Male discrimination?

[lucy]

punish_her: Stop putting things in my mouth which I never said or shut the fuck off. I didn't say a woman should be paid when she's not working. I said that it's a short-sighted policy to punish (and yeah, I agree with js207 that punish is the wrong word. I don't have a better one, though) a woman just because she has to take a time-out to raise her kids.

Also, even though I am apparently a misandrist, I call discrimination for males on this, too. If a father decides to have children and take some time off, he faces the same problem as a mother. Having a career and spending more than just a few minutes with your kids is virtually impossible. It just happens much less that it's the father and not the woman, so we don't get to hear about it as much.

Might make sense for the individual company. Yeah, I guess it definitely does. But for a society, it's a dead end in the long run.

[Punish_her]

@punish_her: If men go at each other because they drink too much and don't know what to do with their testosterone or just because they are gangsters, that's their problem and isn't really discrimination, because, you know, men can't discriminate other men because of their sex.
If they go at me coz I'm a woman, that's my fucking problem and an altogether different matter.
Also: I didn't say there is no discrimination. I just said that it's fully understandable that women might enjoy having a floor to themselves in a hotel.

i'm not putting anything in your mouth that didn't come from it first. when men get atttacked, it's their own fault, when women get attacked, it's a great injustice. that's your view

[Punish_her]

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation

Force isn't required at all...we already for the most part in one way or another live in a gender stratified-sexually segregated society.

IE: separate locker rooms, bathing facilities and bathrooms in most public places.

The trend appears to be one of slowly becoming more and more de-segragated however. Not too long ago men and women sat on opposite sides of the Church for instance...in some societies they didn't eat meals at the same time or in the same room. In ancient Greece women were not even allowed to view any of the male events at the Olympic games.

Co-ed simply means shared...like Co-ed dorms where males and females live next too each other or in some cases even share a room.

males and females do share rooms at more liberal colleges. I had a friend who lived with 3 girls in college

also, the first olympics were in the nude, maybe the athletes got a bit shy
just imagine the five man bobsled

[Thorne]

What I like about your post is that you do not confuse 'equal' with 'identical', as many people seem to do.

Well, it's obvious that men and women aren't identical. There are physical and even mental differences. That doesn't make either sex inherently better than the other, just means that there are some things one sex can generally do better than the other. However, there are a hell of a lot more things that both can do equally well, with or without testosterone. Regardless, if you're doing the same job you should be getting the same compensation.

[Thorne]

also, the first olympics were in the nude, maybe the athletes got a bit shy
just imagine the five man bobsled

Considering that the bobsled is done in winter, on a frozen course, with the icy breeze from your speed causing every exposed nerve to shrivel, I don't think it would have been a problem. (Of course, they didn't HAVE bobsleds then, OR Winter Olympics.)

[leo9]

Very touchy subject here in the UK...I believe there is a case going through the European courts about that very fact...conjured up by a woman stating ..yes, you guessed it. "Discrimination." The question is, why would a woman want to join a gentlemen only club, when most men would be repelled by the idea of joining a men only club themselves.

Because in this country, "gentlemen's clubs" have become a way for male politicians and businessMen to network out of reach of female colleagues who might be competitors for promotions or deals. In a culture where you can only get ahead by meeting the right people, making sure you can only meet them if you're the right sex is blatant discrimination.

Basically, follow the money.

[leo9]

Well, it's obvious that men and women aren't identical. There are physical and even mental differences. That doesn't make either sex inherently better than the other, just means that there are some things one sex can generally do better than the other. However, there are a hell of a lot more things that both can do equally well, with or without testosterone. Regardless, if you're doing the same job you should be getting the same compensation.

It's about looking at the person and not the average or the stereotype. Women on average have less muscular strength (though more stamina), but professions that need strength, like the fire service, have long ago accepted that they should let anyone take the tests, and not assume that a candidate must be too weak because she doesn't have balls.

A lot of basketball players are black, because some African subraces are markedly taller than average, but that doesn't mean white men can't jump.

