Why do many BDSM people look down on switches?

[Veralynne]

Question Vox-

Do you ever want to commit to one side, Dom or sub, for the rest of your life? I mean- let's say you found a Master or sub and wanted to marry them, be with them forever, etc., and your only partner. Is it more likely you'd want to be the Dom or sub in that relationship? And would you be able to choose? Would you be comfortable living the rest of your life not expressing one side of your sexuality? Or do you think you'd have to have a partner that is a switch to do that?

Sorry for all the questions- I just don't understand much but want to know more.

:-P

[voxelectronica]

Question Vox-

Do you ever want to commit to one side, Dom or sub, for the rest of your life?

want is a strong word. I do not WANT to commit but then again i don't like the idea of committing to one person.

I mean- let's say you found a Master or sub and wanted to marry them, be with them forever, etc., and your only partner. Is it more likely you'd want to be the Dom or sub in that relationship?

now when it comes down to WANT. That's different. I can think of people that I would WANT to be with in a monogamous relationship (or close to it). Some of those people are sub some are Dom. That doesn't bother me, i would be what they wanted because I want them. I want them for who they are and how they handle their kink.

And would you be able to choose? Would you be comfortable living the rest of your life not expressing one side of your sexuality? Or do you think you'd have to have a partner that is a switch to do that?

Well first of all I would only date a switch if they were a Dom or sub and i was the opposite. I don't switch the same person. Secondly I'm bi so this is a question I've had to deal with for some time but have finally been able to explain it (I hope).

My sexuality is more like a series of slots. So the gender slot can be filled with boy or girl (or really anything in between). BDSM slot can be filled with either submissive or Dominant roles. I'm not looking for both, if I'm "denied" one option i don't miss it as my slot is filled. I'm looking for perfection in those roles though. I'm not looking for some ugly boy or girl they have to be pretty. I'm not looking for someone who likes to get slapped around in bed. I'm looking for someone who will be there on their knees, naked, looking down when I walk through the door OR a Dom who will be just as diligent as i am.

Just because I'm up for anything doesn't mean I want everything all at once.

Sorry for all the questions- I just don't understand much but want to know more.

:-P

don't worry about it.

[thir]

[QUOTE=sinderella;756498]

oh well, you can't say we didn't try...

Blast! I had to hurry so much before everything disappeared (doen anyone else have this problem??) that I got it wrong.

I meant to say that everything is clear, thanks.

Sorry about the confusion - must be off..

[voxelectronica]

want is a strong word. I do not WANT to commit but then again i don't like the idea of committing to one person.

of course i meant "commit" is a strong word and it is... though i can do it, it takes some serious inspiration.

[Ninva]

In everything else in my life, I walk the middle of the road and dare people on either side to hit me - I suppose it's only right to do it in power exchange as well...

The bisexual, social liberal, fiscal conservative, libertarian leaning objectivist point of view is quite unpopular, and it seems I am adding a fresh new layer of unpopularness to my reality.

*shrug* I admit it; I am in life for the laughs... This is gonna be fun! And, as long as Impailer (my owner) is happy no one else's opinions matter at all.

[voxelectronica]

The bisexual, social liberal, fiscal conservative, libertarian leaning objectivist point of view is quite unpopular, and it seems I am adding a fresh new layer of unpopularness to my reality.

Ha! I'm the same! we should make a club!

[Ninva]

Apparently there's only two of us...

It makes for an EXCLUSIVE club!

[SauvagePouline]

but if its a club then you're CONFORMING to something... lol

I mean that in all teasing btw, i enjoy refusing to conform as well :-D

All joking aside,

I've been following this thread, and am surprised to see that SO many switches have had poor experiences with Doms and/or subs. I've had the gays-judging-bis experiences. Especially as a female college student bisexual (in my area) since the stereotype is you're just doing it to be cool/sexy etc. Lots of comments like "Is no one straight anymore???"

But I thought switching made lots of sense. There isn't a so-called "natural" orientation for that, and I can totally understand feeling differently about different people. After all, sub's don't feel subby for every person they meet. It reminds me of that K something scale for sexuality, where almost no one is 0,5 or 10 (completely straight, bi or gay). It seems logical that D/s would be the same way?

This is interesting food for thought, and also very sad.

