what makes a rubbish sub?

[Pearlgem]

A sister thread to the one about arsehole Doms.

While a great many useful observations are being made about Doms who don't cut it, one thing that comes up time and again is that often subs 'ask for' the mistreatment they receive (not in a good way) because they are insufficiently careful, smart or restrained about linking up with a new Dom. They invest far too much of themselves far too quickly without really knowing (or caring that they don't know much about) the person they want to devote their submission to.

So my questions are these:

How can a sub help herself out of that spiral of disappointment with Doms when actually it's largely of her own making?

How do you spot a wannabe sub?

Especially for the Doms, what early signs warn you not to risk further involvement, or is a sub at your feet irresistible no matter the circumstances?

I'm presuming we'd be talking about on line, early stage relationships.

[Misschief]

A sister thread to the one about arsehole Doms.

While a great many useful observations are being made about Doms who don't cut it, one thing that comes up time and again is that often subs 'ask for' the mistreatment they receive (not in a good way) because they are insufficiently careful, smart or restrained about linking up with a new Dom. They invest far too much of themselves far too quickly without really knowing (or caring that they don't know much about) the person they want to devote their submission to.

So my questions are these:

How can a sub help herself out of that spiral of disappointment with Doms when actually it's largely of her own making?

How do you spot a wannabe sub?

Especially for the Doms, what early signs warn you not to risk further involvement, or is a sub at your feet irresistible no matter the circumstances?

I'm presuming we'd be talking about on line, early stage relationships.

I am a firm believer in keeping email communications brief at the incept of online D/s courtings.. Even though Y/you hold out the best of hope that expectations will be met, I have found, (especially with male subs) they are less discriminate than I would prefer..

Seems like wanna-bes willl assume based upon the fact that both parties have the prescribed equipment, that everything will go exactly as it has in their fantasies..

And amusingly, when I ask for details on their ideal scene, cistern-worthy subs with use phrases like, "do things to me".. And I laugh.. "Things", huh..?

The above is My experience from earlier today in regard to professional sessions I am currently attempting to arrange..

Also, I find rubbish-subs will attempt to get as much sexually charged banter out of Me, asap.. They have no serious intentions aside from rubbing one out while reading My online missives, trying not to wake their old-lady who's asleep in the next room..

subs, be reluctant to send your photo out until at least the 2nd letter.. And NEVER send a classy Domme a nude or cock picture.. Though this may border on sexist, I never mind nude photos of female subs (unless it's a gratuitous beaver shot..)

My experience has taught Me to doubt everyone until they have proven themselves.. Never send pics in the 1st missive..

Hope that helps..

[Clevernick]

My guesses:

A rubbish sub, like a rubbish dom, does not like herself, or himself. She isn't there to be tamed or owned, she's there to hand over her self-esteem, what there is left of it, to someone else.

Some signs of this may include a previous pattern of always choosing control-freak psycho Doms, or a total lack of will or decision power in life.

Dominating someone without a will must be ultimately as satisfying as beating up a cripple.

[damyanti]

[craven]

to be to the point a very poor dominant, simple as !

[Pearlgem]

to be to the point a very poor dominant, simple as !

A sub's only as good as her Dom? Is that true??

[craven]

well i used the word dominant to make it asexual dom(me) but yes, if the word "rubbish" is being used then there is obviously a serious breakdown in communication and a real lack of understanding.

I personally dont feel that you can have a good dom(me) bad sub, or bad dom(me) good sub, it s the dynamic that is either good or bad, this is dependent upon both parties

[sadiej]

i think that rubbish subs are those that look only to meeting their own needs and sexual appetites. there is an almost frenzied pace to the way they engage and approach a Dom/me. the needy, clingy, whiny, bratty and overly dramatic attitude that they display. everything is about "me."

a true submissive everything is about "Him/Her." your desire and passion is to serve, please and obey your Master/Mistress. in doing so you find your own personal pleasure and enjoyment are fulfillled. Their pleasure is your pleasure. your goal and desire is for the mutual connection and amazing feeling of sharing the exchange. not just getting your own needs fulfillled.

i think some of the warning signs of a "wanna-be" sub are:

1. changes Master's frequently
2. seek and need constant attention
3. "all about me" attitude
4. jump into play connection or relationship
5. don't invest in their own personal growth

in my opinion a true subissive is one that sees their service as a gift and desries to give it to the right one freely. spirited and intelligent without that "i can't be tamed" attitude.