[Thorne]

Women on average have less muscular strength (though more stamina), but professions that need strength, like the fire service

Something I noticed yesterday while checking up about women casualties in war: it was always assumed that women couldn't handle modern fighter jets because their lower bone density and other physical aspects would make them less able to handle high-G maneuvers. When tested, though, it was determined that women (on average) could handle such stresses better than their male counterparts! Makes you wonder just how many of those things that "men can naturally do better" have been tested.

[leo9]

Or maybe if I'm unconscious in a burning building, and the average female fire fighter can't pick my limp body up, should she just call ahead for a forklift or the jaws of life?

The average female firefighter can pick your limp body up. If she couldn't, she wouldn't have qualified for the job.

You're making the textbook mistake of confusing the average with the individual. On average, women are better at organisation, but that doesn't mean you should be ruled out from any administrative post because of your sex. You might be as good as a woman...

[leo9]

Something I noticed yesterday while checking up about women casualties in war: it was always assumed that women couldn't handle modern fighter jets because their lower bone density and other physical aspects would make them less able to handle high-G maneuvers. When tested, though, it was determined that women (on average) could handle such stresses better than their male counterparts! Makes you wonder just how many of those things that "men can naturally do better" have been tested.

Thanks for that fascinating tip! And yes, there are a lot of those assumptions that nobody has checked.

I'm reminded of a case in the '60s where a black guy was refused a job in a frozen food warehouse because, you know, black people are from Africa so they can't stand cold like us.

[js207]

Why several years? There are day care institutions, and a father, mostly.

Most mothers - and indeed fathers - seem to want to spend time with their kids. Even if it means taking a cut in pay to do so. For various reasons, it's more likely to be the mother than the father doing this, particularly in the early stages: men tend not to be very good at breast feeding.

In my own family, my mother switched to working part-time as a languages teacher after I was born, having previously been a full time export manager. As a new and part-time teacher, of course she'd have been paid less than one with more experience, male or female - and that will have pulled the average for female teachers her age down slightly. I see Lucy agrees this is not "punishment"; I'm hoping we can now agree this isn't wrong, either? (Ban that, she'd have had to choose between being away from young children much more than she wanted as well as paying a babysitter, or not working at all. Obviously neither of those appealed to her.)

So, we should stop having children?

No - though that would reduce the "problem" being complained of in the short term, and eliminate it (and humanity) long term. What we should do first is understand that there are factors besides the salary at work - that, as already confirmed in academic research years ago, a large part of the "gap" in salaries is the result of different choices. Just as German cars tend to be more expensive than Korean: not because of some anti-German import tariffs, but because the German manufacturers sell into a more luxurious market segment: Mercedes, Audi, BMW versus Hyundai and co.

Back on the employment area: I have known very capable supersonic pilots, some of them female. There certainly are women who are perfectly capable of doing that job - but do as many women as men want to? I bet if you sit near a military recruiting office, you'll see more men than women going in; go to a nursing school, you'll see the opposite. Now, if you see a job advertised as "men only" or "women only" (and there are far, far more of the latter) for a reason besides actual biology (for example, sperm donation, surrogacy etc) I will agree it's wrong - but point to an occupation being largely one or the other gender as "proof" of discrimination and you'd better think again.

[lucy]

The trend appears to be one of slowly becoming more and more de-segragated however.

Not so sure about that. Proposing a return back to gender-segregated schools is still considered a sacrilege around here, but there are more and more articles and studies being published about the topic.
All, or at least most, of those studies show that nobody profits from coeducation. Not the boys, and certainly not the girls, for whose benefit coeducation first was demanded.

[Thorne]

All, or at least most, of those studies show that nobody profits from coeducation. Not the boys, and certainly not the girls, for whose benefit coeducation first was demanded.

The problem is that going to separate schools brings back the old problem of "separate but equal", which was anything but equal! I went to a co-ed high school while my brothers went to boys only high schools. I can't see any difference in the quality of education, nor did I ever notice any difficulty on my part related to being in a class with girls. I'd like to see who's doing these studies, and how comprehensive they are, before I say whether they were good or bad.

