Should corporal punishment in schools stay legal?

[DuncanONeil]

That is easy! You want it safe? Codify the punishments. One of my Gym teachers used the hall pass to administer some punishments. I suspect they were actually faked, only from one personal instance.

I hear you. But what about safety?

"Consider a couple of examples: a high school coach in Georgia knocked a student's eyeball out of its socket to punish the student for fighting with another student. In Texas, a 14-year-old autistic special education student was smothered to death by his teacher's "restraint." The kid was placed face down on the floor and when he struggled, his teacher sat on his shoulders to keep him still. He sufficated to death."

For the first time in over 18 years, Congress held hearings in April, 2010, on the use of corporal punishment in schools, and this bill was the result of those hearings.

Here's what was revealed: every twenty seconds of the school day, a child is beaten by an educator. Every four minutes, an educator beats a child so badly that she seeks medical attention. The U.S. Department of Education reported that in the 2006 - 07 school year, 223,190 students were the victims of such school violence, and over 20,000 of these young people had to seek medical attention."

I am aware that student violence against teachers is also an safety issue, I think this is also mentioned in this article. But I wonder if you can fight violence with violence. Or whether security guards should be in here.

Teaching should not be about having to physically restrain or punish the students, that is also not fair and likely no what you were taught how to handle during your teacher's education.

What to do? About both safety issues

On a more general level: Is coporporal punisments really teaching respect?
As we say so often here, respect is earned, not demanded. So is respect learned by pain from someone bigger, or do you simply learn fear or hate?

A personal experience: I did not respect my teachers - many of them were incompetent or bad tempered. Some were darn good teachers, though, and that got my respect. There were a few sadists as well, and what they got was hate and fear, and, in me anyway, a lifelong scepticism of authority.

Maybe it would have worked, if the teachers were someone you could - respect.

[DuncanONeil]

Respect is a core value in Japan! So much so that a first grade student takes public transit to get to school, on his own.

Well, I was mostly home schooled, and the only school I ever attaneded for any length of time other than college was in japan, and they dont seem to have all that many issues with their corperal punishment policies, though I have to say they are not physical so much as pychological in their aplication there.

So maby there is a healthy medium.

[IAN 2411]

I remember when it was legal in the UK, because they were the days when all children under the age of 15 respected their elders. They respected their teachers and police priests and shop owners, the next door neighbour was called Mr or Mrs.

And the summers were always sunny, and you could get a ticket for the flicks, a fish supper and a couple of pints and still have change from a shilling. Meanwhile back in the real world, researchers for the past fifty years have been looking at actual figures and getting the same answer: the level of violent crime, and youth violence in particular, has been falling steadily in both Europe.

Sarcasm is the poorest form of wit.

And the other thing they consistently find is that violent crime is usually committed by people who were physically punished as children. As families with such childrearing practices have become more of a visible minority, it's become more evident that they are raising the next generation of criminals.
But of course this is just facts, and I don't expect it to change your beliefs.

Of course I will leo9 as soon as you tell me which England you live on, because it is not the one on my world. Every week that goes by as at least two deaths are reported and one is normally knife crime in the UK, [12-18 year olds] and there are also gang related incidents every day almost. These are the children that grew up with no discipline at home or at school so that throws your theory right out the window. Where the experts that came up with this tosh should be thrown, because they obviously know damn all.

Things have changed now the anti smacking people came and messed that right up, with their don’t hit your child it is assault, and right behind them come the police and the welfare people to take them into care. In care they are taught to look after themselves on the street, because the welfare said their parents never cared but then again their parents were never asked.

Since I know a fair bit at firsthand about the care system, I'd comment on this if I could make out what you're saying.

Then you obviously don’t know as much as you think. A friend of mine’s child at 4 years old slipped from her hand; she dropped her shopping and grabbed him with one foot in the main road just before he stepped under a lorry. She chastised him by shouting at him and gave him two light smacks with her hand on his covered buttocks. I know this to be true because i was a witness for her defence in court. A neighbour saw the incident and reported her to the police and that night the “WELFARE” with 4 policemen took the child into care. It was six months before the case came to court and she was given her child back without and bad record about her. It was heavy handed and I might add the child is still traumatised now, and she has also received substantial damages. I can understand in certain circumstances where the welfare is needed, but they at times get too far ahead of themselves.

It upset me for that day but even then it gave you status in the school. Once you were home you got a crack around the back of the head for being a head ache to your parents but by ten that night it was all forgotten. It is not unsafe, it teaches respect and that is something that is lacking in young adults today, if you are not taught respect then you will never learn respect.

