True Doms Vs Play Doms

[Ozme52]

Geez Oz- a most thought provoking post indeed.

Hmmm.


Tojo

Ain't it though.

[cariad]

I am with you there Oz and Tojo. Yes Lily, both tops and bottoms can have their hearts broken but in my experience Doms are always one step ahead in how much of themselves they are laying on the line, speaking emotionally rather than physically.

Dare I suggest that this is one reason why a true sub is not a doormat but is strong and nurtures her Dom. During a scene he is the one who is proactive and putting his head above the parapet, and he would not be human if he was not concerned about how he had 'performed'. Was his timing right, was he too hard, too gentle etc etc, and picking up the theme of the moment, he is the one whose poor aftercare could result in subdrop. Yes, he will make mistakes, but she can guide him away from those and tend his wounds until he is ready to rise up even stronger than before.

It was those thoughts which were behind my posts in defence of wannabe and newbie Doms. The only type of Dom I exclude from this is the truly abusive and bullying Dom, but I think that is a point which did not need making.

cariad

[TomOfSweden]

In this discussion about true doms vs fake doms I get a feeling that the definition is different in degree for everybody.

But Rabbits idea that a true dom cares a lot about their subs enjoyment and safety I would definatly agree on would be the most important thing. Being mature, level headed and with a calm personality I also think would be on the list. Subs often look to me for answers, and I need to be able to give good guidance no matter what. Maybe it's just me but being a Dom is more responsibility than just cuddling once a scene is over.

I've got two examples of disastrous relationships. One was a very submissive girl. She obeyed me to the letter, often came with new advice on how to humiliate her and gave me torture implements as gifts all the time. Comunication wasn't the best and I was quite young then. I tried to press out from her what it was she felt and wanted but she always said that she lived for me and the whole fantasy submissive package. Off-course it ended up with her becoming depressed, and I felt worthless because she was depressed where it all ended up with her suddenly leaving/fleeing me without a word. Looking back I realise that there was probably not a lot I could have done in that situation. I should have been a lot more atentive but because of my lack of experience I just didn't know what to look for. That relationship was doomed from day one. I'm not saying it was her fault, I'm just saying that if a sub isn't so emotionally developed when it comes to her/his submissiveness and has a hard time speaking about their emotions they need a very experienced Master that can, (correctly spot and) tell her what she's feeling.

My second disaster relationship was a girl who had a really fucked up back-ground full of abuse and alcoholism both in her family and in her life and she was really fragile. Needless to say she was a submissive and I was a mature and experienced Master by that point. Her background meant that I was very atentive to her needs and I had no problems spotting her problems and needs. The relationship was great the first year. Once she felt safe with me she started to bloom as a personality and she started to become braver and happier. This is when things went bad. She started to assume that I always would look out for her so she started to stop listening to my orders and we started getting in lots of stupid arguments. This was when I realised that I had taken the role of her father, and at first she had emotionally been a little fragile girl and now she was a rebelious teenager. I was a lot older than her and I should have seen it comming a mile away. It took me a lot longer than it should for me to realise this. Her being very beautiful I think was what really blinded me. The whole thing was that she wasn't a 24/7 submissive really. It was mostly down to her having a very bad confidence in her self and once she'd built it up she wasn't really into 24/7 but rather just submissive play. Since we were still very much in love this led to endless conflicts, where my need to look after and care for a slave weren't met and her need to be indipendant clashed. So even though it was great at first it still turned to shit.

I hope these two true stories from my life can help somebody. My point being that just being a true Dominant isn't always enough. Things can still fuck up even if you have everything going for you and things look good from the start.

[Timberwolf]

"I doubt many, if any at all, of the doms open up when they've put time and effort into someone who just wasn't ready, or merely curious.

Perhaps our pain is greater because we bear it alone."

True, but is there any real need for this? Doms are supposed to be strong (for that matter so are subs in my view). There's no weakness in displaying the truth.

Emotionally, D/s is a heavily serious investment for anyone regardless of role. I think that's one of the things that really drew me in to begin with, I feel a bond that develops in D/s that goes well past what I've known before. Not talking a sexual bond, I mean the trust and respect required to make real progress. In any situation like that, unfortunately the flip side of the coin is we all become vulnerable.