[Thorne]

but point to an occupation being largely one or the other gender as "proof" of discrimination and you'd better think again.

It's a bigger problem than that, really. Some of it has it's basis in childhood, where girls are steered towards the pretty pink toys and the dolls, while the boys are led to the trucks and sports. I recall a story (comment on a forum somewhere) about a guy who took his daughter into a toy store and she was upset because they didn't have any of the "cool" toys in the girls' section.

Even in schools, girls are encouraged to participate in traditionally girl classes, or into cheer leading instead of playing sports. That's changing, now, but some of the old stereotypes still prevail. So naturally, when a woman goes searching for work, she's going to gravitate towards more familiar areas. It may not be discrimination by the employers, but by society at large which is holding them back.

But the primary issue in the work force is the fact that, on average, women who do the same job as men, who have the same qualifications and skills, are still frequently paid at a lower rate. THAT is discrimination.

[lucy]

Actually, one of those studies found that girls from girl-only schools ventured more often into "male-dominated" professions like engineers, technicians or other fields where natural sciences play a large role.
Also, I heavily doubt that girls are told to go for pink and boys are taught to like guns. At least a large part of that behaviour is not nurture but nature. Or epigenetics.

And here some of the studies: ftp://ftp.iza.org/RePEc/Discussionpaper/dp4026.pdf
ftp://ftp.iza.org/RePEc/Discussionpaper/dp2037.pdf
http://www.hausarbeiten.de/faecher/vorschau/98149.html (in German)

[Punish_her]

Considering that the bobsled is done in winter, on a frozen course, with the icy breeze from your speed causing every exposed nerve to shrivel, I don't think it would have been a problem. (Of course, they didn't HAVE bobsleds then, OR Winter Olympics.)

they did it "cool runnings style," more of a go kart, and greece has a shit ton of hills!

[Punish_her]

The problem is that going to separate schools brings back the old problem of "separate but equal", which was anything but equal! I went to a co-ed high school while my brothers went to boys only high schools. I can't see any difference in the quality of education, nor did I ever notice any difficulty on my part related to being in a class with girls. I'd like to see who's doing these studies, and how comprehensive they are, before I say whether they were good or bad.

I would say that's because the type of education was still the same.
current education in the US is based on the Prussian system: one person dictating to a larger group of students, standardized tests, and so on.
studies typically show that boys learn better in small groups that are competitive
there'sno reason that it wouldn't "seperate, but equal" and be different. In an ideal environment, girls would not be as successful in a boys class, as boys are not as successful in a girls class, bt both classes maximize the ahcievement of the individual sexes

[Punish_her]

It's a bigger problem than that, really. Some of it has it's basis in childhood, where girls are steered towards the pretty pink toys and the dolls, while the boys are led to the trucks and sports. I recall a story (comment on a forum somewhere) about a guy who took his daughter into a toy store and she was upset because they didn't have any of the "cool" toys in the girls' section.

Even in schools, girls are encouraged to participate in traditionally girl classes, or into cheer leading instead of playing sports. That's changing, now, but some of the old stereotypes still prevail. So naturally, when a woman goes searching for work, she's going to gravitate towards more familiar areas. It may not be discrimination by the employers, but by society at large which is holding them back.

But the primary issue in the work force is the fact that, on average, women who do the same job as men, who have the same qualifications and skills, are still frequently paid at a lower rate. THAT is discrimination.

a few more points,
1) when you account for differences within the same field, ie a woman who takes no time off and has the commute roughly equal to a man and both work nearly identical hours, there is almost no variation in wage. think about it logically, if a business can hire a man for 10 $ an hour OR hire a woman for 7.50 $ an hour, nobody would ever hire a man. it does not make sense unless there'smore factors at work
2) I saw the video of the girl complaining about the toys, in my opinion, it's scripted. the father prompts her when she gets off topic.
3) Look up the Brenda/Brian case. I'll give a quick synopsis- a mother gave birth to twin boys. during circumcision, one of the boys had his penis essentially destroyed beyond all hopes of repair. the solution was to construct an artifical vagina, give the now her hormones, and raise her as a girl. in short, it was a train wreck, despite societal conditioning towards "girly" things, brenda (formerly brian) resisted tremendously- she (formerly he) insisted on peeing standing up, refused to wear dresses, and, in middle school, wanted to be a heavily tattooed, well muscled mechanic. society could not force this natural born boy to act like a girl

[Punish_her]

The average female firefighter can pick your limp body up. If she couldn't, she wouldn't have qualified for the job.

