Gorean Philosophies

[denuseri]

Yes orchid it is.

i have the advantage of having some one to direct me when it comes to posture and the like. In addition to being a "dancer" with the training it intails/I also practice my positions and movements infront of a mirror especially transitions. Weather or not ones tummy is tucked as well as other things is of course up to the individual doms delight.

I keep my back striaght or arched slightly. When i walk it is to be done not for efficiencey's sake so much as a display, short steps with slightly overt hip movements. If i run it is stiff legged when done for presentation purposes, simular to a ballerina. This disipline is of course modified when i am excersiseing or working but never fully relaxed. Even when lounging around on the couch while my owner sits in his throne (his lazyboy lol) I keep in mind his eyes are upon me.

Most girls are not aware of thier posture and have thier shoulders very relaxed and slumped foreward. My shoulders are to be rolled back, my chin slightly tucked in an erect and apealing posture.

For instance while sitting at this chair, my back is slightly arched, arms bent at the elbows, fingers poised over the keyboard, head up, sitting foreward on the seat so my back isnt resting on the chair, my knees spread and only the balls of my feet resting on the floor, with my tummy flat or slightly tucked, my chest slightly out. If my owner were to pass by and look in or is likely too, or i am just practicing my posture, this how i would be. Now in front of other people or other situations it is modified somewhat to be more "prim" and proper as the case may be

[orchidsoul]

thanks Denuseri!

And you're right about most peoples everyday posture. Not to mention it's less sexy, it's not good for the body. *off to ponder my own*

[denuseri]

The following are two quotes from one of the books about "pride" and being a kajira"

'"There is a difference' laughed Hassan, 'between the pride of a free woman and the pride of the slave girl. The pride of a free woman is the pride of a woman who feels herself to be the equal of a man.
The pride of the slave girl is the pride of the girl who knows that no other woman is the equal of herself.' " Tribesmen of Gor, page 333


'Most female slaves,' said Hassan, 'walk very proudly. They are proud of their slavery, and their mastery by men. They have learned their womanhood. It has been taught to them. In their way, though imbonded, totally, I suppose they are the truest and freest of women. They are closest, perhaps, to the essentials of the female, those of subservience to the masculine will, obedience, service and pleasure. In being most themselves, utter slave, they are most free. This is paradoxical, to be sure. Most girls, verbally, will object to slavery, but this half-hearted, pouting, ineffectual rhetoric is belied by the joy of their behavior.. No girl who has not been a slave can understand the joy of it, the profundity and freedom. The objections of girls to slavery, I have noted, are usually not objections to the institution which, in the sweet heat of their bodies, they love dearly, and fear only to lose, but to a given master. Given the proper master they are quite content. In the proper collar a woman is serene and joyful.' " Tribesmen of Gor, pages 332 - 333

One must be able to read between the lines and see what "Hassan" is saying about where the true joy freedom and pride of a kajira comes from. Many have mistaken the second passage to be misogynistic thus missing the forest for the trees.

[Ironwulf]

I just wanted to stop in and thank denuseri for continuing her excellent work. She does a great job of explaining things in ways I doubt I could ever have done.

I also would like to thank those that post to this thread as their questions and comments help us add to the understanding of what the Gorean Philosophy is all about.

While I in no way want to highjack this thread, I would like to point to another thread which might be used to gain additional insight to the world of Gor as seen by other Goreans that used to use the forum more in the past such as myself. It seems easier to point to what has already been written then to try and repost the comments again here.

Wolfscout started the thread Gor & largely the Gorean Lifestyle and while it is no longer an active thread it might provide additional worthwhile reading for those interested in learning how some of this forums gorean members have expressed themsevles on the subject in the past.

Best Wishes to all and hope to see more discussion of the lifestyle in the future. - Ironwulf

[Kuskovian]

We ourselves participated in that thread if I recall.

I do not know if it survived the move to the new server.

[goldendawn]

i have read every post in this thread and my eyes are burning! The attacks and criticisms of the books was to be expected, inevitable. i offer only one comment and find it hard to believe that after ten years it is the same comment offered then...
if you read the books with your eyes alone, you will find a story, a world, not unlike a horror flick at times; a tale of erotic fantasy and terror; a tale for Men's dreams. if you read the books with your mind and emotions, you will find the meaning of freedom; you will find the silken thread that can destroy the walls you've built up; you will find a tale for women's dreams.

When you spoke of the spiritual aspect of being kajira, you hit the nail on the head. It is not for those that want playtime, although there is plenty of that as well. A kajira's life is not one for her own pleasures although her pleasures are fulfilled. A kajira's life is from the heart, it is always, there are no "hours of the day" specified for her to be submissive, to be "kajira", it is always there. While actions may take outward form a few hours of the evening, she does not stop being kajira for the rest of the time. Whether she is owned or wandering alone, she is always kajira, though most would not know her at first glance.

Someone asked if there was a difference between being submissive and being kajira. In the books it is said "Once a kajira, always a kajira". i have heard this phrase bantied about online for years and very seldom have i heard it used in full meaning. Kajirae are submissive. If playing semantics ...no there is no difference.

When i was trained as kajira, i was warned that i would "change". i didn't know, didn't appreciate what that meant until many years later. i had changed, completely. It didn't hit me until i was out of the relationship with my Gorean Master for several years. i still walked with the awareness of a kajira; i still spoke to Men with the awareness of a kajira; i still looked in the mirror with the awareness of a kajira; i still cooked with that awareness; stood with it. i had changed and after 5 years now of being out from under Discipline; i am still kajira. The changes are subtle; they are psychological; they are soft, but they are still there. After living a nilla life for the past several years, they are still there, burning softly but burning none the less.