I do agree that dealing with a new Dom who's wielding a flogger or what have you for the first time might be... difficult. But hopefully most people have enough common sense to start small and go from there (he wishes, knowing full well many won't).

[isabeau6]

I have had some interesting conversations lately with some new submissives.

And the main question is ---how do you Tell ----a true Dom from a want to be

Usually the first thing I tell a sub---is a true Dom with try to find your comfort level----

This life style requires that both sub and Dom find enjoyment from what they are doing.

A true Dom will get his pleasure from guiding you and teaching you to expand from your comfort level. Not just jump in where he is comfortable.

We have a lot of want to be Doms here --who want nothing else but a sex show online --- where they control what you do ---This is fine if that is what the sub is looking for.

A true Dom will try to build a level of trust with his sub.

a want to be will want to be just jump right in there --trying to tell the sub what to do.


True Doms care about their subs --- not just getting off themselves ---they do try to make sure their subs have got off also


True Dom make their subs want to come back for more ---the want to be just do not care

There are alot of True Doms here --but I am afraid we are out numbered by the want to be Doms

So subs take care choose wisely ---you can be hurt by the want to be s not just physically ---but turned off to the whole life style by them

from everything i've read and everything i know about you, Rabbit...that is an adept description of who you are...a True Dom....you took the time to get to know me first...to know what i am comfortable with...i'm very lucky that you have chosen me...and i will prove to you that i'm also a true submissive..

[Sir_Russell]

Well said Rabbit1 I only feel that a wannabe Dom is the first stage of a newbee Dom. The guys you describe I refer to as posers or worse abusers.

Great advice no matter the terms.

[sidhewolf]

In this discussion about true doms vs fake doms I get a feeling that the definition is different in degree for everybody.

But Rabbits idea that a true dom cares a lot about their subs enjoyment and safety I would definatly agree on would be the most important thing. Being mature, level headed and with a calm personality I also think would be on the list. Subs often look to me for answers, and I need to be able to give good guidance no matter what. Maybe it's just me but being a Dom is more responsibility than just cuddling once a scene is over.

I've got two examples of disastrous relationships. One was a very submissive girl. She obeyed me to the letter, often came with new advice on how to humiliate her and gave me torture implements as gifts all the time. Comunication wasn't the best and I was quite young then. I tried to press out from her what it was she felt and wanted but she always said that she lived for me and the whole fantasy submissive package. Off-course it ended up with her becoming depressed, and I felt worthless because she was depressed where it all ended up with her suddenly leaving/fleeing me without a word. Looking back I realise that there was probably not a lot I could have done in that situation. I should have been a lot more atentive but because of my lack of experience I just didn't know what to look for. That relationship was doomed from day one. I'm not saying it was her fault, I'm just saying that if a sub isn't so emotionally developed when it comes to her/his submissiveness and has a hard time speaking about their emotions they need a very experienced Master that can, (correctly spot and) tell her what she's feeling.

My second disaster relationship was a girl who had a really fucked up back-ground full of abuse and alcoholism both in her family and in her life and she was really fragile. Needless to say she was a submissive and I was a mature and experienced Master by that point. Her background meant that I was very atentive to her needs and I had no problems spotting her problems and needs. The relationship was great the first year. Once she felt safe with me she started to bloom as a personality and she started to become braver and happier. This is when things went bad. She started to assume that I always would look out for her so she started to stop listening to my orders and we started getting in lots of stupid arguments. This was when I realised that I had taken the role of her father, and at first she had emotionally been a little fragile girl and now she was a rebelious teenager. I was a lot older than her and I should have seen it comming a mile away. It took me a lot longer than it should for me to realise this. Her being very beautiful I think was what really blinded me. The whole thing was that she wasn't a 24/7 submissive really. It was mostly down to her having a very bad confidence in her self and once she'd built it up she wasn't really into 24/7 but rather just submissive play. Since we were still very much in love this led to endless conflicts, where my need to look after and care for a slave weren't met and her need to be indipendant clashed. So even though it was great at first it still turned to shit.

I hope these two true stories from my life can help somebody. My point being that just being a true Dominant isn't always enough. Things can still fuck up even if you have everything going for you and things look good from the start.