You're making the textbook mistake of confusing the average with the individual. On average, women are better at organisation, but that doesn't mean you should be ruled out from any administrative post because of your sex. You might be as good as a woman...

this assumes that the qualifications are the same for men and women. in chicago, due to political pressure and accusations of discrimination, the fire department had to remove whole sections of the test to allow more females to pass. in the us military, at every age bracket, men are required to perform at least double the amount of pushups as women, and run 2 miles in at least 3 less minutes.
while some women undoubtedly can perform as well as men, they are in the extreme minority, and it usually requires much more taining to bring them up to the same level as men.
west point monitors the physical progress of cadets, and not only do men enter with more physical ability, when they graduate, that gap has actually widened.
and yes, i hope i would not be ruled out of administration jobs because of my sex, but it would be just as wrong to lower my standards because i am a man

[Punish_her]

The point of this thread, when it started, was to discuss the possibility that there exists male discrimination. At the end of the day, our society is structured in such a way that female imperatives are valued greater than male equivalents. Feminism may have started with women’s suffrage, but it has grown to a political and societal agenda that does not seek equal treatment, but preferential treatment.
1. “Women like sports just as men” leads to Title IX, which has resulted in cutting many MENS sports program throughout the country both at the high school and college level.
2. 98% of alimony payments are from men to women though 40% of women outearn men, 90% of mothers get sole custody of the children after a divorce, 75% of women initiate divorce – the courts are fully stacked against men
3. Despite men being the victim of violence three times as often as women, there is no Violence Against Men Act.
4. Despite the majority of jobs lost during the crash in 07-08, the stimulus plan was heavily skewered towards female dominated fields
5. Despite women earning the majority of college degrees and high school, yet classroom policies and federal spending favor women’s education.
6. Despite women living longer, government spending on healthcare favors women.
7. Women can choose to keep or abort a pregnancy, but men have no say in the matter whatsoever, despite having steep implications. Legally forfeited paternity laws have been consistently struck down.
8. Women want equality in the workplace, yet they are also entitled to maternity leave
9. Women want the same privileges as men, but not the responsibilities – women may serve in the military but do not register for selective service, and before a unit is deployed, there is a considerable increase in the amount of females who become pregnant and are pardoned from deployment.
10. Many states have or are legislating for mandatory arrest laws which almost always result in men being jailed, despite physical abuse levels being nearly identical.
Think about a few situations for a minute.
1. When a girl hits a man, it’s cute or funny, excuses are made for negative behavior. When a man strikes a woman, it’s assault.
2. A woman can say in public “women are smarter than men” and it’s empowering, a man saying the opposite is a misogynist.
3. Men’s Right’s Groups are considered “extremists” by the Southern Poverty Law Center, while feminist movements are pandered to by politicians.
Women went from the PROTECTED SEX, that’s right, not abused, to equal, but they retain permission to switch back to defenseless at anytime they wish.
In short, the average American woman wants to be fiercely independent, but men are still expected to be chivalrous.
That is all I am going to say, you see that the deck is stacked against men, or you don't.

[Thorne]

1) it does not make sense unless there'smore factors at work

Except that I've actually seen it happen, a couple of times. Primarily, the persons who hired the men did so because he disliked having women in the work place, but when forced to (by law) he always paid them less.

3) Look up the Brenda/Brian case.

For clarity, it was Brenda/Bruce (Brian was the undamaged twin).

