Hot Bed Question Bible Study In Public Schools

[mkemse]

As a staunch atheist, I think religious education is very important.

1) Without extensive bible study we'll be blind to a large proportion of Western references in literature, all the way up until the 20'th century. Which would be a shame, especially to those of us with literary ambitions.

2) It's great to have education in all the worlds religions, so that people can compare them. And then I hope that people will understand that they're all equally plausible as hypothetical theories. I can't imagine anything more damaging for a persons soul than to receive education in only one religion, which will be the case if your parents are religious. ie, you'll naturally only hear their version of events.

3) Context needs to be taught. People need to do more than just interpret the Bible in today's world. They need to know what the words in the Bible meant to people in the time they where written, (which is very alien to us). This needs to be taught and plenty of expert guidance. It's pretty deep stuff. Why was the empty void, Leviathan, so terrifying? Why was it portrayed like a monster? It doesn't say in the Bible and isn't self evident.

4) I think it would be good to hear a short history of the Bible, and be informed about the large variety of Christian ideas and Bibles. It might also help to learn that the "original"/"real" Bible, is just loose pages and a collection of articles. It quite ok, according to original Christian faith to just pick and chose which of the gospels to take seriously. They should be informed about the Apocrypha. The original Christian Church is today just a little sect called Ebionites. How did they fall out of favour? They where the first.

5) I think it should be accompanied with a short philosophical introduction, so people will understand where these ideas come from. They should learn about the Unmoved Mover theory by Aristotle and learn about Thomas Aquinas on it. They should learn about Philo of Alexandria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo_of_Alexandria.
It would be good if they heard about Enuma Elish and the Babylonian myths, so they understand from which culture Judaism grew, and the sources of their myths.

It wouldn't hurt if people learned that Jesus could have been one or many Pharisees. As a Pharisee he of course only repeating the words first penned by Philo of Alexandria, and was free of any original ideas. Being taught the hypothetical theory that Jesus might just have been a run of the mill Jewish prophet for the time, and doing very ordinary prophety things. Presenting the evidence for this theory, I think can't hurt. The Christian tendency to see Jesus as a magic man, I think is very unfortunate and seems to be a hard theory to dispel.

6) Learning about religion in School doesn't violate the separation of religion and state. It's preaching it and singing psalms and stuff which would violate it. Sweden has the same constitutional law when it comes to religion, and we've got plenty of religion taught in school. There's no conflict.

I don't think education is ever bad.

I respectfully disagree with you, I am not an Athiest, how ever I do not want my Tax Payer Dollars to be used in Public Schools to FORCE my children to study and discuss the Bible and Sing Palsm if we as a Family do not follow the Bible and yes it is violation of church and State, Public Schools here are funded by boththe State and Local Governemnt, by using Pub;ic Schools to teach the Bible, using these money, it violates out Constitution which which clearly states that The Gorvernemnt herewillnot favor 1 religion over another

[TomOfSweden]

I respectfully disagree with you, I am not an Athiest, how ever I do not want my Tax Payer Dollars to be used in Public Schools to FORCE my children to study and discuss the Bible and Sing Palsm if we as a Family do not follow the Bible and yes it is violation of church and State, Public Schools here are funded by boththe State and Local Governemnt, by using Pub;ic Schools to teach the Bible, using these money, it violates out Constitution which which clearly states that The Gorvernemnt herewillnot favor 1 religion over another

But religion is a big part of the world. Lot's of people are religious. I don't see how this is any different than learning about geography, (which is another neglected subject in the states). Or what about political science, philosophy or history. How do you teach history without touching on religion? It's about communication. So is language. I don't see a difference. There's a world of difference between learning about something and having it preached to you.

I often see Americans say stuff like, "We've got a shared moral base because of our earlier shared faith in Christianity". That to me is a strong indicator that the educational system isn't working. If people don't know what makes Christian moral codes different from humanist moral codes, or Roman, they don't know why they believe what they believe. This is nothing less than intellectual poverty.

Saying a mountain isn't there because it isn't in the constitution, doesn't make the mountain go away.

[mkemse]

But religion is a big part of the world. Lot's of people are religious. I don't see how this is any different than learning about geography, (which is another neglected subject in the states). Or what about political science, philosophy or history. How do you teach history without touching on religion? It's about communication. So is language. I don't see a difference. There's a world of difference between learning about something and having it preached to you.

I often see Americans say stuff like, "We've got a shared moral base because of our earlier shared faith in Christianity". That to me is a strong indicator that the educational system isn't working. If people don't know what makes Christian moral codes different from humanist moral codes, or Roman, they don't know why they believe what they believe. This is nothing less than intellectual poverty.

Saying a mountain isn't there because it isn't in the constitution, doesn't make the mountain go away.