Hello All~
I Know this is a pretty old thread, but I have some thoughts and experience to share as well. Most of the responses here were very valid I think, and had some very good points to consider per the Topic Title. This Topic is also a very difficult and controversial one for many. It also spurs a lot of thought. I Chose this post for my response because it is so very True to my Heart.

Things Can go wrong irregardless of Knowledge, Experience, or Intent, because We are PPL First...and Noone is perfect. As PPL We make mistakes and miss-takes all the time.

Many Dominants, Submissives, and Switches (new or not), get hurt in this Style of Relating. No matter the precautions taken. No one, Dominant, Submissive, or Switch can think of or exactly calculate Every possible error in these things. I think that perhaps too much focus is placed on who is to blame for that, rather than What went wrong, Learning from it, and moving forward. Anyone (no matter who) can get depressed, turned off to, or squicked, by this Style of Relating, because of things that went awry. I've seen it happen with Dominants, Submissives, and Switches, who withdrew with a bad taste in their mouth. But I have rarely seen when it happens that things do go awry, thta it was just one persons fault. Most times it is the Top or Dominant who is blammed, or termed a wannabe, because things didn't go as planned, or hoped for, or as others thought they Should, by someone. And sympathy goes out most times to the Submissive crying foul. But as this posted response by Tom of Sweden shows, and as I have seen in my Real Life, Realisticly All Parties *share* in the Responsibility for these things. And when things go wrong Everyone hurts, Dominant, Submissive, Switches, all the same, and each in their own way. as shown in Ozme's response. Each Persons pain is relative to them!

We All have hopes, dreams, wants, and needs. And We persue these in the ways We can, hopefully Learning and Growing along the way. It helps Us All Greatly I think to pay close attention, and to follow closely and Listen to the Experienced Knowledgable Elders of whatever area's We Choose to persue in Life and Love. It also helps to take All things slowly and consider them well before gobbling them down, even when starving. And then blamming the person whose kitchen We ate from, when it was us who Chose to eat, and We enjoyed the food while eating. Too many times attention to detail is not given because We want or need something so badly. We ignore the signs that it may not be what We Really want or need. Sometimes We settle for what *seems* close enough....mistakenly. If there is to be blame for these things, must We not first look within to Our own errors, before going on a wannabe Dom/me, wannabe Submissive hunt?

Respectfully~SidheWolf

[jeanne]

Well, maybe if you're talking physical damage... but I suspect most of you are talking emotional damage... and in that case I disagree.

Wannabe subs do far more harm to true doms than wannabe doms do to true subs. I know we'll disagree on that... but I think I know how many of you feel. You are all pretty open about how you feel when you've been hurt or disappointed. I doubt many, if any at all, of the doms open up when they've put time and effort into someone who just wasn't ready, or merely curious.

Perhaps our pain is greater because we bear it alone.

I am beginning to understand this - at first the emotional risk felt one-sided (on my side) but as time goes by I really begin to see how much it is truly a two-way street. Which is great. But yes, submissives are often very open about their feelings with each other and support each other when we hurt, whereas doms are more closed in when things go awry. They do tend, I think, to lick their wounds alone. Which is a shame.

I am with you there Oz and Tojo. Yes Lily, both tops and bottoms can have their hearts broken but in my experience Doms are always one step ahead in how much of themselves they are laying on the line, speaking emotionally rather than physically.

Dare I suggest that this is one reason why a true sub is not a doormat but is strong and nurtures her Dom. During a scene he is the one who is proactive and putting his head above the parapet, and he would not be human if he was not concerned about how he had 'performed'. Was his timing right, was he too hard, too gentle etc etc, and picking up the theme of the moment, he is the one whose poor aftercare could result in subdrop. Yes, he will make mistakes, but she can guide him away from those and tend his wounds until he is ready to rise up even stronger than before.

It was those thoughts which were behind my posts in defence of wannabe and newbie Doms. The only type of Dom I exclude from this is the truly abusive and bullying Dom, but I think that is a point which did not need making.

cariad

Yes! He takes on so much responsibility. And it is my hope that I always support him and let him know how special and important and wonderful I think he is. Expressing my appreciation and gratitude costs me nothing and gains me so much.

If there is to be blame for these things, must We not first look within to Our own errors, before going on a wannabe Dom/me, wannabe Submissive hunt?