Yes, forcing a genetically male person to live as a girl would be a problem. But the question is not about what a girl is, but her preferences. If raised as a girl, given girls toys to play with, encouraged to like girly colors and things, would Brenda/Bruce reject those things in favor of more boyish toys? There's still a lot of work being done in this area, but some studies show that HOW a child is raised has a marked influence on her choices later in life.

As for standing while peeing, this is a societal preference, not a genetic predisposition. Brenda did not have a standard urethra, but urinated through a hole in her abdomen, probably through a tube. It would likely have been much easier standing!

[thir]

Co-ed simply means shared...like Co-ed dorms where males and females live next too each other or in some cases even share a room.[/B][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

ok, thanks

[thir]

Most mothers - and indeed fathers - seem to want to spend time with their kids. Even if it means taking a cut in pay to do so. For various reasons, it's more likely to be the mother than the father doing this, particularly in the early stages: men tend not to be very good at breast feeding.

In my own family, my mother switched to working part-time as a languages teacher after I was born, having previously been a full time export manager. <snip>(Ban that, she'd have had to choose between being away from young children much more than she wanted as well as paying a babysitter, or not working at all. Obviously neither of those appealed to her.)

Back on the employment area: I have known very capable supersonic pilots, some of them female. There certainly are women who are perfectly capable of doing that job - but do as many women as men want to? I bet if you sit near a military recruiting office, you'll see more men than women going in; go to a nursing school, you'll see the opposite. Now, if you see a job advertised as "men only" or "women only" (and there are far, far more of the latter) for a reason besides actual biology (for example, sperm donation, surrogacy etc) I will agree it's wrong - but point to an occupation being largely one or the other gender as "proof" of discrimination and you'd better think again.

I wonder what women would choose if they really had a choice? No daycare, no chance of going part-time with the father so the children could have maximum benefit of both? It is children, or career, end of story.

As long as these things do not exist, the women do not have choices, nor do the children, IMO, have the full benefit of a father.

[thir]

The problem is that going to separate schools brings back the old problem of "separate but equal", which was anything but equal! I went to a co-ed high school while my brothers went to boys only high schools. I can't see any difference in the quality of education, nor did I ever notice any difficulty on my part related to being in a class with girls. I'd like to see who's doing these studies, and how comprehensive they are, before I say whether they were good or bad.

So would I. And there is also the question of socialization to be considered.

[lucy]

1. “Women like sports just as men” leads to Title IX, which has resulted in cutting many MENS sports program throughout the country both at the high school and college level.

What does that mean? That funds who had been reserved for men are now spent equally on both sexes?

2. 98% of alimony payments are from men to women though 40% of women outearn men, 90% of mothers get sole custody of the children after a divorce, 75% of women initiate divorce – the courts are fully stacked against men

But alimony goes to children, not to ex-spouses, right? And, well, if you produce offspring, you got to pay. In Switzerland we have a new law which favors shared custody. It's been in place for two years and already 50% of the time an agreement on shared custody is achieved. Again, you guys seem to do it wrong.
As for the women initiating divorce: Yep. Woman are more likely to go through different phases in their life and that changes them and often the guy "lags behind", kind of. At least that's the impression I get when looking at couples a few years older than me.

3. Despite men being the victim of violence three times as often as women, there is no Violence Against Men Act.

Why not? Go for it and demand one. Seems as if women have done a better job in lobbying for their interests in the past.
That aside: We don't have such an act here and I don't think there should be one. Violence should always be treated the same, regardless of the sex of the aggressor.

5. Despite women earning the majority of college degrees and high school, yet classroom policies and federal spending favor women’s education.

Seems only logical to me, if there are more women than men in colleges, they'll get the bulk of money. 1000 female students will cost more than 100 males. There is of course also another explanation why more women than men get degrees, but I don't dare to say it here.

6. Despite women living longer, government spending on healthcare favors women.

Actually, the gap between life expectancy is closing.At least here, dunno bout the US. And the only reason why more money is spent on women is because of, TA-DAA: Women are the ones who get pregnant and live longer.
On the other hand: There is just one (1!) professor in all the German-speaking countries who does research on medical differences between the sexes. There are differences. However, women are treated the same as men, because men researched men for a long time.