I went to a school that didn't use physical punishment even when they were still allowed to. We respected the teachers because they were good teachers, not because they might thump us. The only teacher we really didn't respect was one who came in as a substitute from the local grammar school for a couple of terms: he had no idea how to deal with kids he couldn't threaten with violence. As many other posters have said, anyone who can't teach without physical punishment is a bad teacher.

Where in my post have I said we never respected the teachers, and it was not given in class because we feared them? I cannot remember the time when any teacher would thump a pupil or for that matter strike one. We did have one that was very accurate with a piece of flicked chalk, but that was all.

Regards ian 2411

[fetishdj]

I have worked in many schools, some of them quite rough inner city schools, and I have yet to see a knife or hear about a knife related crime in any of them. Most that you get in most schools is mobile phone theft and the usual bullying plus the addition of cyber bullying in the modern day.

The number of knife crimes, regardless of what the tabloids say, is actually very low and the reasons these stories get so much reportage is because of their relative unusual occurence. Also, any knife incidents are more likely related to gang culture elements, many of whom do not actually attend school at all, than the sort of kids who are at school to be disciplined. When the media is following a story they tend to focus on what they want to report rather than what is actually happening because the complete truth is often not entertaining enough to sell. This causes a skewed perception of an issue.

[denuseri]

Actually:

According to the latest annual statistics for crime in England & Wales:

A British Crime Survey reported that out of the 2,715,000 violent crimes reported; those involving use of weapons make up almost 75% of the incidents with a sharp implement making up about 27% of the reported crimes.

Overall statistics indicate that homicides have more than tripled from 1965 to today.

Around 10% of 11-12 year olds reported carrying knives last year alone and 46% of 15-17 year olds admitting to carrying knives for self defence out of neccesity.

According to Ian Johnston the Chief Constable for British Transport Police & the Justice Board / Mori in 2003:

"Pupils in London Schools carry knives on average 30-35% of the time and that 1 in 5 of 16 year old boys admit to having attacking someone with a knife with the intent of causing serious injury."

[IAN 2411]

I have worked in many schools, some of them quite rough inner city schools, and I have yet to see a knife or hear about a knife related crime in any of them. Most that you get in most schools is mobile phone theft and the usual bullying plus the addition of cyber bullying in the modern day.

Get real fetishdj it never takes place in school, and do you honestly think that a child whatever age between 10 and 18 is going to shout out to the world he carries a knife?

When the media is following a story they tend to focus on what they want to report rather than what is actually happening because the complete truth is often not entertaining enough to sell. This causes a skewed perception of an issue.

Do you honestly believe that the press would glorify death and mutilation just to make it more entertaining, that is a very shallow perception of the news reporters?

Regards ian 2411

[Thorne]

Do you honestly believe that the press would glorify death and mutilation just to make it more entertaining, that is a very shallow perception of the news reporters?

Maybe things are different in the UK, but have you ever watched a news program in the US? It sometimes seems the reporters will trample over anyone doing a good deed just to get an interview with the brother of the boyfriend of the sister of the wife of a murderer. And among the first questions will invariably be, "How could you not have known this would happen?" or some variation.

I don't watch news broadcasts anymore. They have become partisan reality shows more often than not.

I get my news from the Internet, now, where I KNOW everything is Fair and Balanced! </sarcasm>

[Lion]

Do you honestly believe that the press would glorify death and mutilation just to make it more entertaining, that is a very shallow perception of the news reporters?

Regards ian 2411

Yes.

[tdav73]

when i was a kid it was the way things were
we could take a pocket knife to school and no one minded
if you got into a fight it was just a fight no one worried that the kid that lost would bring a gun and start shooting up the place
and when the teacher was teaching you stayed quit and learned
i know its because our moms and dads teachers cared about us and set the rules down for us to follow and if we didn't we were in trouble and corporal punishment was what we got
how did any of my generation survive without airbags bike helments carrying knives car seats and the goverment telling our parents how to raise us
fyi im in my late 30's

[DuncanONeil]

And the other thing they consistently find is that violent crime is usually committed by people who were physically punished as children. As families with such childrearing practices have become more of a visible minority, it's become more evident that they are raising the next generation of criminals.

Then according to this I should be a criminal!! Hell, by most people's estimation I apparently was abused in school as well!

[DuncanONeil]

Meanwhile back in the real world, researchers for the past fifty years have been looking at actual figures and getting the same answer: the level of violent crime, and youth violence in particular, has been falling steadily in both Europe and America.