Is there a difference between kajira and submissives? i can't answer that. Each submissive answers the question herself. i've known submissives not knowing of Gor philosophies, to be very much like kajira, where their submission was truly at the heart of them.

Thank you for this thread and pointing me to it from the other one. i needed the reminder.

[denuseri]

Goldendawn:

Thanku so very much for your words my sister, they have reinvigorated my strength of spirit anew.

To know that there are still yet others out there that truely "get" what being kajira and Gorean is all about is a refreshing and rare occurance.

with deepest respect
hugs and kissess
denuseri

[~blue~]

A book contains a story. And a story can be enjoyable to many, and unenjoyable to the same amount of people. Some may make a stand against it, making rallies to bar its existance, while others stand for it, creating societies of people who follow aspects of that story.

To gain happiness from a story can be a good thing. To try and make happiness from it is a completely different ideal. And to take a life from a story is not always a good idea. You make your own life, that shouldnt involve living others.



Very good subject matter and debate in the thread though.

[denuseri]

As Goldendawn so eloquently stated it is the philosophy between the lines of the books that we are speaking about.

The only "story" we live by is the one in our own hearts.

The only "Life" that we make is or own.

[Thorne]

To gain happiness from a story can be a good thing. To try and make happiness from it is a completely different ideal. And to take a life from a story is not always a good idea.

Many followers of the Bible or the Koran would argue with you there.

We all build our lives on what we learn, whether from family, friends, religious leaders, or books. One of the great parts about the freedom we have is that we can pick and choose those philosophies which resonate within us, discarding those which offend us. Whether we realize it or not, we do this all our lives.

Where we run into problems is choosing only one source of inspiration, rather than many sources. By turning away from source of wisdom which may not exactly agree with that one source, we take the first steps on the road to fanaticism.

In the context of this discussion, I am quite moved by the statements of denuseri and goldendawn, among others. I don't claim to understand their reasons for embracing this philosophy, which seems somewhat alien to me, but I can at least understand that they are following their own hearts in this matter.

[damyanti]

A book contains a story. And a story can be enjoyable to many, and unenjoyable to the same amount of people. Some may make a stand against it, making rallies to bar its existance, while others stand for it, creating societies of people who follow aspects of that story.

To gain happiness from a story can be a good thing. To try and make happiness from it is a completely different ideal. And to take a life from a story is not always a good idea. You make your own life, that shouldnt involve living others.



Very good subject matter and debate in the thread though.

As Goldendawn so eloquently stated it is the philosophy between the lines of the books that we are speaking about.

The only "story" we live by is the one in our own hearts.

The only "Life" that we make is or own.

And the philosophy between the lines of the books comes from your heart! Perhaps its because I like books so much, but I dont see nothing wrong with that.


(I already stated my opinion on the thread, so I am not going to repeat it.)
The reason I am posting again (no, I am not disagreeing with anyone, lol), is because the last few posts reminded me of some things. (Yes, I know the value of human life and I am not trying to diminsh that), but what always strikes me as the most barbaric of crimes is when people distroy history, monuments and most of all, burn (enemy) books....probably because those things represent an attempt to destroy the meaning, the soul and the heart of the people.

I hope one day I can truly get at heart, not just head, the words you and Goldendawn speak. And whether, at that time, I choose to call myself kajira, submissive or flying monkey, it will be nobody elses business.

[damyanti]

This was written by Marcus of Ar.
http://www.silkandsteel.com/3k/marcphil.htm

What do you think?


Throughout the 25 books which make up the chronicles of the Counter-Earth, certain principles and beliefs are often repeated, which the narrator proclaims are widely held by Goreans in general. I have selected several of these, the principles which in my opinion seem to be the foundation for the basic Gorean system of ethics:

1) Be WHAT you are: Similar in many respects to a tenet set forth by the Earth philosopher Marcus Aurelius; namely that each thing which exists possesses its own unique singularity. When a thing attempts to be something it is not, problems arise. A man is a man; a woman is a woman; a tree is a tree; a flower is a flower. To the Gorean mind, it is foolish for anything to assume the properties of another thing.Therefore, each person is required to understand his or her basic nature, and to abide by it. According to such a tenet, therefore, it is assumed that there are needs, desires and activities which are specifically masculine, and those which are specifically feminine. Though the lines may blur at times, when all things are reduced to their basic forms, each thing is appreciated and celebrated for its own uniqueness, and is not forced to assume properties of another, different, thing.


2) Be WHO you are: This tenet applies in regard to a person's existence in society and the caste structure. It takes into account the fact that everyone possesses certain talents and abilities from birth, regardless of their familial caste. Therefore, upon Gor a person is free to alter or raise his or her caste on the basis of ability, though it is rarely done, since most Goreans value their familial caste as a badge of their clan identity. But the above principle also applies in regard to freedom and slavery. To the Gorean mindset, each person is born with a desire for freedom, and an innate slave nature. A person's proper place in society is dependant upon how these two factors are balanced within the personality of that particular Gorean. Most Goreans believe that anyone who has within them a burning desire to exist free of strictures will not suffer slavery, dying rather than submitting to bonditude. A person who has within them a strong slave nature, the desire to be controlled and commanded, will eventually succumb to their inner need to serve others, free of all responsibility to things other than themselves and their service.


