Trust (or lack thereof)

[lily27]

This is a spinoff from another thread. I am not meaning to discuss the details of another's relationship that I am not privy to, nor even name names, but those in question are free to out themselves if they wish (and I am sure you will know who you are).

In a relationship, D/s or otherwise, who is responsible when it comes to trust? Does trust need to be earned, or is it something that should be freely given?

If there is mistrust, who is at fault? The person who has the feelings of doubt, or the one is isn't being trusted?

What if there aren't any reasons to be mistrustful, but it is just a result of insecurity? How is this best dealt with?

What happens when blind trust is provided, but undeserved?

Is it enough to just say "trust me?"

More specific to a D/s context, what if a Dom states that if his sub does not trust him, she will be released?

Please don't feel like you need to answer all of the questions... this is just a few topics to get started with.

[casie1124]

In a relationship, D/s or otherwise, who is responsible when it comes to trust? Does trust need to be earned, or is it something that should be freely given?
I don't think trust should ever be given freely. Being trust worthy is a quality one must prove they have
If there is mistrust, who is at fault? The person who has the feelings of doubt, or the one is isn't being trusted?Depends on the situation if the person not being trusted gave the other a valid reason not to trust them than thats on them, however if the person who is not trusted has done nothing and the person not trusting them is doing so out of insecruity or whatever reason than then it is on them and their problem.

What if there aren't any reasons to be mistrustful, but it is just a result of insecurity? How is this best dealt with?Again depends on the person and situation. The only thing you can do is try to reassure them you are trust worthy. If that don't work then typically the relationship doesn't work

What happens when blind trust is provided, but undeserved?In some cases that person may turn out to be trusth worthy and nothing happens. Other times the person may turn out to be incredibly untrustworthy then in the end you end up either in a physically, or emotionally dangerous situation.

Is it enough to just say "trust me?" In my opionon no.l

More specific to a D/s context, what if a Dom states that if his sub does not trust him, she will be released? Thats understandable all relationships require trust if it's not there it won't work. If the dom has done everything in their power to prove their they are to be trusted and the sub still can't bring her self around she probably isn't ready for the relationship anyhow

.

Casie

[butterflySlave4u]

wow....big topic...

To say that trust needs to be earned, IMO, is to put both partners on an equal footing. And the key there is communication. There has to be alot of "well, what do you think?" type talk involved. And as far as to have it "freely" given, i would think that it can't be. It's normal to be leery of a stranger, that's just human nature. To talk, to grow with, and even within, one another is a wonderful thing.

Also, the insecurity factor. Does he really mean what he says? Did she actually do what she said she would do? Again, communication is key. It's a process. Does the Golden Rule come into play? Of course it does...do unto others. If there's suspicion, bring it up, at the appropriate time, and ask to talk it out. If your partner won't discuss it, or dismisses your suspicions, maybe it's time to part ways. You're entitled to feel secure within the relationship.

As for a Dom's take on whether or not to release a sub on the basis that she claims to not trust him, that is best left to a Dom, i'd suppose, and i can imagine that a few will weigh in on this for you, lily. There are many wise Dom/mes here that can help.

[gemmy]

In a relationship, D/s or otherwise, who is responsible when it comes to trust?

Both parties are responsible to do their part in being trust-worthy and being able to trust

Does trust need to be earned, or is it something that should be freely given?

To me, trust Must be earned - there is an olive branch of it offered, in hopes they will be but true, full trust from me isn't given until I know they can accept it responsibly

If there is mistrust, who is at fault? The person who has the feelings of doubt, or the one is isn't being trusted?

Again both sides are - One side in not clearing any thoughts that have led to the mis-trust and the other side in not being responsible enough to show there are no reasons to mistrust

What if there aren't any reasons to be mistrustful, but it is just a result of insecurity? How is this best dealt with?

To me all things belong on both sides simply (in almost all things, trust included as it is not a one-sided thing) - one side tries to work on their insecurity by communicating it and the other side tries to understand and help with communication and patience. What happens when blind trust is provided, but undeserved?