[guest010609]

Recently the question was put here whether being a switch makes for a better dom/sub.

I would think so in many cases, because you know a lot about what things feel like on the other side of the fence. But try to pose that question on your average bdsm list, and you are likely to get less than respectful answers..

I myself have pondered these comments:

If you both submit and dominate, then you cannot be really serious/devoted in either.

Or that a Dom or sub is born that way, and that is just the way it is.

Or that doms/subs never ever switch.

Or they get in the way of each other in a practical way.

I would be very interested in hearing what others have to say here, as I myself have some problems with getting things straightened out in my head.

My answer to this question is that in my experience dominance and submission- especially slavery do get in the way of each other in a practical way. If you are interested in exactly why I feel that way, please see my post here in the switch forum, in the thread "Permission to Switch". It seems silly to repeat the whole story that I just typed out 10 mins ago. Bottom line is that I am *naturally* a switch- meaning that it is natural for me to wish to submit to a man and dominate women. However, in my case (and I suspect in other people's situations too) switching is as bad for me as a drug or alcohol addiction would be. In my view (regarding myself) switching is a very bad addiction or habit, which I can control with the right support system. For me, switching must be avoided at all cost. I don't look down on switches but I do think that it is a very bad idea- with the exception of bedroom only s&m players who just enjoy switching with each other in play and have no desire for 24/7, TPE etc. I guess I view many switches as misguided and perhaps as wrestling with emotional issues that could be better solved by total abstinance from switching.

[Ninva]

Here's the part that I really can't understand - Why are we, as humans, polarized?

I'm simply taking the middle path between every extreme because, well, I'm mediocre, er, moderate, er, middle-of-the-road. You know, wishy-washy... I'm as opposed to the outliers as they are to me, and probably more so, as I believe I have natural, mathematical laws on my side here!

By the law of averages, shouldn't our positions on most things be more bell shaped and less polarized?

Then again, perhaps the outliers are actually afraid of us in some way - a perfect sub who knows how to hurt people probably just doesn't sit well with some sensibilities. Somewhere in the back of their mind they realize that they aren't playing with a real doormat, but something with teeth.

Now, my owner thinks it's cool. He thinks I should be able to defend my own honor in case any man might be foolish enough to touch his property. And, the man is absolutely dead serious about it.

I, and anyone who accompanies me anywhere, must be willing to fight tooth and nail to protect his wife.

TONS of rules about where I can go, when, with whom, and how well armed I'm expected to be. Rarely, I can get by with my "necklace," a single knuckle on a spiked bar - a toy somewhere between a roll of quarters, a steel shank, and brass knuckles. Thats, like, a jog or something - walking distance. Usually, I go with him, and he's armed to the teeth in addition to being a grizzly. When I go off the farm with someone else, I have a toter's permit and a .22 that folds up into a "phone."

gotta run, my bear calls....

[guest010609]

Lol, ninva... I understand what you mean about your Owner expecting you to be able to defend yourself and not put yourself at risk. My Master has shaped me into the person that i am... bitchy, verbose, domineering (except with him, of course), pushy, abrasive and in general very capable of being a very strong, capable person. Additionally, he expects me to fight my ass off if I were ever to be phsyically attacked and he weren't there. He never wanted a simpering, whiney little syncophant of a slave who could not take care of herself and stand up for herself, her beliefs and yes, even to him at the times that he needs to be stood up to. On the other hand, these traits do not (to me) equate with switching. Switching is a very different dynamic within our own heads as much as it is with those who we might play with, own or be owned by. You know... I can't really remember what exactly my point was here... but I'm not about to just erase the post after this much effort lol....hopefully someone can sort out my scattered thoughts and get something out of my words.

[Pearlgem]

But I thought switching made lots of sense. There isn't a so-called "natural" orientation for that, and I can totally understand feeling differently about different people. After all, sub's don't feel subby for every person they meet.

Hmm, I'm not a switch; I've identified myself as sub and am comfortable with that, but your remark here, sp, really made me think. Most, if not all, of the subs on here would probably agree with it. I certainly can. I have my usual, everyday behaviour, and then my sub yearnings for one man and one man only. So at least I travel along the spectrum of 'normal' to sub.
I have been following the 'what the hell is switching all about and why do they hate us' threads with interest, trying to understand what at first seems quite alien to me. But perhaps it's just that I haven't allowed myself to see my own (theoretical) possibilities.

