BDSM And Feminism: Intertwined? How So?

[leo9]

feminism was originally about women fighting for the right to be equal, have the vote, have the right to speak for themselves,have equal opportunities etc well as far as im aware we have that dont we?

Except that women are still in the majority at the bottom end of the world of work, doing the shit jobs that they can't get men to do for the price, and in a minority in management that gets smaller the higher you go. If they're naturally equal, then the system is still loaded against them; you can't have it both ways.

and in relation to bdsm i can never quite understand how the two could ever possibly be connected or questioned, because women have the right to choose whether or not they wish to be submissive or Dominant and unless in an abusive r/ship and forced into submission (which is a totally seperate issue from bdsm) then they're choosing to submit of there own free will they are able to make that choice because they have the right the freedom and the confidence to do so.

Ah, these young folks...

Long, long ago, when a computer was a million-dollar toy for colleges and a mobile phone was a backpack radio, feminism was ripped apart by the issue of BDSM. Not, you understand, in the Mf sense or even Fm - in those days hard core feminists didn't have sex with men anyhow - but over whether it was politically OK for lesbians to do BDSM, or whether they were "internalising patriarchy" and should be re-educated to understand that violence and dominance were male vices shunned by properly empowered women.

There were a few holdouts still fighting the Lesbian SM Wars when I got involved in the '90s, so I know people weren't making this stuff up. If anyone's interested, "Coming to Power" by Samois is still available discussing the issues from our side, and Dworkin's various works probably give the best view of the other side.

[blythe spirit]

I am most probably the one that "hijacked" J-Go's thread a "ticky," and for that I apologize.

To answer your questions in less than a novel-sized response is near impossible. As we know feminists date back as far as the 18th century. But to me, there is a big difference between "Women's Liberation" in an era where women were to be seen and not heard, to the modern day "Feminist Movement," where a group of misandrist plotted to do away with men altogether. I am speaking of the radicals, who gave feminists the "bad name."

There were "strong" women in all eras and their names went down in history. They rebelled against patriarchy, where women had their names dirtied by men for "taking a stand." Mary Magdolene might be one such woman, who was falsely accused of being a "prostitute" by the patriachy, because of her political beliefs and for speaking her mind.

Anway, I shant go off on a tangent; however, if by definition a "feminist" is one who believes that women have the right to speak their minds, vote their political conscience, hold the same positions and earn the same wages as a man, etc., then I, too, am a feminist, along with Elenor Roosevelt, Amelia Earhart, Dorothy Parker, Helen Keller and a plethora of other strong leaders in history.

On the other hand, if it means beating men down to nothingness and obliterating them entirely, then I am not a feminist. If I have to agree that a woman is nothing but a "man's slave" if she so chooses to be a homemaker and stay-at-home mom, then I disagree wholeheartedly with their plight.

As I stated in the "other" thread, women have gained the right to go out and work 8 and 12 hours a day and then come home and cook, clean, do laundry, ready the kids for bed, etc. and still have the energy to be sexy for her man. This statement was posted half jokingly, but in part, is truth, because a lot of men have yet to catch up with the "feminist movement" and still believe that the above mentioned are "women's chores."

As was once thought by men that they did not need women for anything other than sex and to bear children, it is now fact that women do not need men...even for that.

Being a homemaker, wife, mother, used to be a noble profession, and it's been proven that a man could not afford to pay a homemaker's worth in salary. Unfortunately, it is, of course, near impossible for a man to have the luxury of a homemaker with today's ecomonomy. That's a whole other story, though.

In "fighting" for women's rights in such a radical way, I believe we, as women have given up a great deal of our right to femininity and until we stop using the word "fight" (as someone much more intelligent than I stated) we will continue to be at war.

*laughing* I probably didn't answer but one of your questions. Sorry.

[claire]

I am most probably the one that "hijacked" J-Go's thread a "ticky," and for that I apologize.

Darn it, I wanted credit for that hijack. My post was before yours.

Yes I am a feminist, in terms of equal rights. No I am not a militant feminist wanting to get rid of all men and treating women as superior. Anyone who thinks women have achieved equal rights has not looked at labor statistics that clearly show the women with the same degree of education and experience, still make less than men.

In most of the two parent families that I know of, the woman is still the primary care giver for the children and the one expected to take time off for sick children etc. Cooking and household chores seem rarely to divided equitably either. I am not saying to be equal that each person should do half of each type of chore. We all have individual preferences and talents. What I oppose is a division of labor where a woman must do a double shift. First putting in an 8 hour day for wages, then coming home and putting in an 8 hour day there. The studies I've seen show that men put in many fewer hours at home than women do.

Now maybe this is all just part of me showing my age. Maybe the younger generation does have a more equitable arrangement. I might be like the people who said Obama isn't black enough because he didn't go through the civil rights era and isn't still carrying the frustrations of being part of an underclass. Yet, I would argue, that like minorities, women still have not gained full equality. Why else would the media have talked about Hilary Clinton putting cracks in the glass ceiling?

As far as it influences my life, well it did take me a couple of decades or so to realize that being feminine did not contradict being a feminist. Now I would argue just the opposite. Embracing our femininity and the differences between men and women and valuing those differences, should be the focus of today's feminism. As far as how it effects my BDSM life, well feminism is about having equal opportunities and choices and that means I can choose to be a sub or a Dom or neither or both.

[blythe spirit]

Darn it, I wanted credit for that hijack. My post was before yours.