Then could you tell me how in total crime the UK is ranked 6th, with a rate of 85.5517 crimes per 1000 people?

[DuncanONeil]

Yes.

When I was in Japan, every news show had a segment called "Crime and Accidents Around the Nation". One could say it was sensationalism, but with n two or three days they followed up with the opolice catching the perp. Now that is fair and balanced!

[DuncanONeil]

when i was a kid it was the way things were
we could take a pocket knife to school and no one minded
if you got into a fight it was just a fight no one worried that the kid that lost would bring a gun and start shooting up the place
and when the teacher was teaching you stayed quit and learned
i know its because our moms and dads teachers cared about us and set the rules down for us to follow and if we didn't we were in trouble and corporal punishment was what we got
how did any of my generation survive without airbags bike helments carrying knives car seats and the goverment telling our parents how to raise us
fyi im in my late 30's

Just think how tough it was for those of us that might be twice your age! What with all those gun-totin' westerns all over the place! And a staple at the movies as well!

[Thorne]

Just think how tough it was for those of us that might be twice your age! What with all those gun-totin' westerns all over the place! And a staple at the movies as well!

That's true, Duncan. But remember, you could always tell the good guys in those movies. They were the ones with the white hats. Nowadays you can't hardly tell the good guys from the bad guys. Some of today's "heroes" are far worse than the worst bad guys faced by Hopalong Cassidy or Sky King!

[DuncanONeil]

That's true, Duncan. But remember, you could always tell the good guys in those movies. They were the ones with the white hats. Nowadays you can't hardly tell the good guys from the bad guys. Some of today's "heroes" are far worse than the worst bad guys faced by Hopalong Cassidy or Sky King!

Paladin & Zorro wore black hats!!

[Thorne]

Paladin & Zorro wore black hats!!

True, but Paladin was a hired gun. Basically, a bad guy who sometimes did good. And Zorro was a rebel, a traitor to his government. And Don Diego de la Vega, a Spanish nobleman, did wear a white hat. Or at least gray.

[DuncanONeil]

Objection! While Paladin advertised himself as a gun for hire, he acted more like a privately hired lawman than a gunslinger. Often going against the wishes of his client as to means and method. In fact it often seemed he was reluctant to pull his gun.

True, but Paladin was a hired gun. Basically, a bad guy who sometimes did good. And Zorro was a rebel, a traitor to his government. And Don Diego de la Vega, a Spanish nobleman, did wear a white hat. Or at least gray.

[Thorne]

Objection! While Paladin advertised himself as a gun for hire, he acted more like a privately hired lawman than a gunslinger. Often going against the wishes of his client as to means and method. In fact it often seemed he was reluctant to pull his gun.

I'll take your word for it. I don't remember that much about the show. It wasn't one of my favorites. But does going against the wishes of his client make him a good guy or a bad guy? Certainly it makes him a bad businessman. Or maybe he was just a frustrated politician.

[DuncanONeil]

Admittedly this was some time back. I needed to check some details.

1. Paladins emblem was the white knight from chess.
2. He endeavored to solve situations without the use of violence.

"The show followed the adventures of "Paladin" (no other name is ever given), a gentleman gunfighter (played by Richard Boone on television, and by John Dehner on radio), who preferred to settle problems without violence; yet, when forced to fight, excelled. Paladin lived in the Hotel Carlton in San Francisco, where he dressed in formal attire, ate gourmet food, and attended the opera. In fact, many who met him initially mistook him for a dandy from the East. But when working, he dressed in black, carried a derringer under his belt, used calling cards with a chess knight emblem, and wore a stereotypical western-style black gunbelt with the same chess knight symbol attached to the holster.

The knight symbol is in reference to his name — possibly a nickname or working name — and his occupation as a champion-for-hire (see Paladin). The theme song of the series refers to him as "a knight without armor." In addition, Paladin drew a parallel between his methods and the chess piece's movement: "It's a chess piece, the most versatile on the board. It can move in eight different directions, over obstacles, and it's always unexpected." Paladin's routine switch from the expensive light-colored suit of his genteel urbane persona in San Francisco to his alter ego who wears all-black attire for quests into the lawless and barren Western frontier is also a chess reference.

Paladin was a former Army officer and a graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point. He was a polyglot, capable of speaking any foreign tongue required by the plot. He also had a thorough knowledge of ancient history and classical literature, and he exhibited a strong passion for legal principles and the rule of law. Paladin was also a world traveler. His exploits had included an 1857 visit to India, where he had won the respect of the natives as a hunter of man-eating tigers."

