Pushing Hard Limits

[Flaming_Redhead]

Whew! For a second, I thought you were pissed! LOL I'm glad I could be of help. *hugs*

[jeanne]

Red, for a second, I was! But I've learned over the years that often the thing that pisses you off the most is the one you need to learn from. Whether a person, a statement, an event, a circumstance...and I learned from you. No worries here, dear.

[cariad]

Like nearly all subs, I have hard limits. Some of which I we have discussed, and he knows, others which to be honest do not need to be said because they are just somewhere where neither of us would wish to go.

Some of what I originally gave as a hard limits have been pushed and I love it, and love him for it. There was however one instance, when he pushed a hard limit, which was much harder for me than he realised - since it did not make sense to him. It was a mistake which he is horrified that he made, and it took sometime to rebuild the trust. I have fully forgiven him, but the scar will always remain.

Just glad I am not a Domme - is not an easy path.

cariad

[Flaming_Redhead]

Red, for a second, I was! But I've learned over the years that often the thing that pisses you off the most is the one you need to learn from. Whether a person, a statement, an event, a circumstance...and I learned from you. No worries here, dear.

I guess I should've said that I was worried that you were still pissed. *smiles* I apologize if I seem to lack sensitivity at times, but one thing you can count on me for is being a straight shooter. Of course, it doesn't win you any popularity contests.

[tessa]

This thread is such a learning mine field. I love it!

"hard limit," you are saying, "Don't go there EVER. I don't like this at all. If you do this, I will be traumatized, and the relationship will end effective immediately."

This is my definition of "hard limit", for Dom/me or sub. But I also put my perspective of "knowing myself" into that definition. Which is why what Sir Russell says here-

Anyone that has taken my hard limit questionaire hopefully learned something about themselves. I have found that subs set a lot of hard limits that are areas that they secretly want to go.

made so much sense to me. Ten years ago, all limits would have been "hard limits" for me. Now I only have two, set in stone, hard limits. It's definitely a learning process for sure.

So I think that a Dom trying to really learn his sub/slave actual limits has to at least brush each one, except of course those that are also his hard limits.

Love that "brush each one" image there. Excellently stated. And I have a question, if I may. Questions actually, again, if I may. How often is the hard limit questionaire to be re-visited? What if one of the sub's previous hard limits changes to not a limit, yet it still remains a hard limit for the Dom/me? What then- brush it or avoid it? Same question in reverse. What about if it was hard limits'ville for the Dom/me but is no longer? Curious...

Pardon as my want-to-learn is showing.

Now would I deliberately push a sub/slave to break a hard limit- no never- but would I test each one softly and subtle, damn right I will.

That's 'cause you're a smart, smart man.

Oh if she has a hard limit with a hard reason that it is a limit then no I would not go there at all.

Again, smart. And I love having this insight into the Dominant mind. It sure does help so much with the learning process. Thank you.

There are maybe's and then there are no's. Pushing the maybe's can be hot.

~nods in big-time agreement~

Pushing the no's is disrespectful.

And potentially damamging, which is why I had to ask the "pushing" question initially. I like how you think, Euryleia.

I think it is experience. I treat an experienced sub who tells me her hard limits differently than I do an inexperienced one. this is because I have found, like Sir Russell, that the limits that she expresses are more about what she thinks than what she knows.

A grand thing for a Dom/me to know.

I think any need a dom might feel to push hard limits is mostly from a sub invoking the "hard" label when it isn't really warranted.

Exactly! Well said!

If a sub tells me she was anally raped with a knife at her throat, forced to bite down on an apple to stop her from screaming, then I would quickly know that her "hard limit" on being taken anally, use of knives in played or gagged is a hard limit, then I would never push on any of them. The opposite of this would be anal is a hard limit because it is wrong. That one I have to push a little to see how real it is.

These examples you give are most helpful in this defining process I'm in. Many thanks again.

And you aren't a "bad Dom", Sir Russell, and you know it. We are all different and operate under different theories. Having a set basis of respect for all that is D/s is what's important. That and a sense of true care and concern. You have all that (and much more, I'm sure).

These posts have helped clarify so much for me. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to put your thoughts here.

tessa

[Sir_Russell]

tessa,
I recommend taking the questionaire every six months or any time there has been a break through. Life is not set in stone neither are some hard limits. I still go through mine often. Sometimes it is the sub and our relationship that causes it.