3) Obey the Natural Order of things: This tenet applies to the way Goreans view the world around them. They feel it is futile to attempt to disregard the effect of hundreds of generations of evolution. If a creature is naturally genetically equipped to fulfill a specific function in relation to another, then it is considered fitting and proper that such a creature be allowed to do so, even when such natural predisposition might result in stratification. In regards to human beings, it is understood that stronger, more intelligent, and more ambitious human beings will naturally assume a higher social strata in regards to their interaction with the less strong, less intelligent, and less ambitious. In regard to male/female sexual relations, it is therefore the right of the male, who is genetically predisposed for physical dominance, to control the physical aspects of his relationship to the female. In return, he is expected to behave as the hunter/provider, seeing to the protection of the female to insure the propagation of the race. Females, meanwhile, who tend to be smaller and less physically powerful, are expected to respect the biological truths of their lesser physical stature, while making the most of their genetic predisposition to serve and aid the male, and utilizing their superior emotional empathy and long-term endurance to do so while surviving and advancing the species. Not all women, therefore, are slaves, though the female sex is often referred to by males as "the slave sex." Gorean females are simply expected to respect and understand that they are less able in areas requiring raw physical strength than their male counterparts, and adjust their behavior accordingly. When one considers the fact that personal combat to the death is a daily occurrence throughout Gor, such behavior among Gorean women is a wise practice to say the least.


4) Advancement of the Strong: This tenet is similar to that described above; it simply refers to the common Gorean belief that strength, whether it is physical strength, mental strength, or strength of will, should be celebrated and set forth as an example. In this way the Gorean feels he advances the human race, adding to its chances for survival and continued existence.


5) Diminishment of the Causes of Weakness: This principle acts as the inverse to the tenet described above. In order that the human species may grow stronger, it is necessary that the weaker and lesser adaptive elements of Gorean society be carefully controlled and encouraged to grow in strength and adaptability. Anti-social elements are to be excised from society through restriction of citizenship, or confined and rehabilitated. Warfare and enforced captivity are two methods by which this last end is accomplished upon the surface of the planet Gor.


6) Do what you will: This is one of the key principles to Gorean philosophy; basically, it means that every Gorean is expected to strive within the limits of his or her existence to achieve self-fulfillment and lasting happiness. A Warrior may draw his sword and lead an army to conquer a city, if he is strong enough and fit enough to do so. A free woman may attempt to contract a profitable companionship or to build a financial empire, if she is strong enough and clever enough. Even a slave is expected to seek her deepest self-fulfillment within the bonds of her Master's chains. In such a manner, each Gorean is expected to strive and achieve something for the collective
Gorean society, and struggle to attain perfection within the structure of that society. To the Gorean mind, there are always possibilities for advancement no matter what the situation.


7) Responsibility for One's Actions: This tenet is based upon the Gorean concept of basic "cause and effect." It is through the practice of this principle that the rest of the tenets listed above make sense, and function. This is the belief that everyone, no matter how great or humble, chooses the course of his or her destiny. When a warrior
draws his sword, he can expect to suffer the consequences. When a Gorean submits to the bonds of slavery, he or she is expected to acknowledge and accept what occurs afterward. In such a way every choice made by every single Gorean is inextricably bound together with the choices of his or her fellow Goreans in a great interlinking web of cause and effect, a massive net of fate which moves the race forward into the future like an unstoppable juggernaut. Do whatever you want to, but expect it to effect you, either for good or ill. You are responsible for yourself.

Excuses are futile and no one wants to hear them anyway. If you screw up, take your medicine, deal with the situation and move on to the next thing. The basic rules and maxims of the various caste codes and the fundamental principles of Gorean interaction seem to be based mostly upon this concept; this, in effect, is the explanation for
Gorean "cruelty." Goreans are not cruel, they are practical. "That which does not kill them makes them stronger," to paraphrase from Nietzsche. If you wear the collar of a slave, look like a slave, act like a slave, and do not either fight your way to freedom or die in the attempt, then you must really be one. In any case, you most probably
were free at one point... so what happened? You either needed to be a slave, were too weak to stay free, or screwed up really badly somewhere along the way. Whatever the case, deal with it. Life is not fair, and most Goreans are far to practical to try to make it so. Life sucks. If you get hit on the head, don't waste time crying about it... accept it and next time wear a helmet.


8) Stratification by Natural Process: Superior strength-- be it strength of will, strength of body, or strength of mind-- will tend naturally to manifest itself among ordered human groupings. Even particulars such as sexual gender do not universally define how matters of strength are involved in the stratification process. Anyone who is stronger will naturally assume a position of dominance, be it mental or physical, over those weaker or less willing to match themselves in human dominance struggles. Therefore, it is categorically incorrect to assign presumed dominance or blanket superiority over anyone, or any one grouping, within the human condition, since these matters tend to be somewhat situational. While human beings are defined to a great extent by their sex, there is no "dominance gene" nor is there any "submission gene." There are only combinations of heritable genes, each of which will render the individual more prone to certain behaviors than others. These genetic leanings can be circumvented, though typically the act of doing so is costly, both to the individual involved and to the system in which he or she functions.

The final tenet, listed above, has only one interpretation: if anyone, be they male or female, possesses the ability to dominate others, he or she will naturally tend to do so when the opportunity presents itself, even against his or her preexistent genetic propensities. It is when the dominance factor clashes with the biologically engrained sexual selection pressures, and circumvents preprogrammed sexual-based survival behaviors, that the human being becomes, to paraphrase Norman, "a mass of conflicting drives and emotions, more prone to heightened mental stress, physical illness, psychological disease and a substantially shortened lifespan."

