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[TantricSoul]

TantricSoul, I could have happily gone a whole lifetime without someone bringing up Chopra. I wish I could have gone a whole lifetime without that. But for some reason it doesn't surprise me that you would be the one to bring him up. He does seem to fit right into the kind of spirituality and mysticism that appeals to you.

I haven't studied him in great detail. However, what I have read , contemplated and felt through his works does seem blend harmoniously with my beliefs.

But I'm not nearly qualified, nor intelligent, enough to debunk the mystical fantasyland he creates around himself, so I'll direct you to a couple of those whose opinions I respect.

I can appreciate that you respect the authors opinions of the links you provided. They seem to fit right into your own superbly stated beliefs. I don't relate (anymore, the me of five years ago would be right behind them)to the logical based fantasyland they have build around themselves. And I find the disdain and sarcasm they use to attempt to discredit what they, and those who comment on their writings, do not understand, with absolute no evidence, to be ... well childish, in my opinion of course.

The first is Robert T. Carroll, author of The Skeptic's Dictionary, from his article on Chopra.
Of particular interest to the topic here, the existence of an afterlife, the following stands out:


The second is Dr. Phil Plait, aka The Bad Astronomer, who takes Chopra to task for his comments about skeptics.

In truth ... I was not impressed with Chopra's comments about skeptics either. Skeptics have every right to be skeptical, they are no better or worse than anybody else.

Both of these articles link to other informative sources about Chopra, spirituality and mysticism in general.

I would also like to suggest that, along with your studies of mysticism and religion, you learn about critical thinking. See how easy it is to make people believe what they deeply want to believe in the first place, how easy it is to blind people to the real world by filling their heads with nonsense just by making them feel good.

Two terms ago I received an A+ in my Listening and Critical Thinking class. I do honestly appreciate your suggestion. And there are many ways to fill a mind with nonsense, including logical ones.

Granted, there are a lot of things we can do to help ourselves, and prayer and meditation can help us to calm our minds and prioritize our thoughts, which can reduce stress and tension. But there is no reason to link that to spiritual nonsense about invisible gods taking care of us. That only clouds the issues and detracts from rational thought.

Rational thought has a place in life, as a tool, like a calculator or computer it should be shut off when other aspects of your being is needed.

Want to feel awe and wonder? Study the universe and realize that our Sun is just one of billions of stars in our average-sized galaxy. And there are billions of galaxies in the universe that we can see! How many more billions or trillions are out there that we cannot see? How many of those billions of stars have planets containing life? Even intelligent life (as we measure it)?

I agree with you wholeheartedly my friend on this point. And to think all of that wonder, is made from the same stuff we are. There is no separation between that awe inspiring universe and us, unless we create it in our minds.

Can you possibly believe that all of that was created simply to impress Humans?

No I don't believe that at all, nor anything like it.

That any possible creators have any real interest in some organic infestations on one of their planets? Sure, it might feel nice to think that, it may make you feel important to think that some powerful being is going to gather you into his arms and comfort you after having condemned you to pain and suffering on this ball of dirt. It just saddens me. It saddens me to think that so many are willing to turn aside and ignore reality just to feel a little better about themselves.

Is it your contention, as I suspect, that there is just single reality? It is my contention and te contention of many, many , others, that there are indeed trillions of realities, which one is the "one reality"?

Reality is far more beautiful, far more awesome, and far more dangerous, than any made-up nonsense we can come up with to make ourselves feel safe. Learn to live with it. Learn to enjoy it. Spend your time productively, enjoying your family and friends, seeing the world around you. Leave the gods, and the likes of Chopra, to themselves.

Replace the word reality with the word life as the first word of your paragraph, and do what ever you will with the last sentence, the rest is beautiful advice, with no daylight at all between your words and my intent.

Thorne my friend, we are far more alike many would think.

And by the way, honestly, after reading those links you posted in your response to me, I respect your own opinion moreso than what I read on those sites.