"high maintenance" subs are like a bad car. you spend more time with them in the shop "fixing things." you don't really get to enjoy the wonders of driving on the open road.

[voxelectronica]

I agree to a point with craven. Mostly because of something I'm experiencing myself. I have a Dom friend who is great for bouncing ideas off of. As much as I don't see myself as experienced as a Dom I am very experienced in the lifestyle itself. I understand what he wants as an end result however I see him going about it in the wrong way.

He's very keen on the idea of me interacting with one of his subs and it's pretty intriguing so why not?

Well from talking to his sub I've actually gathered a lot more about him than months of talking to the guy. she is not some shinning example of submission mind you. she is very boring and is very much undescriptive in her answers when I ask her about anything. Sure it could be that she simple has no experience or that she also has no imagination (as i feel a sub should have as s/he should always be thinking). Either way I find myself filling in the blanks a lot and winning gentleman's bets about her nature against her own Dom.

I'm finding though more and more that she is at the very least eager to lose control and she wants discipline in some form.

I find this more common in women though. I think a female "rubbish sub" can be turned around pretty quickly paired with the right Dom. That her bad habits can be broken. Even the examples that ahava has given can be overcome by the right Dom.

I agree with Misschief when it comes to males. I would say about 1 in 5 males that i come in contact with simply want to rub one out. Luckily, they're easy to spot and I simply don't talk to them.

(i just noticed that i always refer to Dominants as Dom and never use Domme please excuse my male association issue)

[thir]

a true submissive everything is about "Him/Her." your desire and passion is to serve, please and obey your Master/Mistress. in doing so you find your own personal pleasure and enjoyment are fulfillled. Their pleasure is your pleasure. your goal and desire is for the mutual connection and amazing feeling of sharing the exchange.

That is one profile, but there are others.


[quote]i think some of the warning signs of a "wanna-be" sub are:


4. jump into play connection or relationship [quote/]

You can be a sub and yet not a slave. There is nothing wrong with play connections, as long as - and this is where it goes wrong IMO - it is understood to be a play connection. Too many subs want the fantasy of slavery but not the reality, and do not make that clear.

in my opinion a true subissive is one that sees their service as a gift and desries to give it to the right one freely. spirited and intelligent without that "i can't be tamed" attitude.

But to some that is what it is all about, on both sides ;-

"high maintenance" subs are like a bad car. you spend more time with them in the shop "fixing things." you don't really get to enjoy the wonders of driving on the open road.

True if there is a mismatch.

[Arria]

I´d like to add that the "I can´t be tamed"-attitude is very helpful in scaring wannabe Doms away - the wannabe sort of Dom who want a doormat because they have a wrong picture of what a sub is, thinking a sub gave up all rights and the use of her brains at the same time, and thinking a person who calls herself a sub must submit automatically to any old douchebag who calls himself a Dom.

This idea strikes me as ridiculous as the idea of suggesting a woman with a boyfriend must automatically be willing to fuck any person wearing trousers, just because they are male, too.

I agree with voxelectronica. I would even go as far to say that a certain amount of single subs can, and want to be, "turned around", but only by the right Dom, by a strong person.

I was like that in real life until I met my Dom. But I was aware all the time what I was doing, and it was intentional that I scared away men who were not strong enough for me. I could never submit to a man who is weaker than myself, or afraid of my mind and mouth.

Mind you, it took me 5 years of search to find a guy who was more strong-willed than I am. However, we have been together almost 11 years now, 7 of them married, and I think it was completely worth the effort.

I have the impression people nowadays have no more patience, and some of them expect to find the perfect partner gift-wrapped at their feet by fate. This is not likely to happen.

[sidhewolf]

A sister thread to the one about arsehole Doms.