The Educational system in most cases does not, not work because of the cirruculm, it does not work because of the lack of quailfied teachers,
The Religious aspect has nothing to do with how well a school or it's students do,
IE: You could be the Greatest PlAYERS in History but if you do not have GODD OR GREAT COACH (ie: teacher) you will not win, a school is as successfull as the teacher make it with their teaching skills, and students wil only learn as well as they are taught by qualified teachers
You can have good student with GREAT potential but if thier Teacher is not good, they student will not learn

[TomOfSweden]

The Educational system in most cases does not, not work because of the cirruculm, it does not work because of the lack of quailfied teachers,
The Religious aspect has nothing to do with how well a school or it's students do,
IE: You could be the Greatest PlAYERS in History but if you do not have GODD OR GREAT COACH (ie: teacher) you will not win, a school is as successfull as the teacher make it with their teaching skills, and students wil only learn as well as they are taught by qualified teachers
You can have good student with GREAT potential but if thier Teacher is not good, they student will not learn

I had a religion teacher once. She was a devout New Christian loon who had moved to Sweden from the states to be part of Swedenborg's religion close to where her prophet was born. She was not even an outstanding teacher. She was pretty biased in favour of New Christianity. But all it took was her mentioning other religions and having us read the literature for it all to sink in. She "knew" the true religion. So much was obvious. You don't need to be smart or even well read to be a teacher. Just to be blessed as a pedagogue, and know a little bit more than the students.

I'm still happy I was in her class. And as always, learning in school is more about being a diligent student than being exposed to great teachers. It's allowing oneself to be exposed to information that's the hard bit. Religion is mostly quite boring, so it's good that we get forced to read it in school. At least we in Sweden are.

Not only do I know Muslims are crazy. I also know why. I've been hanging out with devout Sikhs in Bangkok, (they have a massive beautiful temple hidden in the slums there) and been to a Kali puja in Hampi, (an huge temple complex hidden in the deep jungle in India). None of that would have happened if I hadn't been forced to understand their point of view in my youth. I'm sure of it.

It is very hard to understand purely abstract, (and fantastic) concepts. It needs some guidance. How would you explain the "unmoved mover" theory to somebody who'd never heard of it.

[mkemse]

I had a religion teacher once. She was a devout New Christian loon who had moved to Sweden from the states to be part of Swedenborg's religion close to where her prophet was born. She was not even an outstanding teacher. She was pretty biased in favour of New Christianity. But all it took was her mentioning other religions and having us read the literature for it all to sink in. She "knew" the true religion. So much was obvious. You don't need to be smart or even well read to be a teacher. Just to be blessed as a pedagogue, and know a little bit more than the students.

I'm still happy I was in her class. And as always, learning in school is more about being a diligent student than being exposed to great teachers. It's allowing oneself to be exposed to information that's the hard bit. Religion is mostly quite boring, so it's good that we get forced to read it in school. At least we in Sweden are.

Not only do I know Muslims are crazy. I also know why. I've been hanging out with devout Sikhs in Bangkok, (they have a massive beautiful temple hidden in the slums there) and been to a Kali puja in Hampi, (an huge temple complex hidden in the deep jungle in India). None of that would have happened if I hadn't been forced to understand their point of view in my youth. I'm sure of it.

It is very hard to understand purely abstract, (and fantastic) concepts. It needs some guidance. How would you explain the "unmoved mover" theory to somebody who'd never heard of it.

The whole point of my original post was, DO YOU THINK THAT STUDYING THE BIBLE should be a requirement of Law In The Unite Sates in Tax Payer {ublicly Funded Schools, NO, that is why the church established Religion Schools Perocial Schools, so they can teach those students thedetails of the Bible, Making Students in a Publicly Financed Schoo at Tax Payers and Government Expsense in the UnitedStaes Violate the Seperation odf Church and State in the United States, our Contition specifly says that the Gonernment, be it local or federal will not FAVOR one religion overthe other,
Therefore Be it Studying The Bible, in Class, The Torha In Class The Kouran In Class and going through each Religious book andsinis Palms and decussing indetail what each chapter means and does, IS A VIOLATION OF THE UNITED STATED CONSTITUTION, it is not allowed under our Fedral Laws except if the School is PRIVELTY funded and operated, the Churches in the United States own and operate 1,000's of Cathlic Schools, which is where Bible study should be not in Tax Payer funded Public Schools and made mandoroty, if a personin a Public School wished to privates on their own study the Bible, on their own time, in private, in a Library at SChool, I have no issue with thatm i do when a child is FROCED to study a Relgion that they do not pratice do to their up bringing
I do not want me child in a PUBLIC TAx Payer Governemt Funde schol being told "We do not care what you religious up brining is, you will study and learn the Bible," sorry, this is wrong a fatih calls where all religions are discusssed and compared to each other but a student is NOT indoctrinated into a specific Religion, is one thing, forcing them to study a religion, in depth and studing eacg chapter of a Bbile, what each Book Means, what it says ect is simply not allowed by our Contitution they do not believieve in or follow is another thing
That is why we Have Freedom of Religion, so everyone here can decide what religion they wish to follow and pratice as they see fit without ANY government interference or our gorvernemnt saying you MUST study this religion whether you want to or not

[Thorne]

But religion is a big part of the world. Lot's of people are religious. I don't see how this is any different than learning about geography, (which is another neglected subject in the states). Or what about political science, philosophy or history. How do you teach history without touching on religion? It's about communication. So is language. I don't see a difference. There's a world of difference between learning about something and having it preached to you.