Gorean philosophy is, in many cases, a zero-sum equation. A Gorean must look within himself for the strength to contain his emotions, so that he may see with objectivity what is needed and required to bolster the Gorean philosophies and maintain his honor through positive action.

This, then, is my perception of basic Gorean philosophy. It may not seem fair to you, or perhaps even make much sense from your particular point of view, but I doubt most Goreans care. They have little time for debate, as they are too busy living.

To paraphrase the words of a well known Gorean author: An Earthling might very well examine the principles of Gorean philosophy and ask the question: "Why so hard?"

A Gorean would probably shrug, examine the principles of modern Earth philosophy, and answer with the question: "Why so soft?"


p.s. I hope you boys appreciate how hard it was for me to resist to paint this whole thing pink, but I didnt, for your reading conveniance, .

[goldendawn]

i didn't realize silkandsteel was still around, it was one of the websites that educated me about Gor.

[denuseri]

Goldendawn:

Honest to goodness I havent ever been to or heard of silkandsteel, but other than a brief stint on alt.com a few years ago i had rarely if ever went online up till last october.

It was rather funny when I first got here I didnt know what an "online" gorean even was and i was quite offended when i found out. lol.

Damyanti:

As for the post you quoted from Marcus of Ar, at first glance it sounds right on target, alltough I would have to defer to my husband as he is much more knowledgeable than I on this subject.

I have only read the whole series once.

He has studdied it since he was 12 years old. My tutelage in Gorean beliefs as they apply here on earth is primaraly derived from his verbal instruction.

and ps....i love pink lol

[damyanti]

[B][I][COLOR="Red"]
Damyanti:

As for the post you quoted from Marcus of Ar, at first glance it sounds right on target, alltough I would have to defer to my husband as he is much more knowledgeable than I on this subject.

I have only read the whole series once.

He has studdied it since he was 12 years old. My tutelage in Gorean beliefs as they apply here on earth is primaraly derived from his verbal instruction.

and ps....i love pink lol

I love pink too, but boys complained it isnt good for essays. And we all know how good and obedient I am....lmao.

I posted the extract here, beacuse I found it interesting. And like I said its what I thought this thread was meant to be about, discussing Gorean philosophies, not whether or not they have a right to exist and whether or not books are good or bad, .

So I hoped to bring the thread back on treck, and I am honestly interested what people here have to say about it. Its an interesting topic. Sorry if I overstepped.

[orchidsoul]

I continue to love this thread.

Goldendawn- your words are absolutely beautiful. We can all only wish to find our most inner peace.

Denuseri- you continue to show your soul and pride. Always with meaning behind your words. It doesn't matter necessarily the vocabulary, or specific beliefs that I may follow because some of these exerpts (like the one below) if I change a few words to more familiar terms... are very relative to my life as well. In fact, there's something so empowering about this quote. It instills confidence and the desire to strive regardless of what we strive for.

'"There is a difference' laughed Hassan, 'between the pride of a free woman and the pride of the slave girl. The pride of a free woman is the pride of a woman who feels herself to be the equal of a man.
The pride of the slave girl is the pride of the girl who knows that no other woman is the equal of herself.' " Tribesmen of Gor, page 333

Damyanti- That's a really interesting excerpt. Most concepts within aren't very foreign at all (regardless if people subscribe to natural order and selection) and in fact, some are beneficial reminders of the importance of being true to ourselves- again, regardless of that direction.

And so I'm learning that as I've taken many lessons out of many books whether religious, fictitious, or historical, so too am I now taking lessons out of Gor books (truly, honestly something I never thought I'd say-no offense). As with any exerpt, it's how we interpret and shape these lessons to make sense for our selves.

You've all really shown me a different side than my preconceived notions of Gorean practices. Thank you.

[goldendawn]

[QUOTE=denuseri;725735]Goldendawn:

Honest to goodness I havent ever been to or heard of silkandsteel, but other than a brief stint on alt.com a few years ago i had rarely if ever went online up till last october.

It was rather funny when I first got here I didnt know what an "online" gorean even was and i was quite offended when i found out. lol.

When i first came online, more years ago than i care to count (lol), i didn't know what bdsm was ...period. i'd been introduced to it in practice by past boyfriends who didn't bother to share with me their "long term intentions". It wasn't until i was about 25 that i found a name, a label, for what i had become...a submissive. Later still before i found the freedom of a kajira.

i did begin my actual studies online but took it further to real life when online became unfulfilling. There comes a time when you feel like you'll crawl out of your skin if you don't take action.

my first attempt at a real life live in D/s relationship with consent was very loving and satisfying and my heart ached when it ended. The void was back. My second attempt with a Dom, was satisfying until i discovered the lies, He was married. My third attempt as a live in real time kajira, was satisfying and fulfilling emotionally, if not physically, until i discovered my tpe relationship left me $30,000 in debt and i was living in fear of being "sold" to one of His friends. i gave wholly of myself and perfected my being so in depth, i was blind sided by His betrayal.

Experience is the reason i left my lifestyle for many years. To give of yourself so completely with so much trust, as is necessary of a kajira living in today's world, well...the fall was a hard one.

This is the reason i stress being cautious. To be trained as kajira, is to learn to give of yourself freely, without reservation. It does take time before the switch clicks, but once it does, you can never go back. The Gor philosophies, lifestyle if you will, does not differ much from other lifestyle elements of TPE, save for one thing...you. My Gor Master took His time with me, over 2 years. Some predators are patient.