Is it enough to just say "trust me?"

That statement would only hold true for me if I had already agreed to put my full trust with them, then questioning after the fact is a bit of a lie on my part in that I commited to something I didn't mean Blind trust however, is a hard earned thing for me but truly once given, it's implicit. If it is underserved, it will rear it's ugly head soon enough and will hurt the person deeply but unfortunately that's just part of life and the scum in it.

More specific to a D/s context, what if a Dom states that if his sub does not trust him, she will be released?

It's individual of course and always based on a case by case basis but I don't think anyone can say that in a general statement - I get that no one wants to be mistrusted but if you have to be angered everytime at being questioned, I would see it as defensive your part and maybe there is a reason you feel threatened by the mistrust; like maybe it is well placed and you don't like it being pointed out?

Please don't feel like you need to answer all of the questions... this is just a few topics to get started with.

hehehe - It's a great topic lily

[Warbaby1943]

Trust should never be a given, it should not be expected or demanded without earning it. It should always be earned and once that trust is broken, for whatever reason, it is hard to get back. I think we all know that though, don't we? This goes for all parties involved in my opinion. I could no sooner demand that anyone trust me then I could that they respect me.

Each relationship is as unique as the next but in every one that is successful communication plays an extremely large part in that success. By getting to know someone you then can decide if you trust them or not. I don't feel asking a question of them is breaking that trust at all or do I feel it is a misuse of anyone's right to privacy if they are involved with each other.

[gemmy]

Thats understandable all relationships require trust if it's not there it won't work. If the dom has done everything in their power to prove their they are to be trusted and the sub still can't bring her self around she probably isn't ready for the relationship anyhow

I completely agree here as I know some people just cannot help themselves and have to needle it all to death and it becomes far too wearing on the relationship but this is something that should become quite clear rather quickly I would imagine. Also, if they have progressed with time and patience into the relationship, then said sub shouldn't have been collared to begin with

[Ozme52]

I guess I'm going to be, in part, odd man out.

I think that trust is always given until the person proves it isn't deserved. That doesn't mean one must immediately offer unconditional trust, but how can I prove to you, for example, that I tell the truth. If you don't trust me until I prove it... then you, by default, are disbelieving that simple statement. I have no way to prove anything online. Now you have to come meet me just to find out if I'm trustworthy.

Same holds true on the dom's side. If you agree to do an online task I will trust that you actually did it and are not just saying you did it.

And truth of the matter, you ALL do this. Look at the converse. I'll take cassie's statement.

I don't think trust should ever be given freely. Being trust worthy is a quality one must prove they have.

We've never met. Haven't talked in the forum or chat. Your first statement says I shouldn't trust your second statement. In fact, your first statement suggests I should believe your first statement is a lie... until you prove to me I can trust you.

No, trust is always given, and the level of trust grows so long as the person doesn't violate the trust.

[Sir_Russell]

I grow tired of this. Simple put I released her because she had proven to me that no matter how trustworthy I was she would all ways doubt me. That is not anything I can live with.

Let me brag if you will. I am a fairly decent looking man that can carry on a conversation with damn near anyone. I do flirt a little and enjoy it when it is given back.

That being said I have spent the worst 6 months of my life living F2F with a sub that decided that if I was a few minutes late from work, or if a female called that had a problem and needed my help she would act as if I had cheated on her. Lol, picture the scene that you can have in 15 minutes.

I told her my ground rules from the get go and the largest don't do was just this. Hell I have been a swinger and a musician that got laid a lot after shows. I told her that I will tell her before hand if there was anything sexual going to happen between me and whoever. I did just that.

So is a Dom supposed to accept his submissive distrust endure the disrespect that comes from that? I won't.

Since we were never together physically it was better to end this now then later.

If you a Dom and this doesn't bother you then believe me she is a real find. Smart, sexy, intelligent and many other wonderful qualities.

[annie]

I grow tired of this. Simple put...