To the switches out there, is sp's a useful example to help understand the switching mindset?

[voxelectronica]

but if its a club then you're CONFORMING to something... lol

I mean that in all teasing btw, i enjoy refusing to conform as well :-D

I hate it! I hate being different. I wish i could be like everyone else even if it was pretending. I can't even do that right. I wish i was straight or gay. I wish i was Dom or sub. I wish i was one or the other. Some days I even wish i was a democrat so people wouldn't hate me on site.

[Ninva]

*giggle* LIAR! I can't believe that some part of you doesn't love the firm knowledge that you are you. Sure, you probably spend more time hiding yourself than you like, but when you reveal yourself, the honesty is ample reward!

[voxelectronica]

*giggle* LIAR! I can't believe that some part of you doesn't love the firm knowledge that you are you. Sure, you probably spend more time hiding yourself than you like, but when you reveal yourself, the honesty is ample reward!

NO WAY!

I love being me sure. I totally love myself. I'm awesome incarnate if you ask me but no one gets me. No one suspends their preconceived ideas of one of the things I am to find out about another thing i am and how they work together.

"oh you're a republican who is pro life then you are obviously one of those religious people who want to take over America."

"oh you're a satanist? well then obviously you are a devil worshiper"

"oh you're bi well then you're just greedy and can't make up your mind"...

The worse is when i get it out that I'm gay and gender queer and a republican... then I'm "self loathing" or "stupid and confused".

No I'd rather be normal and fit into a box so people wouldn't get mad at *me* for their own stupidity. It's rather boring and I hate it.

[Flaming_Redhead]

BDSM as we know it today evolved from protocol established by what is commonly referred to as the Old Guard which consisted of gay World War II veterans. Until the Old Guard, S&M was practiced in private or in brothels. There was no established set of rules. The gay leathermen utilized their military experience and organized groups with dress codes and etiquette. It was all very formal and very ritualized. To join their clubs, you had to demonstrate a sincere interest in and a great deal of dedication to becoming involved in S&M, either as a top or a bottom. Tops and bottoms typically apprenticed to the more experienced players. Switches were not considered to be serious players because they lacked the dedication necessary to commit to either role.

Eventually, heterosexuals and lesbians got wind of the clubs and wanted to join in order to learn and participate. This generation is referred to as Old School. They changed some of the protocol to be less militant, but the clubs were still exclusive in that only "serious" people need apply. While the Old Guard was into "rough" sex, the AIDS epidemic necessitated safer play, so the motto "safe, sane, and consensual" was coined.

With the introduction of the Internet came an influx of new people from the mildly curious to the adventurous kinkster. Munches and clubs became all inclusive. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing. However, people new to BDSM tend to believe that just because they are "kinky" they should be accepted. The acronym BDSM stands for bondage, discipline, dominance, submission, sadism, and masochism. There is such a wide variety of kink contained in those 4 small letters that being kinky isn't enough to bring a community together. That's why there tend to be subgroups for dominatrices, masters and slaves, Goreans, et al.

Just because someone decides you're incompatible because you label yourself a switch doesn't always mean they're insecure or closed minded. They just know what they want. I'm a switch who is mostly submissive, and I want my dominant to be only that. I don't want a switch for the same reason many don't. I need my dominant to be very...dominant. I don't want to switch with him because it would totally ruin the dynamic for me, and I don't want to share him with a dominatrix because I don't want anyone having that level of control and intimacy with my man. I also don't want to make him choose and risk being unfulfilled. As for myself, I can live with whatever boundaries are set for me, but there are many dominants who won't take the risk. The people who make comments about switches being "fake" are usually Old School style BDSMers or just repeating what they've always heard or believed out of ignorance. There isn't anything wrong with having one true way or being open minded as long as you aren't trying to shove your way down anybody else's throat, and that goes for all...poly, monog, bi, straight, gay, Old School, The Next Generation, etc.

[mindgames]

Recently the question was put here whether being a switch makes for a better dom/sub.

I would think so in many cases, because you know a lot about what things feel like on the other side of the fence. But try to pose that question on your average bdsm list, and you are likely to get less than respectful answers..

