Easter Questions

[thir]

Secondly: In some interpretations the entire creation story is allegorical with the tree of life being the ultimate goal that can only be reached by first eating one's way through the tree of knowledge. Since God is perfect, "the serpent" acting out of jealousy or not...is still doing exactly what God intended it to do (so is mankind by the way), which is prompt mankind to seek knowledge so that one day eternal life could be obtained. The act of taking the apple being one of rebellion, yet also one of seeking to be like God. After all Eve was only tempted because she was told that if she ate of it, she could indeed become like God.

I do not quite understand what you say - seeking knowledge (eating through the tree of knowledge) was the point, but not by eating the apple??

As for the alligorical angle, I learned recently that the way Danish Christians got past Darwin as it were, without loosing their faith, was to see the words of the bible as alligorical, or 'the free word'. Thus, everything had to be interpreted, and no conflict existed between the bible and Darwin. I believe other protestant sects have this view as well.

I have had thoughts about this story about Paradise and the tree of knowledge in terms of maybe we should never have eaten of it, metaphorically speaking, because our knowledge, that which in these days makes us equal to gods in that we can create life and do very many and quite alarming things, but, lacking the wisdom of god or gods, we screw it up and Earth is no garden of Eden.

Nature never was peaceful, or that is only one aspect of it, but maybe it was more like Eden than now.

Third: The overall message...that we should all become more loving and peaceful with each other and work together seeking harmony (in essence be like God wants us to be) stands alone regardless of interpretation. It is basically all about overcoming our nature's despite our inherent sinfulness and becoming enlightened and transcending mortal existence. It's not even a Christan or Jewish, or Islamic only theme either...Buddhists, Hindus and a wide wide variety of faiths ( in fact almost all religions) address such aspirations of apotheosis in like manner...as if trying to explain the same universal concept. Which is a good concept...love one another as you would wish to be loved.

Loving one another etc is a good concept. But the idea that we are born sinful (agressive, brutal, 'red in tooth and law') I do not believe. Sometimes it feels like the discussion will have it that either we are all love and sunshine, or we are all brutes! I believe in neither. I think we started out simply doing what we had to do to survive, like all the other animals.

But somewhere along the way something happened - ?? and with it, cruelty, brutality (towards our own) greed, hate, power games and all the rest.

I do not think we were 'born' with it - as in started that way as a species. But something happened.

[Thorne]

I have had thoughts about this story about Paradise and the tree of knowledge in terms of maybe we should never have eaten of it, metaphorically speaking, because our knowledge, that which in these days makes us equal to gods in that we can create life and do very many and quite alarming things, but, lacking the wisdom of god or gods, we screw it up and Earth is no garden of Eden.

Knowledge is not evil in itself. It is only in our applications of that knowledge that we find evil. But willful ignorance is far more evil. Ignorance is the birthplace of the gods. It allows people to accept supernatural explanations for perfectly natural occurrences which they do not understand. The search for knowledge allows us to throw off the supernatural and understand how the world around us works. If you accept lightning as a punishment from a god, you are always going to find yourself at the mercy of the thunderstorms. But if you study it and learn its nature, you can protect yourself with a piece of metal and some wire! It's a pretty woeful god whose wrath can be deflected by a simple lightning rod!

But the idea that we are born sinful (agressive, brutal, 'red in tooth and law') I do not believe. Sometimes it feels like the discussion will have it that either we are all love and sunshine, or we are all brutes! I believe in neither. I think we started out simply doing what we had to do to survive, like all the other animals... I do not think we were 'born' with it - as in started that way as a species. But something happened.

Sadly, I have to go along with the idea that we are born brutes. I'm having the pleasure of watching my two granddaughters grow up, having the time to really observe them that I didn't really have with my own children. And I'm finding that children are greedy, selfish and cruel on their own. We have to teach them to share and not to hit others and that they can't have everything they want. We have the capacity to be good, but it is not innate within us. It's a learning process, lifelong.

[thir]

Knowledge is not evil in itself. It is only in our applications of that knowledge that we find evil. But willful ignorance is far more evil. Ignorance is the birthplace of the gods. It allows people to accept supernatural explanations for perfectly natural occurrences which they do not understand. The search for knowledge allows us to throw off the supernatural and understand how the world around us works. If you accept lightning as a punishment from a god, you are always going to find yourself at the mercy of the thunderstorms. But if you study it and learn its nature, you can protect yourself with a piece of metal and some wire! It's a pretty woeful god whose wrath can be deflected by a simple lightning rod!

It is true that knowledge can set us free from some fears, but they can start others - like when will the vulcano in Yellowstone pop? When will worldwar 3 start? When will the virus come that will kill us all? And other sunny ideas...