While it is said that this can happen in any relationship, which it can, it is especially "easy" if you will, once a girl clicks to kajira.

i now shy away from being kajira because of it. It doesn't change who i am, and i find myself slipping into the mindset at the oddest times, especially when in the presence of a strong Man or a strong Woman for that matter. It just happens, even though i'm stronger than either....inside.

This life can be beautiful and while i was immersed in my ignorance, i bloomed in my freedom. i became "perfection" if only for a short time. i miss that deeply.

This life can also be devastating to those in the wrong mind set, for those who have emotional problems, for those with self esteem issues, for those who do not love themselves the way no other can love them. i've seen women brought to the brink of suicide and sadly beyond because they could not see that their perfection was inside of them, not outside. They didn't understand the nuances of their femininity. Gor will either free you or destroy you, it's as simple as that, and you find that living in the now or in the books. You find a Gor "Master" who is not true and you walk an edge. You find one who holds Truth, and you will bloom.

[denuseri]

"Do not ask the stones or the trees how to live , they can not tell you ; they do not have tongues, do not ask the wise man how to live for, if he knows, he will know he cannot tell you; if you would learn how to live, do not ask the question, its answer is not in the question but in the answer, which is not in words; do not ask how to live, but, instead, proceed to do so."
Marauders of Gor - Page 9

Goldendawn: My own bad time happened amazingly before I embraced my inner kajira, since then i have found real strength.

I would have to say that weather or not one truely embraces Gorean philosophies, that there are many who prey on submissives, I am if anything less likely to fall those types of people now.

Without truth honor and love any relationship is dommed; Gorean or otherwise.

[AdrianaAurora]

I posted the extract here, beacuse I found it interesting. And like I said its what I thought this thread was meant to be about, discussing Gorean philosophies, not whether or not they have a right to exist and whether or not books are good or bad, .

Not in favor of burning books myself, but comparing Gor to Bible is a bit of a stretch. The Bible is a religious book, meant to be a moral guideline (on Earth).
Gor series is a work of fiction, it was never meant to be taken as something more. There is no Gor.

I mean no disrespect, sentiments of those who consider themselves Goreans are very real. And very valid. But so are moral principals of those whom we call Trekkies. Its all very romantic - Doesn't change the fact, that Qo'noS doesn't exist, that Gor doesn't exist - and no matter how many times you call yourself Gorean, you are not one. When was the last time you were on a Space Ship?

[denuseri]

"In ancient Attica it is said there was a giant, Procrustes. He would seize upon travelers and tie them upon an iron bed. If the traveler was too short for the bed, he would disjoint and break their bodies until they fitted it; if they were too long for the bed, he would cut their feet from them, until they, again, fitted the bed. Perhaps the bed of Procrustes is the truth and men must be broken or cut to pieces that they may fit it. On the other hand, clearly there is an alternative, although Procrustes seemed not to have heard of it. The bed could be made to fit the guest. Is the bed to conform to the guest, or the guest to conform to the bed. From my own point of view, I would prefer a bed which considered the nature of human beings. I would make the human being the measure by which I judged the value of the beds. I see little of profit in making the bed the measure of the human being, and requiring that we remake, if by torture and mutilation, the human being until it fits the bed. Besides, we cannot remake the human being to fit the bed, truly. We do not make new human beings or better human beings by this method. All we make by that method is broken or mutilated human beings."
Rogue of Gor - Page 107


<<<is wondering who would compare the Gor series to the bible and why they would, unless they are trying to say that we Goreans are somehow religious?

As for what the books were ment for:

Norman allready expressed his views on the phenomenon that developed in response to his books, i took the liberty of posting his letter earlier in the thread. If you would like I can repost it again for clarity's sake?

I seriously doubt you personally know what the author of any work is truely thinking when they write it unless they themselves tell you. Those who practice literaly analyasis may like to think they know , but infering from a text is fraught with the cold fact that the analyist cannot read the authors mind and many authors indeed dont just sit down and write thier little heart literally out; despite what overly romantic english teachers may wish to think.

I believe most people take what philosophy and moral ideals from where they find them as opposed to only seeking ethical guildence from the narrow confines of those "books"that are labeled or defined by some as being for that purpose.

Respectfully made or not: To say one should only get thier knowledge from "approved" (by who you?) scources is rather indicative of a feeble attempt at censorship or a not so vieled jibe at the people who have chosen to find knowledge where they will as opposed to where others say they should. Makes me think about the Council of Nicene and how a third of the different Christian sects at the time were told: "belive it this way or else."

I understand this may not have been your intention Adriana though I do sence a certian hostility in the force (best yoda voice i could muster)

Saying I am Gorean is no different than my saying I am a Epicurian, or a Stoic, or a Machialvellian, or a Trekker (the hardcore ones hate the term trekkie btw)or a Trancendentalist (which i am btw also a trancendentalist as well as a Nietchian),So when I say I am a Gorean I am a Gorean and nothing you try to say otherwise can take that from me no matter how much you may wish it too..

Plato's Republic may not have phisically existed, but plenty of people believed in it's principles and still do.

In less of course it is your intention to take it out of context and imply that by saying that those calling themselves Goreans are saying its the same as being a Christian or a buddist? (smh) Which is it I wonder? If it is that way then i am in a quandary as my religion is Bahai, and my philosophy is composed from many scources, gor being the most relevant one to this discussion.