I myself have pondered these comments:

If you both submit and dominate, then you cannot be really serious/devoted in either.

Or that a Dom or sub is born that way, and that is just the way it is.

Or that doms/subs never ever switch.

Or they get in the way of each other in a practical way.

I would be very interested in hearing what others have to say here, as I myself have some problems with getting things straightened out in my head.

I myself am a switch and I have never know myself to be looked down upon.
Your pondered comments, are valid, but I myself have never seen the problem. Previous Masters and submissives have found me to their satisfaction. When I with a My Master, I am submissive, and I stay that way. When with my slave, I am Mistress, and dominate.

[Ninva]

There isn't anything wrong with having one true way or being open minded as long as you aren't trying to shove your way down anybody else's throat, and that goes for all...poly, monog, bi, straight, gay, Old School, The Next Generation, etc.

Very nicely said, and thank you!

[denuseri]

BDSM as we know it today evolved from protocol established by what is commonly referred to as the Old Guard which consisted of gay World War II veterans. Until the Old Guard, S&M was practiced in private or in brothels. There was no established set of rules. The gay leathermen utilized their military experience and organized groups with dress codes and etiquette. It was all very formal and very ritualized. To join their clubs, you had to demonstrate a sincere interest in and a great deal of dedication to becoming involved in S&M, either as a top or a bottom. Tops and bottoms typically apprenticed to the more experienced players. Switches were not considered to be serious players because they lacked the dedication necessary to commit to either role.

Eventually, heterosexuals and lesbians got wind of the clubs and wanted to join in order to learn and participate. This generation is referred to as Old School. They changed some of the protocol to be less militant, but the clubs were still exclusive in that only "serious" people need apply. While the Old Guard was into "rough" sex, the AIDS epidemic necessitated safer play, so the motto "safe, sane, and consensual" was coined.

With the introduction of the Internet came an influx of new people from the mildly curious to the adventurous kinkster. Munches and clubs became all inclusive. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing. However, people new to BDSM tend to believe that just because they are "kinky" they should be accepted. The acronym BDSM stands for bondage, discipline, dominance, submission, sadism, and masochism. There is such a wide variety of kink contained in those 4 small letters that being kinky isn't enough to bring a community together. That's why there tend to be subgroups for dominatrices, masters and slaves, Goreans, et al.

Just because someone decides you're incompatible because you label yourself a switch doesn't always mean they're insecure or closed minded. They just know what they want. I'm a switch who is mostly submissive, and I want my dominant to be only that. I don't want a switch for the same reason many don't. I need my dominant to be very...dominant. I don't want to switch with him because it would totally ruin the dynamic for me, and I don't want to share him with a dominatrix because I don't want anyone having that level of control and intimacy with my man. I also don't want to make him choose and risk being unfulfilled. As for myself, I can live with whatever boundaries are set for me, but there are many dominants who won't take the risk. The people who make comments about switches being "fake" are usually Old School style BDSMers or just repeating what they've always heard or believed out of ignorance. There isn't anything wrong with having one true way or being open minded as long as you aren't trying to shove your way down anybody else's throat, and that goes for all...poly, monog, bi, straight, gay, Old School, The Next Generation, etc.

Thank You so much for saying what so needed to be said sisa !!!!

[craven]

hmmm i am still not sure that people do look down on switches, i certainly dont and dont think that others have to me, or of they have i have never noticed it

the jury as they say is most certainly still out................

[Pearlgem]

Reminds me of an old sketch. There are three persons in a row, middle one speaks first....

'I am a submissive.' (looks right) 'I look down on switches.' (looks left) 'But I look up to Dominants.'...

[JamesMDenton]

I know I'm a bit late to the thread, but I'm pretty new here, and this subject is one of the main reasons that I've avoided the "Scene". A brief background before I explain my thoughts.

I got into BDSM in a Dominant role, and for quite a while it stayed that way, until she asked if she could "try" being the Dom, and being pretty open to trying new things, as a reward, I let her. And it was a completely new experience. I really enjoyed it, but in a completely different way than Domming. I wouldn't even say the two are interchangeable, because to me it's as unique as between hunger and thirst. The difference being I wouldn't consider either more necessary than the other.