While a great many useful observations are being made about Doms who don't cut it, one thing that comes up time and again is that often subs 'ask for' the mistreatment they receive (not in a good way) because they are insufficiently careful, smart or restrained about linking up with a new Dom. They invest far too much of themselves far too quickly without really knowing (or caring that they don't know much about) the person they want to devote their submission to.

So my questions are these:

How can a sub help herself out of that spiral of disappointment with Doms when actually it's largely of her own making?

How do you spot a wannabe sub?

Especially for the Doms, what early signs warn you not to risk further involvement, or is a sub at your feet irresistible no matter the circumstances?

I'm presuming we'd be talking about on line, early stage relationships.

Here is an article I have in my file that may help to answer some, if not all of these questions. It used to be on Steel Door, but is no longer on Her site.

Submissive Frenzies

Submissive Frenzies are a state or condition that many if not all submissives will experience at one time or another. Many aspects of BDSM are similar to addictions in how they play out in the mind. From that perspective the Frenzies can be considered to be the 'withdrawal' stage. The peculiar thing about this is that a submissive need not ever have engaged in a real life D/s BDSM experience to actually go into this state of need. Generally the very first experience a submissive will have will be prior to ever engaging in a real life D/s event. Many submissives can chronicle a 'longing' or unspecified 'need' which may have begun when they were quite little. This sensation was always present though generally unacknowledged or openly reviewed. In many cases the submissive was not able to identify the source of this sensation. It simply made them restless and on occasion subject to frustrated outbursts.

With the 'finding' of the D/s BDSM community many submissives feel a corresponding 'surge' of excitement. Suddenly they sense or feel that this is the source. The realization or identification of this can be both positive and negative. For many there is a period of denial, anger, repugnance, fear, hesitation, temerity and hope. All of these emotions seem to occur simultaneously leaving behind confusion and anxiety. All at once they begin to 'sort' the events and motivations that have occured over their entire lives. Seeing the patterns, the hints, the presence of their desires in so many different ways. It explains previous unexplainable actions they may have taken and views the actions of themselves and others from an entirely different standpoint. As they begin to process all of this new information they become fully aware that the source of all those surpressed needs and desires is attainable. Not only that but in a fairly accessible in a timely manner.

What occurs next is a mad dash or race toward 'finding' that special person who can attend to those so long unattended needs coupled to a desperate desire to gather more and more information. This often triggers or propels the initiation of a state of frenzy. This is an increasing and progressive sensation of 'need'. Fairly quickly the submissive may discover that 'getting their fix', becomes supremely important in their lives. It can leave them irrational, willing to make poor decisions, rash, impulsive and generally stupid. A submissive in a frenzied state is at their MOST vulnerable to succumbing to the ploys of those less than admirable. They may become easily enthralled, believe themselves 'in love', willing to give over ANYTHING (almost literally) in order to fill that enormous void in their life.

Contact with a Dominant, almost any kind will tend to rivet their attention. The very first gift that the submissive gives away here is their common sense. The sensations piggy-back, by this I mean that the submissive upon discovering the community and all the excitement and feelings surrounding 'finding their home', may easily pile on their 'desire' for completion and pounce on the first candidate that comes along as being 'THE ONE'. They invest everything, believe everything and LEAP at the opportunity. Too often they discover they have grabbed at a tin ring instead of a brass one, they have some sort of nasty or unpleasant experience and step back trying to discover what is wrong in their new world.

In addition, a submissive who has detached from their Dominant will slowly but surely go into a state of need. This is in my opinion a naturally occuring state by which the submissive projects their availability and desire for a new mate. I should also mention that the experiences within the relationship are in many ways addictive. The state of natural euphoria that a submissive may experience during a scene can set off a hunger to experience that again. This is identical to the introduction of ANY addictive drug chemistries into the body, the same symptomology in many ways.

A submissive in a pre-frenzy need state will often become very alluring, flattering, flexible. They will mirror the apparent 'needs' of the Dominant they are talking to in order to appear to be the perfect candidate for a future alliance. Though the submissives in general do not tend to lie here, many only present partial truth's. One said to me, "you have to ask me the right question". This leads to multiple problems including a submissive attaching to a Dominant that is completely unsuitable for them.

