Equality?

[Kendal]

You guys are trying to nail every example with very obscure reasoning because you are clinging to the principle you have to work for everything you get. I am not disputing the value of slogans and ethics like this but they should not be seen as the sort of global laws of the universe both of you make out. There are other principles involved like charity and the responsibility of the strong to help the weak. It is not as simple as the 1:1 direct relationships you make out. Much of what I have and have been given is the legacy of our fathers. I have lived in peace and security not because of my work but because 2 generations gave their tommorow so I could have my today. I help those less fortunate than myself because it is the right thing to do. I hope should they be able one day they will in turn help somebody. If not - so be it - I do what I must. I cannot look the other way and recite some proverb to the hungry man. I see nothing wrong in giving those at the bottom of the economy a leg up so they can in turn do the same for others. And if some are them are just parasites on society - so be it - I am not going to refuse to water the garden because there may be some weeds in there amonst the flowers. We will just have to agree we are from different cultures with different social values.

[steelish]

You guys are trying to nail every example with very obscure reasoning because you are clinging to the principle you have to work for everything you get. I am not disputing the value of slogans and ethics like this but they should not be seen as the sort of global laws of the universe both of you make out. There are other principles involved like charity and the responsibility of the strong to help the weak. It is not as simple as the 1:1 direct relationships you make out. Much of what I have and have been given is the legacy of our fathers. I have lived in peace and security not because of my work but because 2 generations gave their tommorow so I could have my today. I help those less fortunate than myself because it is the right thing to do. I hope should they be able one day they will in turn help somebody. If not - so be it - I do what I must. I cannot look the other way and recite some proverb to the hungry man. I see nothing wrong in giving those at the bottom of the economy a leg up so they can in turn do the same for others. And if some are them are just parasites on society - so be it - I am not going to refuse to water the garden because there may be some weeds in there amonst the flowers. We will just have to agree we are from different cultures with different social values.

No. What we are saying is there is great value in being a productive citizen if you have the ability to do so. To be able-bodied, yet choose to do nothing to contribute to society and instead to live off the efforts of your fellow man is WRONG.

[DuncanONeil]

Perhaps you are unwilling to surrender your idea that free things can be valued.
Very little in life is simple but in this forum we perforce restrict ourselves to short periods of time. Forcing short answers.
You mentioned something specific; "Much of what I have and have been given is the legacy of our fathers. I have lived in peace and security not because of my work but because 2 generations gave their tommorow so I could have my today." That kind of thought process leads me to believe there is personal aspect to the comment. If not you are way better than most. The vast majority of this country are unable to see what you just said. Some even with such a person in their family. The sad fact is that for most people history begins the day they are born.

The only real difference I can see is that you are of the opinion that people value free things and Steelish, Thorne, and I do not so opine.
Much of the past hour I have been thinking on this charitable works issue. It also has two aspects. My expending something as simple as my time and effort to assist someone through "something" is not quite the same as going over to the local homeless jungle and handing out "stuff". I am a volunteer in an organization, known to save a life of two each year. I still can see the difference in putting yourself out there and just handing out "stuff". I just can't think of a better way to phrase it!

You guys are trying to nail every example with very obscure reasoning because you are clinging to the principle you have to work for everything you get. I am not disputing the value of slogans and ethics like this but they should not be seen as the sort of global laws of the universe both of you make out. There are other principles involved like charity and the responsibility of the strong to help the weak. It is not as simple as the 1:1 direct relationships you make out. Much of what I have and have been given is the legacy of our fathers. I have lived in peace and security not because of my work but because 2 generations gave their tommorow so I could have my today. I help those less fortunate than myself because it is the right thing to do. I hope should they be able one day they will in turn help somebody. If not - so be it - I do what I must. I cannot look the other way and recite some proverb to the hungry man. I see nothing wrong in giving those at the bottom of the economy a leg up so they can in turn do the same for others. And if some are them are just parasites on society - so be it - I am not going to refuse to water the garden because there may be some weeds in there amonst the flowers. We will just have to agree we are from different cultures with different social values.