decided that, at least for now, it is in my best interest not to. An example of a not-my-favorite activity is oral sex. I have TMJ in my left jaw, so it can be a little uncomfortable at times to perform BJs, not to mention the gagging now and then. I do them anyway because he likes them.

[Rhabbi]

No, it really doesn't. It's just sad that someone would rather put something down as a NO instead of a MAYBE simple due to embarressment. I have a few absolute "no thank you" type activities, but I have very many "maybe" and "not-my-favorite-but-will-do-for-you" type activities. An example of an extreme case for me is paddles. I didn't list it as a hard limit (still don't) even though I apparently have a phobia of them. We have discovered that I am so terrified of paddles that my eyes will well up with tears at the mere mention of being paddled. I have a very good reason for this. However, I have stated that if VoodooMan wishes to pursue this, he may do so. He has decided that, at least for now, it is in my best interest not to.

This is the way I feel about a lot of Mishka's limits that she wants to rescind. I may do so, but for now I am leaving them alone.

[jeanne]

It's just sad that someone would rather put something down as a NO instead of a MAYBE simply due to embarressment.

I don't usually write posts directly to specific people, but I particularly wanted what I'm about to say be public. Red, your post was very helpful to me. I'll be honest - at first I was "What?!" But, I was also in a spot that was very uncomfortable to me - staring at a limits questionaire that was actually going to be used by someone. And I was struggling with filling it out honestly. Your post made me rethink the NOs, each one on an individual basis, and ask myself: "Why is this a NO? Is there any circumstance under which I could imagine this not being a NO?" After that re-examination of my long, long list of NOs, it became a long, long list of soft limits, with some NOs sprinkled in. You pushed me to get honest, with myself and Him, and I thank you for that Red.

Still learning about myself, and Red helped,
jeanne