A point, maybe important - maybe not, the knight on the business card faced left. Interesting if you know anything of heraldry.

I'll take your word for it. I don't remember that much about the show. It wasn't one of my favorites. But does going against the wishes of his client make him a good guy or a bad guy? Certainly it makes him a bad businessman. Or maybe he was just a frustrated politician.

[Thorne]

the knight on the business card faced left. Interesting if you know anything of heraldry.

I know absolutely nothing of heraldry. What little I was able to find in a short research was confusing and uninformative. I gather that facing left was termed as sinister, an obvious clue, but it depended upon which side of the shield you were on. I have been able to find nothing to explain any other significance of the knight facing left.

[DuncanONeil]

I know absolutely nothing of heraldry. What little I was able to find in a short research was confusing and uninformative. I gather that facing left was termed as sinister, an obvious clue, but it depended upon which side of the shield you were on. I have been able to find nothing to explain any other significance of the knight facing left.

The Knight is facing the sinister side. Don't really matter which side of the shield you are on sinister is the left face of the shield. The right side is called dexter and the left sinister. " * heraldry (in heraldry: The elements and grammar of heraldic design)

The terms dexter and sinister mean merely “right” and “left.” A shield is understood to be as if held by a user whom the beholder is facing. Thus the side of the shield facing the beholder’s left is the dexter, or right-hand side, and that opposite it is the sinister, or left-hand side." (Britanica)
Just thought it was interesting

[Thorne]

The terms dexter and sinister mean merely “right” and “left.” A shield is understood to be as if held by a user whom the beholder is facing. Thus the side of the shield facing the beholder’s left is the dexter, or right-hand side, and that opposite it is the sinister, or left-hand side." (Britanica)
Just thought it was interesting

LOL! Yeah, that's about what I got out of my own research. I was assuming that there was some secret meaning behind the Paladin's chess piece facing left to the observer, which would be dexter, and not sinister after all!

Now I'm REALLY confused!

[denuseri]

If it was the helmet and visor of a knight and facing a certian way it may have something to do with the title of the individual as well. If one could view the standard it would certiantly help.

[Thorne]

Ask and you shall receive!

[denuseri]

Thank you so very much kind Sir!

Now lets see....hummm...this doesn't really belong in any lind of traditional familial crests or other formats of offical heraldry from what I can tell....so...analogies in comparrison of it with such would be subjectively spurious imho.

Which way it is facing could mean well, anything really...shrugs.

<<<checks the threads topic real quick.

Having been absent for a little while from the thread I sorta lost track of how this sidebar developed.

In any event, (and this isnt just becuase I like the occasional spanking) I am all for capital punnishment in schools, we can't have enough of it if you ask me.

[Thorne]

Thank you so very much kind Sir!

You're quite welcome.

Which way it is facing could mean well, anything really...shrugs.

LOL! Yeah, that's pretty much the conclusion I'd come to myself.

In any event, (and this isnt just becuase I like the occasional spanking) I am all for capital punnishment in schools, we can't have enough of it if you ask me.

So we can expect to see more teachers getting spanked, now?

[denuseri]

Only when they are "naughty". lol

[Stealth694]

I got my tail swatted once or twice during my "growing years" it didn't hurt me ( except when I sat down )
But Today's kids will push the envelope with school, parents,, whatever because they do not fear any reprocussions.
In Madison one 15 yr old is accused of sexual assault,,, 2 13 yr olds are accused of strong arm robbery in school.
These kids think they don't have to worry about punishment because they are under 16. I wonder what they will do when they
are adults? Recently one 18 yr old was arrested for murder, turns out he had been arrested for sexual assault when he was 14.
Go Figure.

[DuncanONeil]

The orientation of the card is from the position in which you view it. The Knight is facing left, Left is sinister.

[DuncanONeil]

Not only are we teaching the young that it is never their fault, but that there are never any consequences. One of the reasons they do not do well in school! Only one!

I got my tail swatted once or twice during my "growing years" it didn't hurt me ( except when I sat down )
But Today's kids will push the envelope with school, parents,, whatever because they do not fear any reprocussions.
In Madison one 15 yr old is accused of sexual assault,,, 2 13 yr olds are accused of strong arm robbery in school.
These kids think they don't have to worry about punishment because they are under 16. I wonder what they will do when they
are adults? Recently one 18 yr old was arrested for murder, turns out he had been arrested for sexual assault when he was 14.
Go Figure.