I will be more than happy to share the blame with you. I took the blame, cos I didn't want to point a finger...but -
hehehe.

[hopperboo]

I had to comment on these posts...I went back and re-read.

On the other hand, if it means beating men down to nothingness and obliterating them entirely, then I am not a feminist.

+1!!!

When I think of the term "feminist" I automatically think of those women who are 'extreme' about it, ball-busters and what not...which probably is not good.

p.s. Your whole post was very nice.

I will say, that in the work force I absolutely believe that women should be paid the same as men and have all the opportunities available to men. Course, if you really want to get into it deep, I also believe that all children in a two parent home should have a parent at home with them. I don't believe it should always be the mother, but I do believe that it should be a parent. Don't get all up in my face about how the majority of families can't afford that

+1.

With the majority of 'middle class' families depending on the cost of child care in the area and how many children they have it would be a really smart move for the spouse that makes less money to stay home. Both from the monetary view and from the view of having a child raise by their parents.

[AdrianaAurora]

Without Feminism, BDSM amounts to DD.

[Pearlgem]

Sorry if I'm repeating anything here.

When I was younger, I internalized what I thought was the feminist belief that signs of 'masculinity' and 'femininity' were inherently sexist, and in trying to 'defeminize' myself I think now I was deeply misguided and it made me a bit lonely. Now I'm older actually I still think most of what we consider masculine or feminine is a social construct, but since I too am a social being living in the same milieu, I reach for my lipstick...

I think I got feminism wrong when I was youthfully intense, but now I'm older I think of it more as it applies to society and not just me. Equal pay, right to choose, right to be educated, vote - of course. You don't need to be a feminist to agree with these. I would call that 'humanist' if it didn't mean something else - 'personist', perhaps. If life treats women unfairly just because they are women, it can do the same to men. Men can be just as much victims of the so-called patriarchal society as women are. Chauvinistic attitudes, male and female, have been taught to us by society's greed, selfishness and ignorance. 'One is not born a woman, [or man].one becomes one.' de Beauvoir. Much of this we can challenge, but there is a great deal yet simply to acknowledge and understand before we can hope to do anything about it.

Feminism, to me, means challenging any orthodoxy that disadvantages women as human beings. This is not the same as putting men down.

But I have to admit, I don't quite get women who claim there is no relevance in feminism or who revile it. One only has to look around the world and see the powerless, uneducated, grinding struggle that is the lot of too many girls/women. Perhaps it's perfectly legitimate and even a perverse sign of success that what women fought for on your behalf, you now feel free to dismiss, so much is it taken for granted. But I would remind you, women are struggling over the world, the system is unfairly loaded against them. I am thankful for the advantages I enjoy as a Western woman, but let's not suppose that feminism can have no greater relevance than to insist men do dishes and women break balls.

I have realised I can be feminine, feminist and submissive. It's all do to with realising your worth and supporting the worth of others.

[leo9]

When I think of the term "feminist" I automatically think of those women who are 'extreme' about it, ball-busters and what not...which probably is not good.

And when you think "Muslim", do you automatically think of crazy suicide bombers?

With the majority of 'middle class' families depending on the cost of child care in the area and how many children they have it would be a really smart move for the spouse that makes less money to stay home. Both from the monetary view and from the view of having a child raise by their parents.

Which is why, in my previous marriage, I stayed home and raised our kid. (And supervised the household slaves )

But a hundred years ago I wouldn't have had that choice, because even the most basic job I could get would have been better paid, simply by being "men's work", than one she could have got, with all her abilities. Sexism does oppress men as well as women.

[hopperboo]

I won't tell you what I think because it has nothing to do with this topic and it goes off into touching on religion leo.


btw, just a separate comment from another one of your quotes, the feminist movement did a lot of damage, as well as good. Saying women can "vote" now is one of the best things it has done, but it certainly only a tiny piece of what feminist movement gave us.

[icey]

Except that women are still in the majority at the bottom end of the world of work, doing the shit jobs that they can't get men to do for the price, and in a minority in management that gets smaller the higher you go. .

strangely enough in my family its the women with one exception that are at the higher end of the management heirachy.

Ah, these young folks....

i wish! lol but what does age have to do with anything?

in those days hard core feminists didn't have sex with men anyhow

what days were these? i had many many ''hard core'' feminist friends some of the denim dungaree doc martins 'type' and others way more butch and some very feminine, from all walks of life they were lesbian bi and straight.
were all involved in different lifestyles i knew them from when i used to go to a very well known feminist bar but none of them i ever met other than the lesbians obviously had no problem sleeping with men! and weirdly none of them were man haters lol nor did they hate or criticise non feminists!

whether it was politically OK for lesbians to do BDSM, or whether they were "internalising patriarchy" and should be re-educated to understand that violence and dominance were male vices shunned by properly empowered women.

lol id have loved to hear those conversations in the gay bars i used to frequent wow with all the old leather boys and girls (yup i said girls!) around and feminists! they wouldnt have lasted two minutes! although i am talking about the 80's and 90's what with me being so young and all

There were a few holdouts still fighting the Lesbian SM Wars when I got involved in the '90s, so I know people weren't making this stuff up.

in the early 90's practically everyone in the gay bars i ever met were D/s orientated! or had some form of interest in bdsm.
i guess coming from different eras...(im guessing you're older than me by your young folks comment?...im 38 btw) and different locations can make a huge difference to our experiences and world views.