If that were the case I would be preaching about whorsehiping the dieities mentioned in the Gor books wouldnt I??? I mean wouldnt I be saying somthing about the PriestKings and how they will fix all our woes here on earth ? Spouting out on street corners how its Gor not God who is coming for the apocolypse? I would hope you were above such tactics.

The obvious reason I am talking about Gor instead of Star Wars or Star Trek (both of which expouse some also buetiful philosophies) is becuase they dont deal with D/s or M/s or bdsm the Gor does(well Return of the Jedi might arguably alude to bdsm perhaps with the Prinsess Leia slave girl scene lol).



As for the spaceship jibe its not even worth responding to seriously and goes to show what kind of discrimination Goreans have to put up with so in a way I should thanku for personifing it... as it gives me an oppertunity to show everyone of one type of peer pressure we put up with on a daily basis.


Gor has a following of vannila as well as bdsm practicioners that have adopted the principles expoused in the books for thier own use.

Where ever there be people who follow the virtue eithics expoused by Norman in the Gor books...

...then there be Goreans.


We are here, we exist and we are not going to disapear just becuase some people choose to discriminate against us or twist what we stand for into lies, or otherwise try to demonize or diminish our philosophy.

[AdrianaAurora]

You sure have an ability to read into things I have not said or thought. And I wasn't speaking about philosophies or that Gor books are bad or demonizing anything. I quite like the books, they make for a nice masturbatory fantasy and as with all books we pick and choose what we take from them in spiritual/philosophy sense. That said, while he does make some nice catch phrases, all in all books philosophy is of the simplistic "fast food" kind. And its by no mean unique, I have hundreds of bodice rippers whose "philosophy" is just as "substantial" and written on similar "principles", some even date long before Norman came along.

"Its all very romantic - Doesn't change the fact, that Qo'noS doesn't exist, that Gor doesn't exist - and no matter how many times you call yourself Gorean, you are not one," means that you are not an inhabitant of Gor and that to try to live out the fantasy literally is impossible and here, on Earth, ends badly. Like it happened to Goldendawn. If Gor existed, if her master was Gorean - it never would have happened on Gor.

Everytime, in human history, that someone tried to recreate some kind of Utopia, it never worked - because we are humans.

Kajira is supposed to give all of herself in a way its impossible to afford to do so here on Earth. To speak in "pink" terms to girls about it - is setting them up for abuse. You have to teach them caution! Why? Because their Masters are not Goreans, but men of Earth.

My husband spent considerable part of His life in China. He speaks several of Chinese languages, our house is in good part decorated in "Chinese" style, He subscribes to Chinese philosophy - but He is not Chinese.

When I see people dress up, give themselves "titles" such as Ubar or subscribe to some "cool" ideology. I have nothing against it, neither do I wish to make it stop exist. But when they wake up Monday morning and go back to their day job, makes me, .

Subscribing to "pick and choose" parts of Books philosophy does not make one Gorean. That is not the same as saying that those principles are wrong. But I do get it why some earlier posters had a problem and seen it as an attempt of literal application of Gorean attitude toward women into reality on Earth.

You are not the only "Gorean". Just look at the Internet and all that is out there. They are no less "Gorean" than you. In fact you seem to be rather unique, or in a small group in your interpretation - so when I read what the majority says, it just makes me and want to ask them - yeah, kajira when was the last time you stood on the block or walked naked down the street dressed into silks or addressed all free men as master?


The main purpose of slave garments, of course, is not particularly to clothe the girl, for she need not even be clothed, as she is an animal, but to, as I have suggested, "set her off."
Guardsman of Gor, Page 108

Slave girls, on Gor, address all free men as master, though, of course, only one such would be her true master.
Nomads of Gor, page 60

Perhaps it should be added that the Gorean Master, though often strict, is seldom cruel. The girl knows, if she pleases him, her lot will be an easy one. She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty, for the psychological environment that tends to breed these diseases is largely absent from Gor. This does not mean that she will not expect to be beaten if she disobeys, or fails to please her Master. On the other hand, it is not to unusual a set of compartments on Gor where the Master in effect, willingly wears the collar, and his lovely slave, by the practice of the delightful wiles of her sex, with scandalous success wheedles her way triumphantly from the satisfaction of one whim to the next.
Outlaw of Gor, page 53-54

[Kuskovian]

Back we go again to the misconseptions.

"You sure have an ability to read into things I have not said or thought. "

Then why did you say them I wonder?

Why do you say things like the philosophy in question is of the fast food variety? If it is not your intention to belittle it? I suspect the truth behind your motivations speaks far more to some other need.

I don't recall anywhere us saying that it is a fantasy life we are professing to live. Nor have we professed any utopian standards.

We do teach caution. A great deal of it.

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=15730


"My husband spent considerable part of His life in China. He speaks several of Chinese languages, our house is in good part decorated in "Chinese" style, He subscribes to Chinese philosophy - but He is not Chinese"

Perhaps not but he could be a Taoist or a Buddist, I see you failed to read my pets words before .

"Saying I am Gorean is no different than my saying I am a Epicurian, or a Stoic, or a Machialvellian,"

The terminology is not dependent upon birth in the sence that we are speaking of.

"When I see people dress up, give themselves "titles" such as Ubar or subscribe to some "cool" ideology. I have nothing against it, neither do I wish to make it stop exist. But when they wake up Monday morning and go back to their day job, makes me,."

Another not so vieled attempt to infer something derogatory I take it? You presume much if you presume this about us.