Respectfully~SidheWolf

Amen. We must first look within. A sign of maturity, I think.

[MR-Thomas]

new myself interesting

[Sir_Russell]

A quick word here about the difference between a Dom and an abuser.

A Dom does care for his sub and a Master/Owner even more since he is investing a lot of time and effort in making her happy. A Dom/Master has to since an unhappy sub will not be his for very long. I can only tell you that when I take either a sub or slave I have spent a lot of time talking with her, feeling her out as too her stability. Unfortuneitly I am not all ways right, as recent experience has proven, but I am all ways thinking about what is good for her. Sometimes that is letting her go, no matter how beautiful she is, for the good of both of us.

An abuser is only wearing the title of Dom to convince subs that he will be safe to trust their body and mind too. He wants to hurt and harm, probably doesn't like woman very much other then to take out deep seeded hostilities on them. He may well be straight sexually but even that can be nothing more then an act since a lot of them just care about themselves and are more Asexual then sexual.

A poser normally is harmless enough since he is looking for easy sex where his skills won't be questioned since he is the Dom.

[DowntownAmber]

I am in my late 20's and entering into the first relationship I've ever had with a man I feel comfortable callng my Dom. I have never called another lover "Sir," nor have even seriously considered it. Yet, my submissive tendancies have been a part of me for, well, as long as I can remember. I've tried to encourage this lifestyle with other partners, to nudge them into sharing my fantasies, so why such a long wait? Why did I always back away from other partners and why could I never before feel comfortable being the sub I had desired to be?

Simply, J-Go is the first partner I've had that has taken a such a considerable amount of time feeling out not only what I like but why, where my comfort levels are, and how to learn along with me. He asks questions, looks for feedback, and he is open and honest about his desires and expectations as well. His care for me is above and beyond the level of concern I have ever felt coming from another lover. I feel protected and safe even when we venture into experiences that frighten me a little or are uncomfortable to begin with. I trust him as a result of the concern he's shown me. Any one of my past boyfriends would have happily tied me up or spanked me or whatever else, but they would have done it because it was fun for them -- with J-Go it's a communion between us.

Both he and I are very new to the lifestyle and I know we both have plenty to learn but, to me, this is what makes him a "true" Dom.

[Ozme52]

LOL Amber... not at ya... just amused with my thoughts as I read your post.

The semantics are so subtle. Everything you said sounds good... and yet... my sub understands that everything we do is indeed for me... her submission gives her pleasure in doing... for me.

She gets by giving. Ask her though, and I have no doubt she'd tell you I was attentive to her needs and very attuned to her.

Yes. The semantics are indeed subtle.

[Polaris]

A quick word here about the difference between a Dom and an abuser.

A Dom does care for his sub and a Master/Owner even more since he is investing a lot of time and effort in making her happy. A Dom/Master has to since an unhappy sub will not be his for very long. I can only tell you that when I take either a sub or slave I have spent a lot of time talking with her, feeling her out as too her stability. Unfortuneitly I am not all ways right, as recent experience has proven, but I am all ways thinking about what is good for her. Sometimes that is letting her go, no matter how beautiful she is, for the good of both of us.

An abuser is only wearing the title of Dom to convince subs that he will be safe to trust their body and mind too. He wants to hurt and harm, probably doesn't like woman very much other then to take out deep seeded hostilities on them. He may well be straight sexually but even that can be nothing more then an act since a lot of them just care about themselves and are more Asexual then sexual.

A poser normally is harmless enough since he is looking for easy sex where his skills won't be questioned since he is the Dom.

Whole heartedly agree with this, well said as always. I do, however, disagree with the notion that abusers are often more asexual than sexual. Of course there are the ones that will withhold sex and those who are not really interested in sex anyway, but a great number of abusive men is actually quite sexual. Many abusers start out as wonderful and attentive lovers...it's one of the things to get you hooked. Many abusers insist on having sex on a frequent basis, and then often insist on having it in a way that their partners don't feel too comfortable with. I know a woman who's partner loves to have outdoor sex with her -- preferrably in places covered with poison ivy. A high number of abusive men has affairs...so at least in my experience, sex has a high level of significance one way or another. It's something they can use to control -- and that's what it boils down to. They control, so they win...if they lose control, welcome to hell. Anyway, I'll stop writing an epic...just wanted to add my two cents

[Moonraker]

As all others have said, agree 100% a perfect short and simple answer. I would only add that perhaps no need to differentiate a Dom from a normal guy in a normal relationship. What makes a man a good husband, boyfriend or lover. Perhaps the perception that doms are somehow a race apart from "normal" men is a misunderstanding.