Again, I have to agree with you here, wholeheartedly. The problem in the US, as I see it, is that the vast majority of the faithful don't WANT to know about the origins of their religion. That might lead them to question whether or not their religion (NOT their faith) is right after all. And THAT is the best reason I can think of to actually TEACH such things!

I often see Americans say stuff like, "We've got a shared moral base because of our earlier shared faith in Christianity". That to me is a strong indicator that the educational system isn't working. If people don't know what makes Christian moral codes different from humanist moral codes, or Roman, they don't know why they believe what they believe. This is nothing less than intellectual poverty.
Saying a mountain isn't there because it isn't in the constitution, doesn't make the mountain go away.

This is where things have gotten out of hand over here. Those who are fervently anti-religious don't even want the CONCEPT of religion uttered in schools. In my opinion they are shooting themselves in the foot. The more we teach children about the origins and evolution of religious doctrine, about how those in charge tend to pervert the teachings of their forebears to foster their own interpretations, about how and why moral codes came about, then the less likely those children are to commit to a specific religion and become more accepting of other people's beliefs.

Instead, the public school system has become a farce. Don't teach the kids a moral code, because our moral code is based upon the ten commandments, and that's religion. And when those kids do something against that code, why, it's not their fault! Don't punish them! Blame the teachers, blame the parents, but don't blame the system! I'm just glad my own kids are finally out of it. And I managed to teach them to be good kids without the "benefit" of religion and despite the school system.

Amen!

[mkemse]

Again, I have to agree with you here, wholeheartedly. The problem in the US, as I see it, is that the vast majority of the faithful don't WANT to know about the origins of their religion. That might lead them to question whether or not their religion (NOT their faith) is right after all. And THAT is the best reason I can think of to actually TEACH such things!


This is where things have gotten out of hand over here. Those who are fervently anti-religious don't even want the CONCEPT of religion uttered in schools. In my opinion they are shooting themselves in the foot. The more we teach children about the origins and evolution of religious doctrine, about how those in charge tend to pervert the teachings of their forebears to foster their own interpretations, about how and why moral codes came about, then the less likely those children are to commit to a specific religion and become more accepting of other people's beliefs.

Instead, the public school system has become a farce. Don't teach the kids a moral code, because our moral code is based upon the ten commandments, and that's religion. And when those kids do something against that code, why, it's not their fault! Don't punish them! Blame the teachers, blame the parents, but don't blame the system! I'm just glad my own kids are finally out of it. And I managed to teach them to be good kids without the "benefit" of religion and despite the school system.

Amen!

you can teach children morals codes at home that is what parents are for

no offense meant but our moral code is NOT based on the 10 Commandments,
or not for everyone anyway,

School are terrible because the teacher that most schools hire are not qualified to teach
It is the Parents jobto teach morals, if parents want moral taught at school they should go to PRIVATE Schoos not Publiv Schools, i teach me children what I fele is right fore them, morals wise, nonoe has ever used drugs, they do not drink, they do not engagei n pre marital sex, and they are well over 18
i tough my chidrem what I felt they need to learn, i trust my schoold to teach my chidlrem how to read,write, spell, stay in good phyiscal shape, eat the right, study habbits, how hom work comes before before video games,

I od not expect nor want my school to twahc my children moral issues that is my job as a parent not their job, they can ddiscussi twiththem but it is my and my wifes decison, i supportthem, i pay fortheir educationand will ove them and supoortthem on ventrues all their lives after 12 years ofschool they will probsably neversee thier teachers again, but they will rmember the teahcer who tought them how to read for a job, how to spell for a job, how to speak correclty, how to stay in good physical sahape
Let Ptivate A religious Schools handle teaching the BIBLE, i have a very close firemd he and his wifr are very, very devoit Greeok Othodox and they told me "Public School is for teacing daily basics not for teraching and stufnig the Bbile, that iswht Private Schools were created so parents can have the scooldd that THEY psay for and the CHRUCH payts for teahc them and indoctronaye thme into thr Pible not a pyublic school teacher

and most kids thesedays that have no moral may very well come from brtoekn families, alchoholic or disfunctional families MORALS ARE WHAT A PARENT TEACHES HIS CHILD NOT WHAT MORAL THE PUBLIC SCHOOL DOES
yes ur public school are a mess, a discgrace forthe world to see, but hhat is not do to school not teaching them morals it is caused by bad behavior which is the PARENTS JOB

do you want your child in a public schol to be told by the public school, who they can and can not date, what movie they can and can not see, what they can and cannot wear daily ect no i think YOU want that job, you are teaching them that and their morals, the schools teach them everything else

btw have a wonderfull night

[TomOfSweden]

you can teach children morals codes at home that is what parents are for

That sounds great, but it isn't working. The richest country on earth, (and therefore with the most money to educate its population) has 38% believing in creationism. USA's educational system is in crisis. Probably, blaming only the lack of religious education is simplistic. But something has to explain why 38% of the population hold to a scientific theory that died in the 19'th century. Constitutions and principals are great and all, but only if they're working.