Fortunately you are not the final authority on who is Gorean and who is not.

The main purpose of slave garments, of course, is not particularly to clothe the girl, for she need not even be clothed, as she is an animal, but to, as I have suggested, "set her off."
Guardsman of Gor, Page 108

This quote applies quite nicely in the hypothetical setting of Norman's books, but has little basis in real life here on earth outside of clothing having the dual role of function in survival as well as asthetics.

Slave girls, on Gor address all free men as master, though, of course, only one such would be her true master.
Nomads of Gor, page 60



I guess you failed to see that part.

"Perhaps it should be added that the Gorean Master, though often strict, is seldom cruel. The girl knows, if she pleases him, her lot will be an easy one. She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty, for the psychological environment that tends to breed these diseases is largely absent from Gor. This does not mean that she will not expect to be beaten if she disobeys, or fails to please her Master. The part above is correct for any healthy D/s relationship
On the other hand, it is not to unusual a set of compartments on Gor where the Master in effect, willingly wears the collar, and his lovely slave, by the practice of the delightful wiles of her sex, with scandalous success wheedles her way triumphantly from the satisfaction of one whim to the next." If you futher read the text on this part he is speaking of what happens when a man is weak with his girl.
Outlaw of Gor, page 53-54

As such is the case in any relationship. The danger following Gorean principles isnt in the principles, it is in the misinterpetation of how they are to be followed if at all. That is why we like all people absorb what is aplicable to our own lives. We live on earth not gor, so we chose those things that can be condusive to a life on earth. If a man truely does follow these ways he wont be sadistic or wanton in his cruelty. He will instead seek to cultivate his rare prizes submission with the greatest of care.

[Torq]

OK,,ALLLLL

I see its that time again for my "FAIR WARNING"

Please if you wish to comment in this thread make 100% sure you,,,,,,

STAY ON TOPIC

There will be NO name calling or direct comments to or about one-another,,,,

ALLLL Opinions welcome ABOUT THE TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First and Final Warning PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Be Well

T

[Ragoczy]

As I continue to read this thread and the negative comments and criticisms, I find myself regularly asking: "Who cares? What difference does that make?"

I think this is because it was fairly self-evident to me from the start that we aren't talking about a single "Gorean" philosophy -- there's no Pope of Gor setting doctrine and issuing edicts -- we're talking about how Kuskovian and Denuseri have adapted the base ideas to their lives. Just as thousands (tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands (?)) of others have -- each, group or individual, in different ways. In my opinion, it's really Kuskodenuserigorean Philosophy that they're trying to relate.

No, they don't call it that, but neither does the follower of any philosophy preface every comment they make about it with "in my interpretation of". Isn't that somewhat obvious?

So from that perspective, I simply don't understand some of the criticisms offered.

What difference does it make that source of Gor is fiction?

One of my favorite books is Jonathan Livingston Seagull. I take to heart the philosophy that we, each of us, has the potential for greatness within if we apply ourselves and persevere. I do not, however, believe in talking seagulls who break the sound barrier; I accept the reality that seagulls are flying rats. It doesn't make the philosophy any less relevant or meaningful to me.

What difference does it make that Norman may or may not be misogynistic or insane?

Volkswagen was Hitler's idea. Sometimes good ideas come from crazy people. Further, I'm really impressed with those who can diagnose mental illness based on an individual's fictional writings.

What difference does it make that there are some who apply Gorean aspects to their lifestyles in ways you consider dangerous?

Some "Christians" picket military funerals claiming that every soldier's death is God's punishment on America for tolerating homosexuality -- that doesn't negate the actions of the Southern Baptists who show up at natural disasters with their mobile kitchens to feed those in need.

Within BDSM itself, there are innumerable instances of individuals using the trappings and slogans we accept in order to lure the unsuspecting into dangerous or deadly situations. We don't preface every discussion with reference to them, we don't qualify every reference to "safe, sane, consensual" or RACK with "but they might not mean it and could be dangerous". So why is there so much talk about the dangers here?

What difference does it make if the writing's bad?

I tried reading the Gor books once -- I stopped, because I didn't like the writing style. That's a personal thing about what I choose to do for entertainment, but what on earth does it have to do with how Kuskovian and Denuseri apply the ideas presented their to their own lives?

What difference does it make that "we're not on Gor"?

<sarcasm>Well, duh. </sarcasm>

Like it or not, a significant basis for the BDSM lifestyle is fantasy. We may take it seriously, we may take it as far as we can, but "slave" isn't real in the strict, literal definition of the word -- a literal "slave" can't pick up the phone, dial 911 and get out of it; a literal "slave" can't end the relationship by choice. So criticism on the basis of fantasy of those who chose to live by philosophies of Gor are somewhat ridiculous -- especially because those espousing their beliefs here don't claim to be living on Gor, they claim to be living by philosophies they've adapted to their lives here.

If anything, they seem to have created a more "real", less "fantasy", lifestyle than many in the BDSM community.

Does it really matter that they call themselves "Gorean"?

No, they're not from Gor. Do they claim to be? "Gorean" doesn't have to mean "from Gor", it can also mean "a follower of that philosophy". I'd think the word "philosophy" in the thread title would make that clear. From what I've read of their postings, it's also clear that they don't pretend something on the weekend and then change for work on Monday -- they've created a lifestyle that works for them interacting with other "Goreans" (sans any spaceships) and with traditional society. That adaption doesn't mean they take their philosophy any less seriously, simply that they're not imposing it on others.