[Ozme52]

As all others have said, agree 100% a perfect short and simple answer. I would only add that perhaps no need to differentiate a Dom from a normal guy in a normal relationship. What makes a man a good husband, boyfriend or lover. Perhaps the perception that doms are somehow a race apart from "normal" men is a misunderstanding.

?

[DowntownAmber]

LOL Amber... not at ya... just amused with my thoughts as I read your post.

The semantics are so subtle. Everything you said sounds good... and yet... my sub understands that everything we do is indeed for me... her submission gives her pleasure in doing... for me.

She gets by giving. Ask her though, and I have no doubt she'd tell you I was attentive to her needs and very attuned to her.

Yes. The semantics are indeed subtle.

Is is subtle, though I'm not sure it's a subtle "difference" so much as a slightly different way of saying the same thing? I agree wholeheartedly that giving pleasure is the most complete way to get pleasure. There is obviously (for a sub) great satisfaction in the doing, the serving of the Dom. Whether it be something sexual, or simply making Master dinner and bringing it to him and watching him enjoy it, I find deep fufilment in doing for him.

For this to be as satisfying as it can be, however, I feel that the both of us are responsible to be "attentive and attuned" to the other.

Thoughts? (I love the semantic back and forth, btw, as a relative newbie it forces me into considering all I think and say from completely new angles and perspectives.)

[Ozme52]

Is is subtle, though I'm not sure it's a subtle "difference" so much as a slightly different way of saying the same thing? I agree wholeheartedly that giving pleasure is the most complete way to get pleasure. There is obviously (for a sub) great satisfaction in the doing, the serving of the Dom. Whether it be something sexual, or simply making Master dinner and bringing it to him and watching him enjoy it, I find deep fufilment in doing for him.

For this to be as satisfying as it can be, however, I feel that the both of us are responsible to be "attentive and attuned" to the other.

Thoughts? (I love the semantic back and forth, btw, as a relative newbie it forces me into considering all I think and say from completely new angles and perspectives.)

Well, that would be nearly my exact definition of semantics. Exactly the same thing but a different way of saying it... but all too many discussions can get hung up on the definitions of the words.

My semantic hang-up in this conversation would be that I insist on the perspective that the D/s relationship revolves around the needs of the Dom/me. That may be because I see the pendulum swung too far the other way in all too many online-only pairings.

I guess it depends whether you think words can only describe thoughts... or if you think they can perhaps drive thoughts.

[DowntownAmber]

My semantic hang-up in this conversation would be that I insist on the perspective that the D/s relationship revolves around the needs of the Dom/me. That may be because I see the pendulum swung too far the other way in all too many online-only pairings.

I guess it depends whether you think words can only describe thoughts... or if you think they can perhaps drive thoughts.

We're on the same page as far as "semantics" go now, but I will ply you with another question if you don't mind humoring me? (I am a curious girl, which I think is half the reason one of Sir's first purchases for me was a gag... ) How do you mean, "because I see the pendulum swung too far the other way in all too many online-only pairings?" Is it just online, or do you see that in the real life relationships of others as well?

Oh, and I think words can describe AND drive.

[Ozme52]

I'll PM you Amber. Otherwise I might start a riot. LOL

[blythe spirit]

I'll PM you Amber. Otherwise I might start a riot. LOL

Get's out the tear gas.

[DowntownAmber]

Get's out the tear gas.

Why do I think this is not the first time nor will it be the last time we have to bust out the tear gas??

[Ozme52]

Lol

[UltimateMaster]

A real Dom exists to please his sub and enjoys the process. I think real Dom should be exchanged with natural Dom. When your with a sub they "feel" the dominace without saying a word. A fake is some guy trying to boss you around and a natural dom owns you with his eyes.

[Aadenn]

I'm going to chime in here, becuase I like to play devil's advocate, and because I have a problem with authority and convention.