As I noted earlier this state of frenzy can occur at any point in a submissive's life and is not limited to the new submissive. In fact, it occurs sometimes even stronger in more seasoned submissives. They have a need that they recognize as perhaps to 'have their edges taken off', and they know exactly HOW that can be done through their own experience. The difference is that the older submissive can then 'evaluate' what PART of their need is pressing upon them. Many then learn to go to a Dominant they are NOT bonded to and ask this person they trust (often as a good friend) to relieve their physical need (play). Many Dominant's (experienced ones) will be willing to assist or aide their friend KNOWING that keeping the submissives edges down will allow that submissive to retain the majority of their rational functions while they are seeking their next mate. This action 'reduces' the submissives vulnerability.

From a Dominant's standpoint it is preferrable to discourse with a submissive who is in their best condition. It is very important for the Dominant to learn to recognize the symptoms of frenzy and allow for the premise that the submissive's judgment may be impaired when speaking with them. This allowance should propel detailed questions. Also the Dominant should give 'few' hints as to what they may be looking for. In this way the submissive is more likely to reveal themselves as they do not have a guide to go on. By this I mean that the Dominant should take control and ask what the submissive is looking for instead of OFFERING or directing the submissives attention as to what the Dominant is seeking. In this way the Dominant can generally get a clearer picture of where that submissive is in truth. In addition I believe that the Dominant should NOT ALLOW the submissive to thrust their 'submissiveness' at them, instead they should REQUIRE the submissive to respond to them in neutral or top space as an equal from one human to another. This means that ALLOWING a submissive to use an honorific title when addressing the Dominant should be something that submissive should earn the right to do after a period of time. In example...I am not EVERY SUBMISSIVES MISTRESS. The right to call me Mistress is something in my real life that I grant seldom and means that this submissive is special to me.

By taking this action the Dominant FORCES the submissive into a less vulnerable state when conversing with them. Somewhat like drinking coffee to wake someone up. It is also saying that submission is something I (as the Dominant) MAY allow you to present to me. It is not something I will allow you (as the submissive) to FORCE upon me.

[Arria]

@ sidhewolf: Thank you, this was one of the most useful infos I found so far. I had no idea that state of mind was described and analyzed so well.

During the time I was looking, I made my best gay friend beat the crap out of me with a riding crop on a regular basis. I can go without sex for a long time (since I discovered what I want and need, and realized I would never ever get it from a one-night-stand), but if the other part is missing too long, I get moody, bitchy, short-tempered and bad-mooded that does not only affect the people around me, but myself as well.

[sidhewolf]

@ sidhewolf: Thank you, this was one of the most useful infos I found so far. I had no idea that state of mind was described and analyzed so well.

During the time I was looking, I made my best gay friend beat the crap out of me with a riding crop on a regular basis. I can go without sex for a long time (since I discovered what I want and need, and realized I would never ever get it from a one-night-stand), but if the other part is missing too long, I get moody, bitchy, short-tempered and bad-mooded that does not only affect the people around me, but myself as well.

You're welcome Arria. Thank you for recognizing the value of the article. It just seems so many issues Dominants have with Submissives surround the Frenzy. And if They are aware of it, it might be easier to Manage.

I think nearly any Submissive, or even Slave Spirit, can get out of their own Control, when their needs aren't being Managed by anyone. Between M's, I like you, had friends to knock me down a notch or so, so to speak , and it did help me to stay more balanced Those in Sub Frenzy are just not real sane right then ya know?

Then there is the SubCentric Submissive that Sir Ozme has spoken of. Which is another thing all together from the Sub Frenzy. But that would be for Him to tell about

Respectfully~SidheWolf

[claire]

Here is an article I have in my file that may help to answer some, if not all of these questions. It used to be on Steel Door, but is no longer on Her site.

Submissive Frenzies

Submissive Frenzies are a state or condition that many if not all submissives will experience at one time or another. ...