Russell,

No reason to explain your why's or anything else to anyone else. This is a personal matter between the two of you which never should have been made public fodder to begin with.

If some expect reasons, explanations, etc. then that is their issue alone. We are each free to think and judge as we see fit and no matter what is said or done none of us were there (except the 2 of you) and so additional input from others isn't only not needed it is unnecessary, imho.

Personally for me... my feelings on trust are based not only on what is said but also how one acts. And I agree with Oz, trust is given until a reason is given not to trust. It may be initial and hesitant trust but until proven as a mistake in judgment (my judgment) it is given. Over time that trust will either be confirmed and deepened or it will be disproven. But, once again that will be based on my experience with the person and not on some others thoughts, etc.

So... agreeing with Oz I guess makes me "odd subbie out" but what else is new... *laughs*

[Euryleia]

In a relationship, D/s or otherwise, who is responsible when it comes to trust? Does trust need to be earned, or is it something that should be freely given?

I believe that trust is given. If you want to be considered trustworthy, you must trust others. It is the responsibility of all parties to make trust the first offering to the new relationship.

If there is mistrust, who is at fault? The person who has the feelings of doubt, or the one who isn't being trusted?

It depends. If you are projecting your hurt from previous relationships onto someone who hasn't violated your trust, then you are at fault. Sure, we've all been burned. The trick is not to extrapolate from the actions of people in our past to everyone else in our future.

What if there aren't any reasons to be mistrustful, but it is just a result of insecurity? How is this best dealt with?

With open and honest communication. Identify what is triggering the mistrust and share your insecurity with your partner. You can also just get over yourself. If you want to be more trusted, you need to be more focused on the needs of others.

What happens when blind trust is provided, but undeserved?

Just because I think trust should be given, doesn't mean I believe in blindly trusting the undeserving. As my Father was fond of saying, "Trust but verify."

Is it enough to just say "trust me?"

I think that strength grows from vulnerability. Just saying 'trust me' implies that you are without faults or doubts. It is better to admit you don’t know all the answers and be receptive to the opinions and ideas of others. They'll trust you more for having done so.

More specific to a D/s context, what if a Dom states that if his sub does not trust him, she will be released?

If the Dom/me has clearly stated their expectations and the sub is unable to comply, then they should be released. Remember, one way to encourage trust is to be dependable. Do what you say you will do.

[lily27]

Back to the topic at hand....

I think trust is a two-way street. Whenever you start a new relationship, you have to take a certain leap of faith and put a certain amount of trust in the other person. After that it becomes a bit of a wait and see situation... it just takes time for that trust level to increase.

When it comes to building trust, for me it is about consistancy. Do what you say you are going to do. Be where you say you are going. Be open and honest with each other, and don't try to hide anything.

We do all bring in our own baggage into any relationship. Some of us may have issues trusting others due to betrayals we have had in our pasts. Some others may have issues around being trusted. You have to determine for yourself if a relationship is worthwhile working though things.

That being said, I don't think trust can be asked for, and I definitely don't think it can be demanded. It has to be built.

Due to my own past, I tend to be fairly suspicious of new people. I give them a basic level of trust, but am usually waiting for the other shoe to drop. When Master and I first started seeing each other, there were other outside reasons as well that made me nervous. But he waited me out. He never had to do anything specific to "prove" his trustworthiness or anything, he was just consistant. He called when he said he would. He was there when I needed him. And he always told me the truth.

We now have a very high level of trust between us, but every once in a while my little voice of doubt will creep in again. He always calls me on it, and manages to show me how silly I am being. But he never gets upset about it, it is just something we talk about and move on.

[Warbaby1943]

Back to the topic at hand....

I think trust is a two-way street. Whenever you start a new relationship, you have to take a certain leap of faith and put a certain amount of trust in the other person. After that it becomes a bit of a wait and see situation... it just takes time for that trust level to increase.

When it comes to building trust, for me it is about consistancy. Do what you say you are going to do. Be where you say you are going. Be open and honest with each other, and don't try to hide anything.