The other argument was that our technology is incredible and can create many things, but without any wisdom on what to do with it. So though knowledge is not evil in itself it can be turned to evil, and so often is. Maybe we are not ready so have so much knowledge.

Sadly, I have to go along with the idea that we are born brutes. I'm having the pleasure of watching my two granddaughters grow up, having the time to really observe them that I didn't really have with my own children. And I'm finding that children are greedy, selfish and cruel on their own. We have to teach them to share and not to hit others and that they can't have everything they want. We have the capacity to be good, but it is not innate within us. It's a learning process, lifelong.

I do not see why we should be like that by nature. I have worked with children many years, and while many are like you say, they are normally not only like that, but can also be helpfull and kind to others, depending on situations and their own mood at the moment.

But aren't siblings often quite hard on each other?

[Thorne]

It is true that knowledge can set us free from some fears, but they can start others - like when will the vulcano in Yellowstone pop? When will worldwar 3 start? When will the virus come that will kill us all? And other sunny ideas...

Would being ignorant of these possibilities make them any less likely? Knowing the dangers of Yellowstone, we can at least try to get some idea of when it will pop, and perhaps do something to prepare. If nothing else, perhaps we could save some lives by starting evacuations sooner. Knowing the potential for WW3, perhaps we can find ways to prevent it from starting. By learning all we can about viruses, perhaps we can find a cure, before that supervirus kills us all. Ignorance of the Black Plague did not help the people of Europe. Indeed, their ignorance made things worse.

The other argument was that our technology is incredible and can create many things, but without any wisdom on what to do with it. So though knowledge is not evil in itself it can be turned to evil, and so often is. Maybe we are not ready so have so much knowledge.

This is, and will always be, the flip side of the knowledge coin. When the first spear was invented, it's purpose was to aid men in hunting, making for safer, surer kills, and a steadier food supply. But that spear was just as effective at killing men. Should we have remained ignorant beasts grubbing our way across the plains, feeding on the scraps left behind by the lions and jackals? I think that the positives of knowledge and advancement almost always outweigh the negatives. If our neighbor insists on making swords, perhaps we can learn to make shields.

I do not see why we should be like that by nature. I have worked with children many years, and while many are like you say, they are normally not only like that, but can also be helpfull and kind to others, depending on situations and their own mood at the moment.

Yes, they can be kind, but the selfishness is always just below the surface. I watch one of the girls playing with a toy, and inevitably the other wants it, and will try to take it. We can teach them to share, that it's wrong to take things from others. And they will learn. It takes time and patience, but they do learn.

But aren't siblings often quite hard on each other?

In this case they're cousins, but yes, siblings do tend to be hard on one another. Familiarity breeds contempt, as they say.

[thir]

It is true that knowledge can set us free from some fears, but they can start others - like when will the vulcano in Yellowstone pop? When will worldwar 3 start? When will the virus come that will kill us all? And other sunny ideas...

Would being ignorant of these possibilities make them any less likely?

Of course not - well, maybe ww3..but you said knowledge freed us from fear, and I just said there are always threaths, we cannot be freed from fear, it is part of any life, religious or not.

The other argument was that our technology is incredible and can create many things, but without any wisdom on what to do with it. So though knowledge is not evil in itself it can be turned to evil, and so often is. Maybe we are not ready so have so much knowledge.

This is, and will always be, the flip side of the knowledge coin. When the first spear was invented, it's purpose was to aid men in hunting, making for safer, surer kills, and a steadier food supply. But that spear was just as effective at killing men. Should we have remained ignorant beasts grubbing our way across the plains, feeding on the scraps left behind by the lions and jackals? I think that the positives of knowledge and advancement almost always outweigh the negatives. If our neighbor insists on making swords, perhaps we can learn to make shields.

I do not think they always do, but let's agree do disagree here, I cannot ad anything new.

[Thorne]

we cannot be freed from fear, it is part of any life, religious or not.

True, we should be fearful of being struck by lightning. Scientific knowledge lets us deal with that fear by finding ways to prevent it from striking us. It eliminates the fear that some supernatural bogeyman will strike us down if we eat meat on Fridays, or have bacon for breakfast, or some equally inane religious prohibition gets broken.

I do not think they always do

I did say almost always.

[thir]

True, we should be fearful of being struck by lightning. Scientific knowledge lets us deal with that fear by finding ways to prevent it from striking us. It eliminates the fear that some supernatural bogeyman will strike us down if we eat meat on Fridays, or have bacon for breakfast, or some equally inane religious prohibition gets broken.

What I mean here is that fear is part of our defense system, and we need it.

[thir]

I did say almost always.

Sorry about that, my mistake.