The argument could be made that I was never truly subbing due to it being more of a 'reward', but I disagree, it was just a different way of being intimate.

That said, I would probably only consider switching with the same person if it was a loving committed relationship. Otherwise I don't think I'd even have the desire to switch it up.

In addition, I can't stress enough how much switching has made me "better" at the opposing role. It gives you a completely new understanding, and I would feel more confident with a sub or a Dom if I knew they had at least tried the other way.

That's what I've got right now, hopefully it makes sense, I've been up entirely too long.

- J

[thir]

Sorry to come a little late back to this..real life getting in the way of the pc ;-)

BDSM as we know it today evolved from protocol established by what is commonly referred to as the Old Guard which consisted of gay World War II veterans. Until the Old Guard, S&M was practiced in private or in brothels. There was no established set of rules. The gay leathermen utilized their military experience and organized groups with dress codes and etiquette. It was all very formal and very ritualized. To join their clubs, you had to demonstrate a sincere interest in and a great deal of dedication to becoming involved in S&M, either as a top or a bottom. Tops and bottoms typically apprenticed to the more experienced players. Switches were not considered to be serious players because they lacked the dedication necessary to commit to either role.

Nods - I have read that this is how it went in US. But in other countries things were different. Gay men were there first, but the rest followed soon after, and we never had any old school history. I would like to know how it went in the Netherlands as well, for instance, they have had a thriving free sexual culture of any kind for a long time.

With the introduction of the Internet came an influx of new people from the mildly curious to the adventurous kinkster. Munches and clubs became all inclusive. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing. However, people new to BDSM tend to believe that just because they are "kinky" they should be accepted. The acronym BDSM stands for bondage, discipline, dominance, submission, sadism, and masochism. There is such a wide variety of kink contained in those 4 small letters that being kinky isn't enough to bring a community together. That's why there tend to be subgroups for dominatrices, masters and slaves, Goreans, et al.

This paragraph I do not understand..? could you elaborate a bit?

Just because someone decides you're incompatible because you label yourself a switch doesn't always mean they're insecure or closed minded. They just know what they want.

True.

The people who make comments about switches being "fake" are usually Old School style BDSMers or just repeating what they've always heard or believed out of ignorance.

That is also my impression.

There isn't anything wrong with having one true way or being open minded as long as you aren't trying to shove your way down anybody else's throat, and that goes for all...poly, monog, bi, straight, gay, Old School, The Next Generation, etc.

Very true!
Only so many do in fact try to shove their way down your throat..

[thir]

I know I'm a bit late to the thread,

No problem, many threads go on for a long time. Besides, we cannot all sit at the pc 24/7 ;-0

but I'm pretty new here, and this subject is one of the main reasons that I've avoided the "Scene". A brief background before I explain my thoughts.

Would you like to elaborate a bit on that?

In addition, I can't stress enough how much switching has made me "better" at the opposing role. It gives you a completely new understanding, and I would feel more confident with a sub or a Dom if I knew they had at least tried the other way.

That's what I've got right now, hopefully it makes sense, I've been up entirely too long.

Certainly it does, many of us have had the same kind of experience.

I hope you feel welcome here, and want to post more.

[voxelectronica]

Reminds me of an old sketch. There are three persons in a row, middle one speaks first....

'I am a submissive.' (looks right) 'I look down on switches.' (looks left) 'But I look up to Dominants.'...

that was awesome!

[Flaming_Redhead]

This paragraph I do not understand..? could you elaborate a bit?

People being the social creatures that they are, they want to fit in somewhere. The problem is that once everyone claiming to be kinky was allowed entry into the clubs there began to be cliques and in-fighting. You had Old School butting heads with The Next Generation who didn't want to be told how they had to do things. The fact is that people like to associate with others of a similar mindset, and once diversity was achieved...well....it actually became harder for groups to maintain any sort of togetherness.