Respectfully,
Tantric

[Thorne]

Thorne my friend, we are far more alike many would think.

I wonder about that, sometimes. I can't understand how someone could pass a critical thinking course, yet still fall under the spell of someone like Chopra. While some of what he says is little more than prettied-up common knowledge, such as reducing stress and eating properly, so much of it is tied in with spiritual nonsense that defies rationality. He gives no explanations for these mystical energy flows he talks about, just expects you to believe they are there based upon his word. I can't accept that. I want evidence, testable and verifiable.

And by the way, honestly, after reading those links you posted in your response to me, I respect your own opinion moreso than what I read on those sites.

I thank you for that. I don't take everything they say on those sites as gospel. Sometimes I disagree with their approaches, or their attitudes. But the basic message, showing evidence to support your position, is one that I stand behind wholeheartedly.

Is it your contention, as I suspect, that there is just single reality? It is my contention and te contention of many, many , others, that there are indeed trillions of realities, which one is the "one reality"?

If, by reality, you mean universe, then I would have to say I don't know. I know there are some hypotheses out there about multiple universes, existing in different dimensions. Perhaps even an infinite number of them. I even saw one which proposed that it was two of these universes, ours and another, actually touching and transferring energy, which we now interpret as the big bang, the origin of the universe. While interesting, there seems to be little or no evidence of such things, except that the thought-experiments built around them seem to answer certain cosmological questions about the origins of our universe. But I've also read that they create at least as many problems as they solve, and there is no hard evidence to support them over any other claim, including the supernatural ones.

While I agree that research into such things should continue, as should research into the supernatural, I expect that there will be little real evidence to be found in either case, and they will have to remain objects of speculation and faith. But that doesn't mean we should latch onto any fanciful story which makes us feel good and declare it to be the absolute truth of the universe, as so many religions seem to do.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember the 60's (they say that if you DO remember the 60's you weren't really there) but I can remember all the silliness of the hippie culture, latching onto anything which felt good and flew in the face of authority. Drug fueled visions of goodness and light had millions of kids declaring Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land as the ultimate religious philosophy, even though it was intended as a parody of religions. I read the book and laughed at the stupidity of the characters who fell into the trap of religion, then looked around and saw how many people in real life were falling into the same trap. Including my own parents. In retrospect, I would say that the 60's, and Heinlein, and Asimov, were the beginning of my road to atheism.

As for belief systems, I don't think I have one. Atheism, as noted, is not a belief system, but a denial of belief systems. Science is not a belief system, but it does involve a certain amount of trust. I trust those scientists who know more about their subjects than I do, who have been tested and examined by other scientists. It's either that or learn everything there is to know about everything, and I don't have the time for all of that. I learn what I can and generally learn enough to understand what the scientists are saying, and trust the judgment of other, reputable scientists. If you want to call that a belief system, so be it. But I take nothing on faith, only with evidence.

And with that in mind, and getting back to the topic, I can find no credible evidence of any form of afterlife; I can find no credible evidence of any form of gods; I can find no credible reason to follow the tenets laid down in ancient books, tenets which may have made some sense at the time they were created but which have little real bearing on the modern world.

If you have the need for some form of personal god, some kind of belief system which defies rational thought, whether you want to call it a religion, or a fantasy, or a fairy tale, that's your decision to make, and I have no quarrel with that. But if you want to try to force your beliefs onto others, to infiltrate the laws of the land with your beliefs, to hide behind those beliefs while committing foul crimes against others, then I will fight you. And I won't be alone. Atheists are organizing, growing more confident, and fighting back against the institutions which have terrorized and persecuted them throughout history.

And THAT is what terrifies the believers. The fact that atheists can live good, moral lives without bending knee to their archaic belief systems fills the religious leaders with fear, because they can see that they are losing their only hold on their followers. Their gods are being shown to be impotent and unnecessary. Their power is shrinking. The need for their churches is dwindling. And there's not a damned thing they can do about it.