Do you believe in miracles?

[Thorne]

You know, I just thought of a way to put it. Let's say that 29 people take a test but only two pass. Just like 29 people boarded a train that crashes and only two survive. Why only two? The other people prayed the other people studied. My answer is that only the two people who understood the rule survived or passed the test. If you don't understand that 2 + 2 =4 you won't ever pass but the rule was always true and always there. If you don't understand that God governs every moment and that you are spiritual and not material then you will have to learn that lesson another way. Jesus prooved that there is no death and so the 26 who passed on did just that; they didn't die just passed on. They awoke to realize that death never touched them, that they did not get off at a station called death. Did God love them any less? No. Does your math teacher love you any less? No.

Okay, I'm going to jump in with both feet here, and the hell with the consequences.
Is it possible that only two people passed the test because the teacher (God) grades on the curve? Chances are my math teacher doesn't love me, or care how I do, as long as his statistics show he's doing a good job. (And by the way, I know my math: two survivors plus 26 who passed on makes only 28 people! WHERE'S THAT LAST ONE HIDING???)

Do you honestly believe that a God who would destroy peoples lives, or allow peoples lives to be destroyed, is worthy of any kind of adoration? A God who inflicts vile diseases upon innocent children? A God who seems to have absolutely no pity for some people who try their damndest to please him? Is it possible that you can truly believe that those people who don't do or act precisely the way YOU think they should act can not be saved?

No, a loving and merciful God, which all those preachers claim he is, wouldn't give a rip HOW we worship, or even IF we worship. He would only be concerned with how we LIVE! How we use the life he gave us. Using your math analogy, when the teacher gives you a complex problem, the good teachers don't really care HOW you get to the solution, so long as you get there. The bad teachers require you to get there in only one way, and if you don't, you fail, regardless of whether or not you got the right answer!

And as for Jesus rising from the dead, I challenge you, or anyone else for that matter, to show me positive evidence, which doesn't ultimately arise from the Bible or the teachings of his disciples, that Jesus even existed, much less rose from the dead. It's my understanding that it can't be done: there is no evidence anywhere, except in the Bible, that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible actually existed. Hell, even the Bible contradicts itself about far too many important portions of his supposed life. There is ample independent evidence that Pilate existed, and Herod, and even Caiphus, the high priest. But there is nothing independent to prove that Jesus of Nazareth was ever tried, convicted or crucified.

I would guess this is going to piss off a lot of people, but I don't care anymore. This "holier-than-thou" attitude really drives me up the wall. And it's not just Christians. There are very few, if any, religions which accept the idea that other religions can be just as right as their own. And they are all based on suppositions, stories, fables and outright lies. The world would be a whole lot better place without all those religions fighting one another.

I've got it! Let's send all the priests/ministers/rabbis/mullahs out to battle one another. And may none of them come back alive.

[wmrs2]

Okay, I'm going to jump in with both feet here, and the hell with the consequences.
Is it possible that only two people passed the test because the teacher (God) grades on the curve? Chances are my math teacher doesn't love me, or care how I do, as long as his statistics show he's doing a good job. (And by the way, I know my math: two survivors plus 26 who passed on makes only 28 people! WHERE'S THAT LAST ONE HIDING???)

Do you honestly believe that a God who would destroy peoples lives, or allow peoples lives to be destroyed, is worthy of any kind of adoration? A God who inflicts vile diseases upon innocent children? A God who seems to have absolutely no pity for some people who try their damndest to please him? Is it possible that you can truly believe that those people who don't do or act precisely the way YOU think they should act can not be saved?

No, a loving and merciful God, which all those preachers claim he is, wouldn't give a rip HOW we worship, or even IF we worship. He would only be concerned with how we LIVE! How we use the life he gave us. Using your math analogy, when the teacher gives you a complex problem, the good teachers don't really care HOW you get to the solution, so long as you get there. The bad teachers require you to get there in only one way, and if you don't, you fail, regardless of whether or not you got the right answer!

And as for Jesus rising from the dead, I challenge you, or anyone else for that matter, to show me positive evidence, which doesn't ultimately arise from the Bible or the teachings of his disciples, that Jesus even existed, much less rose from the dead. It's my understanding that it can't be done: there is no evidence anywhere, except in the Bible, that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible actually existed. Hell, even the Bible contradicts itself about far too many important portions of his supposed life. There is ample independent evidence that Pilate existed, and Herod, and even Caiphus, the high priest. But there is nothing independent to prove that Jesus of Nazareth was ever tried, convicted or crucified.

I would guess this is going to piss off a lot of people, but I don't care anymore. This "holier-than-thou" attitude really drives me up the wall. And it's not just Christians. There are very few, if any, religions which accept the idea that other religions can be just as right as their own. And they are all based on suppositions, stories, fables and outright lies. The world would be a whole lot better place without all those religions fighting one another.

I've got it! Let's send all the priests/ministers/rabbis/mullahs out to battle one another. And may none of them come back alive.

Thorne, it is a highly emotional use of logic to blame a God that does not exist for the evil that is in the world. Why not blame mankind for the evil inflected on man. I don't see God killing and bringing sickness to the world. All the evil you speak of, I see man doing it to himself.

As for the proof of God, the Christ, Western Civilization's very existence is evidence that Christ existed. If you will not accept this, nothing will convince you that Christ lived. Myself, I see Christ's mark everywhere.

Think of God as a process. If man would listen to God, observe Him, and learn to use God things would be better for all. God is like a golf swing. It takes a lot of practice to perfect it. If you would practice using God more, you would feel better about the world. (One more thing, God is a Republican.)

[Thorne]

Thorne, it is a highly emotional use of logic to blame a God that does not exist for the evil that is in the world. Why not blame mankind for the evil inflected on man. I don't see God killing and bringing sickness to the world. All the evil you speak of, I see man doing it to himself.

I do not blame God for anything, as I don't believe he does exist. My point was that IF he existed, I could still not worship him because of the things he ALLOWS to happen. And if he is the ultimate creator of all that we know then he is, in some sense, responsible. Evil could not exist without God's knowledge and acceptance.

As for the proof of God, the Christ, Western Civilization's very existence is evidence that Christ existed. If you will not accept this, nothing will convince you that Christ lived. Myself, I see Christ's mark everywhere.

Yes, this is an old argument: God exists because I KNOW he exists. Western Civilization has nothing to do with the actual existence of Christ, but rather with the existence of the CONCEPT of Christ. My question is about whether the MAN existed. Any culture which develops a religion can "prove" that their gods exist by the actions those gods supposedly take. The crops grow every year, so their must be a god/goddess of fertility; the moon floats serenely overhead and only a god/goddess could do that, ergo there is a lunar god. You can attribute anything that you don't understand or can't control to the actions or inactions of the gods.
And actually, it's Western Law, rather than Civilization, which owes so much to the teachings of the Church. Like it or not, most nations' laws are based in some measure upon the Ten Commandments. But the Greeks and Romans did far more for the advance of Civilization than the Church ever did.

Think of God as a process. If man would listen to God, observe Him, and learn to use God things would be better for all. God is like a golf swing. It takes a lot of practice to perfect it. If you would practice using God more, you would feel better about the world. (One more thing, God is a Republican.)

Personally, I think of God as a convenient fiction which man developed at a time when he needed something to explain the world around him. As for God's political leanings, I must wonder to which God you are referring. Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, is probably a Republican. Christ, the God of the New Testament, is more likely to be a Democrat.