They've created a world-view based on the writings about Gor -- that does make them "Goreans", just as creating a world-view based on the writings of Christ makes one a Christian. Yes, I'm aware Gor isn't a religion, the comparison is still valid.

Okay, fine, call it Kuskodenuserigoreanism, if you must -- but the base is "Gorean", just as Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic all roll up to Christian. There's typically no need to be that specific.

What difference does it make that there are crazies who call themselves "Goreans"?

BDSM in general has plenty of crazies -- does that make the traditional society that condemns all of us right to do so? The crazies don't have a lot to do with Kuskodenuserigoreanism -- unless you think the two of them are nuts -- so why is it any more relevant to this discussion than the "regular" BDSM crazies are to every discussion here?

[denuseri]

Thank you so much for your kind and insightful words Ragoczy.

[Kuskovian]

Yes Ragoczy, you have found the meat of it quite well.

For that I thank you.

[Thorne]

Ragoczy
At last, a well written, sane, rational explanation which is not offensive to anyone. Well done!

But I'll bet you're going to be castigated here!

[Torq]

doubtful,, very doubtful

T

[goldendawn]

The purpose of this thread is to initiate a discussion on Gorean philosophies as well as educate the Gor curious as to what it is that we who identify with Gor are all about. I can assure you it's not all about playing Conan the Barbarian on second life lol.

denuseri stated the purpose clearly in her initial posting.

As far as the mentioning of some dangers involved with the lifestyle and that it has no place in discussion here...i've to say this...it is part of educating the Gor curious. Just as if speaking with a friend who is curious about the BDSM lifestyle...one would not only speak of the good but of the danger involved as well, in order to educate and provide as much information as needed to give the friend a chance at staying safe and finding a safe, sane and consentual relationship, be it based on Gorean Philosophy or not. i would not send my sister into the lifestyle without making sure she hears some of the pitfalls to avoid.

For those who have been lifestyle a long while and have gotten their feet wet, so to speak, the warnings can be an irritation as they are spouted left right and center each way we turn. But... to those that may not have stepped in the puddle yet...warnings may prevent another abuse from happening that would further the misconception that those who follow Gorean philosophy are all crazies.

i was under the impression that this thread is for discussion about Gorean Philosophy from those who have lived it, are curious about it or are living it currently. While Master Kuskovian and His denuseri began this thread with their own insights, it doesn't say in the initial post that this thread is limited to their specific practice of it.

No two practice BDSM exactly the same way just as no two practice Gorean philosophy exactly the same way. While i personally may choose a balance of my own, i would not be so arrogant as to say anothers balance is wrong. Who knows? In time, i may change my own balance to incorporate some of their practices that i once was foolish enough to condemn.

Gorean Interpretations are widespread. There is no narrow window that makes one practice right while another is wrong. Right for some, not right for others, doesn't make either incorrect.

Ragoczy speaks of there not being literal slaves today from the view point of a Dominant who is true. i understand this and if everyone in the lifestyle were true there would be no need for warnings.

In my own service as kajira, i submitted to total power exchange. i did not work outside of His home; i did not meet anyone He didn't approve of first; i was not permitted outside the residence without Him in attendance. The reference that slaves today may call 911 or leave of their own volition is a valid point, if one can manage to get to a phone. (a little difficult if under extreme discipline when the phone is disengaged and one is tied extended periods of time and under watch the rest of the time). There are always lapses occassionally and that is how i left of my own free will. To say that slaves today are not literal shows a bit of naivete. Some situations, yes it is true. Other situations, other lifestyle choices do create literal slaves in every sense of the word. Can a slave choose to leave? Absolutely, just as in history slaves ran away when they got the chance, just as in the books, some slaves escaped. Is it always a matter of saying "Thanks, this was fun but i'm leaving now" and walk out the door... in a perfect world, yes it would be. Todays "slave" does make a choice at the beginning to accept a position as slave. So in that sense, yes it is consentual and that makes it a fantasy to begin with and after a time in service the slavery can become quite real and literal. So this is where todays slavery is different. A first choice and then sometimes, no choice.

Gorean Philosophies of natural human behaviors are beautiful and have the ability to set one free. Gender roles were defined and simple. If we all could simple down and get back to basics we'd see more of this simplistic balance in our lives.

In todays world there is much confusion, Men and women both, never knowing what is acceptable, what will offend, what will be politically incorrect. The role of women today is hazy. We must function as Men were designed to hunt and gather and provide for our family while flipping our hats and also trying to nuture. i find this hard. After working all day aggressively, to then suddenly shut off the dominance and aggression and be loving and supportive is a task i never asked for.

i look at our world today, the "progress" we've made and i wonder how such good ideas went so terribly wrong. Our world is overpopulated and as such is damaging and killing our earth. Our populations are growing unhealthier by the minute because of "progress" that makes our lives easier. Our Men are growing lax due to the technologies that leave their strength obsolete. Our families are declining due to fact that we are losing the ability and desire to take responsibility for another other than ourselves. The ideas of being feminine and female and submissive to another are literally turning into a form of treason and God help those Men who stand up and offer the strength They've somehow managed to retain through it all, for They are then crucified for intimating that a woman might need or want help.

While the Gorean Life as portrayed in the novels may be undesireable to us as a whole; the philosophies contained in the books may lead the way for at least a few us to correct these imbalances within our own homes and hearts. i see nothing wrong with taking the ideals that might just work from anywhere i can get them.

Look at our world today and the philosophies we have adopted in our progress. They are unhealthy.

[goldendawn]

.