Funny but knowing her real hard limits will bhange mine. If she has a hard limit on something I think of as normal usage or common practice then I have to decide whether she is worth the loss of that activity. Funny I don't think I ever found that I couldn't find a substitute and be happy with her. For an example I love chains and handcuffs and if I found that either or both was a really a hard limit for her I would have put them away and learned more about ropes etc.

hope this helps

oh one quick statement I don't like maybes as a choice in hard limits. It is why mine has 2 answers and 8 choices on how to rate it

[Platonicus]

My opinion is that hard limits are exactly that and as long as a submissive considers an activity to be a hard limit, it should not be broached. As someone else mentioned, limits sometimes change which I think very well illustrates the need for constant dialogue and meaningful communication. With the passage of time trust deepens between a submissive and Dominant and activities that the submissive might have once considered hard limits become areas that they may choose to explore, but again I would say that is the submissive’s choice to make. At that point, it is no longer a hard limit and I think it is entirely ethical to push the limit at that point to help the submissive experience growth. But again, the importance of good communication cannot be overstated. Personally, I want a submissive to choose to explore areas that they may find intimidating or even a bit scary for their own reasons and not out of a desire to please me by engaging in something that they truly don’t find meaningful for their own reasons.

Platonicus

[Austerus]

I've always considered a Hard Limit to be a deal breaker. It's a "don't do it, don't ask, if you bring it up you'd better be laughing and make it obvious it's a joke. If it ever changes it will be because I specifically chose to soften the limit. Till then don't touch."

Whereas a soft limit is "not into it, don't really want to do it. If you push at it a little the limit may harden to a hard limit or soften further...but don't push too hard and you'd better be careful with it."

The thing is that if a "hard limit" is meant to be pushed then there needs to be another category beyond "hard" limit to denote "no not ever." Personally, for me and so far for all those I have had relationships with, the granularity of Soft/Hard has been plenty.

Note that if you -don't- have some category of limit which is "no not ever" then effectively you're in a TPE relationship, and the sub has no right to set any boundaries. For my money that treads a little too close to abuse.

[Ozme52]

I've always considered a Hard Limit to be a deal breaker. It's a "don't do it, don't ask, if you bring it up you'd better be laughing and make it obvious it's a joke. If it ever changes it will be because I specifically chose to soften the limit. Till then don't touch."

Whereas a soft limit is "not into it, don't really want to do it. If you push at it a little the limit may harden to a hard limit or soften further...but don't push too hard and you'd better be careful with it."

The thing is that if a "hard limit" is meant to be pushed then there needs to be another category beyond "hard" limit to denote "no not ever." Personally, for me and so far for all those I have had relationships with, the granularity of Soft/Hard has been plenty.

Note that if you -don't- have some category of limit which is "no not ever" then effectively you're in a TPE relationship, and the sub has no right to set any boundaries. For my money that treads a little too close to abuse.

That's the problem with the language. Definitions that lie on a scalar continuum are fluid and mean different things to differnet people.

So rather than discuss things in terms of hard or soft limits, it's actually helpful to use an activities checklist like the one Sir Russell has provided... AND to update it on a regular basis so that changing interests and curiosities can be noted.

Fill one out yourself so you submissive can make similar observations and maybe even alter his/her own limits as they see what you have curiosity about... and where your fantasies lie.

And occassionally just go through the list and talk about the reasons behind those things that are limits. Some of them may disappear with a negotiated common definition.

I for example, had a hard limit against hard beatings until my submissive told me what she meant when she said she was curious.

[jeanne]

And occassionally just go through the list and talk about the reasons behind those things that are limits. Some of them may disappear with a negotiated common definition.

I for example, had a hard limit against hard beatings until my submissive told me what she meant when she said she was curious.

Agreement on definition is always good - sometimes each person's idea of what something means is very different. (Although I still find talking about it embarrassing, it's getting a little easier.)


jeanne

[Gr1m'sGirl]

A hard limit should not be pushed at all unless you've talked with your sub about it and they've agreed to it. If any of mine were pushed when I clearly stated that I don't want them to happen, thats it. Relationship is over, have a nice life.

[Polaris]

But in case you've talked to your sub about it and they have agreed to it, hasn't the hard limit become a soft limit already? One that maybe requires a lot of consideration and care in being pushed, but no longer hard nonetheless? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious

[Rhabbi]

A hard limit should not be pushed at all unless you've talked with your sub about it and they've agreed to it. If any of mine were pushed when I clearly stated that I don't want them to happen, thats it. Relationship is over, have a nice life.

But in case you've talked to your sub about it and they have agreed to it, hasn't the hard limit become a soft limit already? One that maybe requires a lot of consideration and care in being pushed, but no longer hard nonetheless? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious

Part of pushing a hard limit is talking about it, thus making it a soft limit. Conversation and education are subtle ways to push a limit, but are nonetheless pushing it.