For example, in my own life, if my kinky friends and I formed a group, it would be hard to find topics that applied to all of us and didn't end up in an argument. My friend since high school and her husband are bedroom kinksters. To her, it's all fun and games. She is appalled, at times, that I, a lifestyler, prefer to actually be controlled. In her own words, my relationship is unhealthy. On the other hand, I find her "pretending" in the bedroom to be shallow and meaningless. Then, there's the couple who are into swinging with a little bit of kink thrown in. The wife is the dominant partner. She is also somewhat appalled that I'd prefer to let a man be in control. In her words, I'm a grown woman who can do as I please, and if he doesn't like it...tough shit. Thankfully, our friendships aren't based on kink. We can accept that we have different beliefs, but it's much harder for strangers to walk into a group of people and find acceptance or be accepting of others. It's just human nature.

[orchidsoul]

This is surely an interesting thread.

The only way I can describe being a switch is that of someone who chooses love regardless of gender. They don't identify as gay/lesbian, straight or even bi for that matter. They identify with people are people, and certain people make them want to fall in love regardless of gender.

For me, there are some people who have completely beckoned my submission. And others, my dominance. It's really as simple as that. I've never switched with the same person as it tends to be one or the other for me. I lean more to the submissive side generally, but as a submissive... I don't much identify with heavier masochism. However, my dominant mind is quite sadistic. Just tossing another layer of confusion

I'm a fairly middle of the road type person as well, and perhaps that's why I lean both ways in this regard. I sort of don't understand what IS so difficult to understand about being a switch? Hopefully we've all helped explain it a bit better.

Like was pointed out, there's few submissives who would declare everyone beckons their submissive side. Just because you may not act out dominance in a sexual or d/s fashion is not necessarily relevant, imo. You're still not submissive around certain people. It's the same really. We've just added an intimate layer.

[Arria]

I do not look down on switchers, in general. There was a time when a few switches were around in the scene, and that was fine with me (I am not much of a scene person, but hubby is).

What I find aggravating is the new trend (at least hereabouts, in Germany), that all of a sudden the majority of people seem to think EVERYBODY is basically a switch, and they try and force that opinion unto others like me, who has not a switching bone in her body.
They are extremely patronizing, and they (not that I had asked their opinion) run around, announcing everyone who does not switch is "suppressing" that other half, and has a problem, and should try it, or rather, the partner one is with should let his partner try it.
It´s crackbrained. And I do not believe half of the switches who run around nowadays are for real.
A huge load of those people I met were sub men who found no Domme, and thought it a smart move to pretend to be a switch (who just happens to need being dominated in 99 out of a 100 times in upcoming play scenes). Duhhh.

I personally am not a switch and cannot begin to understand what it must be like. I think it must be confusing in a relationship - how do they go about deciding who is the top and who the bottom all the time?

Hubby spoke with some switches, and they explained that their "state" depends on the person they are with - some people evoke their dominance, others evoke their submission, so it´s not a problem in a relationship as things are settled.

But even if it is like that, I think it must be hard to be fulfilled in a relationship where you get only half of what you want.
The idea of playing outside the relationship is not an option for everyone, either (it certainly wouldn´t be ok for me).

[Laila]

I don't think its just switches - looking down on people seems to be the scene's favourite form of entertainment.

Just today in a random chat conversation I got laughed at and patronized for being an exclusive sub. Like I don't take my submission seriously.

Like Arria, I have trouble understanding how to be a switch because I could never never be dominant but then I can't understand how to be dominant either.

[Flaming_Redhead]

What I find aggravating is the new trend (at least hereabouts, in Germany), that all of a sudden the majority of people seem to think EVERYBODY is basically a switch, and they try and force that opinion unto others like me, who has not a switching bone in her body.
They are extremely patronizing, and they (not that I had asked their opinion) run around, announcing everyone who does not switch is "suppressing" that other half, and has a problem, and should try it, or rather, the partner one is with should let his partner try it.
It´s crackbrained. And I do not believe half of the switches who run around nowadays are for real.

It's happening here, too. However, I have been on the receiving end of "you aren't really a switch." I find it also to be extremely patronizing to be called "a sub who likes to top." There has been only one person I wanted to dominate on a full-time basis, but she only wanted to play. As soon as I found that out, I had no interest in topping her anymore, even though I top others I have no interest in dominating full-time. *shrugs* With her, I wanted it all or nothing.

My switching is based on who I'm with, and you're right about part of you being unfulfilled at times. It all comes down to what you need the most. I can give up topping to be with a dom who doesn't allow playing outside. I can't give up being submissive to be a dom full-time.