Thank-you so much for this article. It is what I am going through now. I embarrassed myself once while in a milder frenzy and have fantasized about doing something that would have embarrassed me again. Fortunately/unfortunately I am very introverted, shy and insecure, so I tend to live in my head. That means I am slow to act and extremely passive, but it also means that I build castles in the air, with little basis in reality. Anyway, it helps to recognize what I am experiencing for what it is.

[leah06]

I wish that sub frenzy article could be posted as a sticky. Really.

[jeanne]

I wish that sub frenzy article could be posted as a sticky. Really.

Ditto! Thanks rachel.

[thepast]

We are eliminating stickies in general... however, if Sidhewolf would be willing to find the copyright on that article (i.e. the author & where it came from), I'll look into it.

d

[girly]

"high maintenance" subs are like a bad car. you spend more time with them in the shop "fixing things." you don't really get to enjoy the wonders of driving on the open road.

love the mental image

that's an interesting analysis - thanks for sharing

[girly]

Thank-you so much for this article. It is what I am going through now. I embarrassed myself once while in a milder frenzy and have fantasized about doing something that would have embarrassed me again. Fortunately/unfortunately I am very introverted, shy and insecure, so I tend to live in my head. That means I am slow to act and extremely passive, but it also means that I build castles in the air, with little basis in reality. Anyway, it helps to recognize what I am experiencing for what it is.

...i could also have been the writer of this paragraph... hi Claire

[girly]

We are eliminating stickies in general... however, if Sidhewolf would be willing to find the copyright on that article (i.e. the author & where it came from), I'll look into it.

d

http://www.steel-door.com/Frenzies.html

[dapperling]

I would also just like to say thank you for this article. It's quite like a slap to the face to realise that what you're reading about is you. I have just entered my first online relationship as a sub and have done all the wrong things as described in this article! It is hard i find to think of yourself as irrational when you appear to have spent so much time considering something..

[What occurs next is a mad dash or race toward 'finding' that special person who can attend to those so long unattended needs coupled to a desperate desire to gather more and more information. This often triggers or propels the initiation of a state of frenzy. This is an increasing and progressive sensation of 'need'. Fairly quickly the submissive may discover that 'getting their fix', becomes supremely important in their lives. It can leave them irrational, willing to make poor decisions, rash, impulsive and generally stupid. ]
[Contact with a Dominant, almost any kind will tend to rivet their attention. The very first gift that the submissive gives away here is their common sense. The sensations piggy-back, by this I mean that the submissive upon discovering the community and all the excitement and feelings surrounding 'finding their home', may easily pile on their 'desire' for completion and pounce on the first candidate that comes along as being 'THE ONE']

After having struggle for the past few days trying to realise what is wrong with the relationship, trying to understand why i felt uncomfortable despite my desires to be dominated, this article has managed to "flick the switch" and turn my common sense back on (at least for now! lol!)

At least now understand what is happening in my mind and can take measures to bring myself back on track. Thank you very much for sharing your information, it has made a world of difference for me.

[QUOTE=sidhewolf;780836]Here is an article I have in my file that may help to answer some, if not all of these questions. It used to be on Steel Door, but is no longer on Her site.

Submissive Frenzies

[sidhewolf]

http://www.steel-door.com/Frenzies.html

I couldn't find the link anymore, though I did mention where the article was originally found when I posted the article here initially.

Thanx for finding the link Girly

Respectfully~SidheWolf

[Mistress Annabelle]

The Fenzy article was brilliant, however before this there seems to be a shared opinion that it is hardly a subs fault, and that a dominant should automatically be working to fix the problems of a poor submissive - ask yourselves, why?

As for not having enough patiences, and looking for a gift wrapped partner; patience need only be spent where there is potential. Otherwise it is a waste of time and effort. Some subs don't want to change, as they aren't really suited to the life or role of a submissive, they just take the notion as romantic or erotic, but will never be able to carry through.

A good dominant cannot fix all the problems in a bad sub, sometimes, a bad sub will always be a bad sub.

Sometimes problems can be overcome, but the base material must be there.

I have to say, in most D/s relationships, the dominant is not expected to be the ultimate teacher, with the sub blinding following. There is a dymanic, an equalibrium, which both must work for. A sub cannot just sit on their haunches and wait for the dom(me) to overcome things.