7. Women can choose to keep or abort a pregnancy, but men have no say in the matter whatsoever, despite having steep implications. Legally forfeited paternity laws have been consistently struck down.

You get pregnant, you get to decide. Also, for the last 2000 years women didn't have a choice or were killed when they did chose. So maybe you guys just have to live with that for the next 2000 years. Unfair as it may seem.
Also, if a man doesn't want to have to decide, he can always practice safe sex. But it's so easy to stick your dick into a pussy without having to think about contraception, because women take care of that.

8. Women want equality in the workplace, yet they are also entitled to maternity leave

You get pregnant, you get paternity leave.
Actually, I'm all for paternity leave because it is a good thing. Look at Scandinavia. It can work.

9. Women want the same privileges as men, but not the responsibilities – women may serve in the military but do not register for selective service, and before a unit is deployed, there is a considerable increase in the amount of females who become pregnant and are pardoned from deployment.

Military? Seriously? Yawn. Military is so yesterday. It's only underclass chicks and dudes who do that anyway, no? Joking aside: You're right. While I think spending time to learn handle a tank is wasted time, I think a year of mandatory civil/military service for both sexes would be a pretty good thing.

10. Many states have or are legislating for mandatory arrest laws which almost always result in men being jailed, despite physical abuse levels being nearly identical.

Right, that's stupid. Change those stupid laws. Vote for different politicians. Or emigrate. There are places in this world where this doesn't happen.

3. Men’s Right’s Groups are considered “extremists” by the Southern Poverty Law Center, while feminist movements are pandered to by politicians.

Again, this seems to be a problem mainly in the US of A. Also, I've been called all sorts of names by anti-feminists.

All in all: I think most of the problems you raise here (some of which really are problems) are rather unique to the US of A. It's up to you to change that.

[thir]

Actually, one of those studies found that girls from girl-only schools ventured more often into "male-dominated" professions like engineers, technicians or other fields where natural sciences play a large role.

Interesting/

Also, I heavily doubt that girls are told to go for pink and boys are taught to like guns. At least a large part of that behaviour is not nurture but nature. Or epigenetics.

Doubt no more. Here they are not only taught, they are forced - no choices!

[thir]

a few more points,
1) when you account for differences within the same field, ie a woman who takes no time off and has the commute roughly equal to a man and both work nearly identical hours, there is almost no variation in wage. think about it logically, if a business can hire a man for 10 $ an hour OR hire a woman for 7.50 $ an hour, nobody would ever hire a man. it does not make sense unless there'smore factors at work

there are other factors at work. In DK in 2010 the difference in pay was 17.7%, which seemed about the average for Europe, and the equal work-equal pay campaign went on.

US:
• " ‘The wage gap hasn't moved significantly in nearly a decade’

For ever dollar a man makes in California, a woman holding the same job is paid 84 cents, according to a new report from the American Association of University Women.

California ties with Vermont for the 84 percent earnings ratio, the report says. In Washington, D.C., where equal pay laws and regulations have been formulated, the gap is the least – 91 cents for every dollar a man makes in the same job, the report says.

The state with the worst earnings ratio is Wyoming, where women make 64 percent of men's earnings.

The national average puts women at just 77 percent."
http://www.centralvalleybusinesstime.../001/?ID=20814

2) I saw the video of the girl complaining about the toys, in my opinion, it's scripted. the father prompts her when she gets off topic.

How convincing, one example. What is that supposed to show?

3) Look up the Brenda/Brian case. I'll give a quick synopsis- a mother gave birth to twin boys. during circumcision, one of the boys had his penis essentially destroyed beyond all hopes of repair. the solution was to construct an artifical vagina, give the now her hormones, and raise her as a girl. in short, it was a train wreck, despite societal conditioning towards "girly" things, brenda (formerly brian) resisted tremendously- she (formerly he) insisted on peeing standing up, refused to wear dresses, and, in middle school, wanted to be a heavily tattooed, well muscled mechanic. society could not force this natural born boy to act like a girl

What is your point?