Nothing against Rabbit, or all the people here who have lauded his post, which I think has a good heart, by the way.

The problem is that there are too many labels in kinky communities. Online and Off, kinky communities get assaulted by this game of semantics where people begin to label others as "true doms", "true subs", "wannabes", etc.

Where i'm from the cliche is to say that someone is into S&M: Stand and Model.

I find all such things to be highly pretentious and, (again, no offense Rabbit, i'm sure you're a great guy with a lot of knowledge) closed minded.

It is equally as dangerous to view oneself as being enlightened compared to others as it is to enter into something one isnt ready for. The so-called wannabe maybe just isnt intot he same kind of play you are? Who is to say that a highly sexed individual with a penchant for rough, but otherwise vanilla sex isnt kinky? Is your love of whips and floggers any more valid than his love for the humiliation and powerplay of having greedy, anger filled penetrative sex if his partner is into it also?

I despise the terms "true" anything. They are so full of bias and pretentiousness that it raises the bile in my throat.

While I think rabbit's post was well aimed, I also think that looking down our noses at the alleged wannabes says something about us too. Instead of labeling and talking down to these people as if they are 'newbs' why not come to them on a more equal footing of resepct? If someone is in this chat room or on these forums, its likely they are willing to read and learn something. Fantasy is such a huge part of sexual development that it cant be ignored.

Please consider your dealings with 'wannabes' with a little bit more respect. We were all 'wannabes' at some point.

I think Moonraker had it BANG on:

As all others have said, agree 100% a perfect short and simple answer. I would only add that perhaps no need to differentiate a Dom from a normal guy in a normal relationship. What makes a man a good husband, boyfriend or lover. Perhaps the perception that doms are somehow a race apart from "normal" men is a misunderstanding.

[cadence]

Please consider your dealings with 'wannabes' with a little bit more respect. We were all 'wannabes' at some point.

Ì think the basic premise of the original post is not that wannabes are new and inexperienced,but someone who claims to be somthing that they don't yet understand, and are unwilling to learn about, or someone who uses the Dominant personality to thier advantage.

I loathe the word true, as much as I hate using the term natural, but I think they are used to convey someone who is basically inclined to be Dominant or submissive, one who learns to utalize and embrace that part of themselves.


When I started perusing different sites I was a bit deflated by the people who had started to contact me. Not one self proclaimed Dominant wanted to help me out with the confusion of what I was trying to figure out, but wanted me to submit fully to them immediately. Most wanted a sex cam show, calling it a service to them. I had the impression that BDSM was a cover for the ultimate trolls.

There are genuine people here who are looking for someone to compliment thier own wants and needs, and then there are others who see an advantage to use a title of Dom and seek out vulnerable subs to use for thier own agenda.

I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, (I was new and very confused about everything at one time and was always shunned by others because I failed to understand myself fully), when I go to chat I am a bit offended by others who want me to roleplay, spell out my fantasies or listen to thiers. They want some easy fap material, and that is not what I want to provide.

So no one is bashing new and inexperienced people, but the ones who come here to use this place as thier own personal playground, and assume that submissives are only too eager to comply.

[Aadenn]

Cadence, I liked your post a lot It helped me gather my thoughts a litltle more.

You are very correct in differentiating between someone who is inexperienced and someone who is a troll.

That, i think, is part of what I was trying to get at. The other thing to consider is that for most new and inexperienced people, kink *IS* a fap fest at first. I mean, lets face it. We all do it because it gets our juices flowing, either physically, emotionally, or intellectually. In some fashion, kink *is* sex.

What I was trying to clarify more specifically was that often it is the more experienced and 'established' Doms in a particular community who will be the WORST trolls.

The ones who feel somehow justified in their behavior because they have been around long enough or a few people 'know their name' so to speak. Its these guys who are often the ones spouting the tenets of what it takes to be a 'true dom' and 'true slave'

I've been to play parties and there are play sluts on both sides of the power exchange, and its the doms who can be dangerous for new subs

Actions speak louder than words. Saying all the right words and speaking all the right rhetoric does not a safe, conscientious, caring dom make.

[cadence]

I understand now what you are saying Aaden, and yes I have met a few of those experienced Dominants as well.