This entire idea is absurd, some people (who make bad subs) become one simply because they are too lazy or scared to make any decisions or effort in their life.

That problem cannot be overcome, except by the sub themself.

[jeanne]

There seems to be a shared opinion that it is hardly a subs fault, and that a dominant should automatically be working to fix the problems of a poor submissive - ask yourselves, why?

As for not having enough patiences, and looking for a gift wrapped partner; patience need only be spent where there is potential. Otherwise it is a waste of time and effort. Some subs don't want to change, as they aren't really suited to the life or role of a submissive, they just take the notion as romantic or erotic, but will never be able to carry through.

A good dominant cannot fix all the problems in a bad sub, sometimes, a bad sub will always be a bad sub.

Sometimes problems can be overcome, but the base material must be there.

I have to say, in most D/s relationships, the dominant is not expected to be the ultimate teacher, with the sub blinding following. There is a dymanic, an equalibrium, which both must work for. A sub cannot just sit on their haunches and wait for the dom(me) to overcome things.

This entire idea is absurd, some people (who make bad subs) become one simply because they are too lazy or scared to make any decisions or effort in their life.

That problem cannot be overcome, except by the sub themself.

Very well said. Thank you!

[Mistress Annabelle]

At Jeanne:



Aw, thanks, it is really just my two-cents.
It just seems to be some people don't want to be blamed for their shortcomings.

[jeanne]

It just seems to be some people don't want to be blamed for their shortcomings.

There you go again - saying it perfectly.

Have a wonderful day!

[Arria]

@ MistressAnnabelle:
"As for not having enough patience, and looking for a gift wrapped partner; patience need only be spent where there is potential. Otherwise it is a waste of time and effort."

This is true. I did not mean that a Dom should have infinite patience with a certain sub.
I meant it for BOTH sides - and I meant people should have more patience in finding the right partner. I did NOT mean a Dom or a sub should spend infinite patience on a certain person while hoping for things to improve!

"Sometimes problems can be overcome, but the base material must be there."
This sums up what I meant. Have patience in finding the suitable "base material" with the right amount of "potential". It is what I did.

Being what I am, I found a greater amount of crappy Dom people than crappy sub people, but I guess the problem exists on both sides - and I think a bad sub could be as much trouble as a bad Dom, although it is my opinion that a bad Dom can do way more harm to a sub, than the other way round... but that might just be my opinion.

As for the idea of blaming others for not being able to manage/fix one´s own life: I always found that immature and disgusting. If I was a Domme, I would certainly not want a sub who expects me to fix everything that went wrong in her life.
Hell, I had such friends in a completely non-sexual surrounding when I was much younger, and I hated every minute of it, and am very glad I managed to get them out of my life.

If a person cannot handle his/her own life, he/she should not even begin to think about having a relationship.
A relationship should be something between adults who can handle their own life to begin with. Anything else will not work out in the long run, anyway.

[jeanne]

As for the idea of blaming others for not being able to manage/fix one´s own life: I always found that immature and disgusting. If I was a Domme, I would certainly not want a sub who expects me to fix everything that went wrong in her life.

I agree with the entire post Arria - but particularly with this sentiment. Thanks!

[Mistress Annabelle]

@ Arria:

Haha, exactly what I meant!
Maybe we were both heading at the same thing in the end, from different points of view.
I agree a poor dom(me) could do more damage than a sub, merely because the oppertunity is there, for the dominant. I think.

But I have run into quite a few subs which really were immature, and lazy. I suppose thats where I am coming from, as my personal experience has seen alot of rather wishywashy subs - partly my fault for trying to fix them...

"If a person cannot handle his/her own life, he/she should not even begin to think about having a relationship. "

Exactly! That particular sentiment should be told to every single person, ever. As I think thats where the basis of a lot of problems are in BDSM community at large - a few people haven't been able to manage their lives well, and are looking for someone to do it for them. I think this can actually be applied to some dom(me)s too - people really need to be in control of their lives before they look to hand over that control, or gain more.