[thir]

The point of this thread, when it started, was to discuss the possibility that there exists male discrimination. At the end of the day, our society is structured in such a way that female imperatives are valued greater than male equivalents. Feminism may have started with women’s suffrage, but it has grown to a political and societal agenda that does not seek equal treatment, but preferential treatment.

1. “Women like sports just as men” leads to Title IX, which has resulted in cutting many MENS sports program throughout the country both at the high school and college level.

Was that to make room for women? In that case, don't you think it is fair to share the time?

2. 98% of alimony payments are from men to women though 40% of women outearn men,

I am surprised about the 40 %, but if true, surely that is wrong.


90% of mothers get sole custody of the children after a divorce,

Also wrong, although in many many cases the women are the ones looking after the kids, as you have made very clear.

75% of women initiate divorce – the courts are fully stacked against men

I do not see that the fact that many more women than men initiate divorce is a sign of discrimination againts men - what do you mean here?


3. Despite men being the victim of violence three times as often as women, there is no Violence Against Men Act.


I am surprised at those numbers, unless they also contain men against men as Lucy said, in which case it can hardly be said to be a discrimination, any more than violence by women against women.

4. Despite the majority of jobs lost during the crash in 07-08, the stimulus plan was heavily skewered towards female dominated fields

If the situation was like in Europe, that would be because of the fact that women were worst hit in the first place - part time workers, you know.

5. Despite women earning the majority of college degrees and high school, yet classroom policies and federal spending favor women’s education.

How?

6. Despite women living longer, government spending on healthcare favors women.

How?

7. Women can choose to keep or abort a pregnancy, but men have no say in the matter whatsoever, despite having steep implications. Legally forfeited paternity laws have been consistently struck down.

That is indeed a complicated problem!

8. Women want equality in the workplace, yet they are also entitled to maternity leave

A country needs new generations.

9. Women want the same privileges as men, but not the responsibilities – women may serve in the military but do not register for selective service, and before a unit is deployed, there is a considerable increase in the amount of females who become pregnant and are pardoned from deployment.

What is selective service?

10. Many states have or are legislating for mandatory arrest laws which almost always result in men being jailed, despite physical abuse levels being nearly identical.


There is a problem with violence towards men, not easily solved. But you make so much of the physical difference - how can so many women beat up the much stronger men??


Think about a few situations for a minute.

1. When a girl hits a man, it’s cute or funny, excuses are made for negative behavior. When a man strikes a woman, it’s assault.

I agree with you here, absolutely.

2. A woman can say in public “women are smarter than men” and it’s empowering, a man saying the opposite is a misogynist.

You have a point here as well.

3. Men’s Right’s Groups are considered “extremists” by the Southern Poverty Law Center, while feminist movements are pandered to by politicians.

That I do not know about.

Women went from the PROTECTED SEX, that’s right, not abused,

I am sure women were protected to some extent, some classes of women anyway, but also without much influence. But do you seriously mean to say that no women are abused??


to equal, but they retain permission to switch back to defenseless at anytime they wish.


I think there is something in this, and that is not right. Equal rights, equal responsibilities.

In short, the average American woman wants to be fiercely independent, but men are still expected to be chivalrous.


Well, not here anyway, I can assure you no men in DK know the meaning of the word ;-)
Women are not so fiercely independant, it is more kind of normal.

That is all I am going to say, you see that the deck is stacked against men, or you don't.

There are definitly some areas, like with children especially, same conditions here, and it isn't right. Also the weirdly bigger tolerance towards women's behavour in some situations, frankly I do not understand it at all.
But the rest I admit I cannot see.

[Punish_her]

alimony and child support are different.child support goes to children, alimony is considered "spousal support," and is awarded in a divorce and there are no children, and it is to be paid typically until the receiving partner remarries. child support only goes until the child is 18. some divorce settlements require both to be paid.

[Punish_her]

and i didnt mean that there'smore spending on women because they are already in college: there are more subsidies and grants available for women than men