We do all bring in our own baggage into any relationship. Some of us may have issues trusting others due to betrayals we have had in our pasts. Some others may have issues around being trusted. You have to determine for yourself if a relationship is worthwhile working though things.

That being said, I don't think trust can be asked for, and I definitely don't think it can be demanded. It has to be built.

Due to my own past, I tend to be fairly suspicious of new people. I give them a basic level of trust, but am usually waiting for the other shoe to drop. When Master and I first started seeing each other, there were other outside reasons as well that made me nervous. But he waited me out. He never had to do anything specific to "prove" his trustworthiness or anything, he was just consistant. He called when he said he would. He was there when I needed him. And he always told me the truth.

We now have a very high level of trust between us, but every once in a while my little voice of doubt will creep in again. He always calls me on it, and manages to show me how silly I am being. But he never gets upset about it, it is just something we talk about and move on.

Unless I misunderstand you built that level of trust over time.

[annie]

Back to the topic at hand....

I think trust is a two-way street. Whenever you start a new relationship, you have to take a certain leap of faith and put a certain amount of trust in the other person. After that it becomes a bit of a wait and see situation... it just takes time for that trust level to increase.

When it comes to building trust, for me it is about consistancy. Do what you say you are going to do. Be where you say you are going. Be open and honest with each other, and don't try to hide anything.

Exactly lily... trust is a two way street and even in a new relationship there is a certain level of trust that is given initially. It either develops further over time or it doesn't although what develops that trust is different for different people I'm sure. Although I have to agree with you that consistency is a big point for me as well.

[tessa]

And then there are those who wouldn't trust their secrets with a dead man locked in a coffin 6 feet under. Real buggers to deal with, that lot.

Trust is, in many ways, only imagined. It's more of a belief in another. And people make that belief work for them. Or they don't. It all depends on what a person will choose to believe.

Why trust? - that's my question of the day.

[Ozme52]

Why trust? - that's my question of the day.

Because to do otherwise will totally isolate you.
We don't fare well when we're alone.

[Alex Bragi]

Because to do otherwise will totally isolate you.
We don't fare well when we're alone.

Exquisitely succinct.

[jeanne]

So... agreeing with Oz I guess makes me "odd subbie out" but what else is new... *laughs*

Me too, annie. I refuse to live my life suspicious of others until they 'prove' themselves to me. I feel sorry for those that do, which leads into Oz's comment below...

Because to do otherwise will totally isolate you.
We don't fare well when we're alone.

Exactly.

[TomOfSweden]

I think Warbaby and Tessa summed it up for me.

I require that I can trust my partner in a relationship. So I just do. I assume everything that flows from her mouth is divine truth and that her actions are noble. Why? Because it gives me peace of mind.

I don't look for inconsistencies in behaviour, and if I'd find proof anyway, I wouldn't start a whole blame circus. I'd just end it. Say I'm not in love any more, (which then would be true) and move. on.

I choose to be naive and I have been taken advantage of. But I think that in the long run, it's worth it.

And now I've met a woman with the same attitude. I've never heard a sentence of questioning my sincerity from her mouth, and she's never heard any from mine. And I'd never accept anything less.

Trust in a relationship is for me critical. If my slave/gf/wife doesn't trust me, the relationship is as far as I'm concerned over. So is it if I don't trust her. I don't care if she's got baggage. So have I. So has everybody. I wouldn't get involved with anybody who hasn't gotten over it already.

[orangeblossoms]

I agree with Tom completely, thats how I choose to live my life or better said how I just happen to live my life, bc I dont really know any other way, some people have told me that its not the most intelligent idea, b/c it makes me quite vulnerable, and I have been through some terrible experiences because I blindly trust. But I just cant help it, and although I do belive that trust has to be earned, with my owner, there wasnt so much earning, more that he exudes trustworthyness, and its really easy to just be able to completely trust his judgement. I know that what he says I should do is whats best for me and I do not question it. And I agree baggage or not, you have to be willing to have faith in the person, b/c otherwise you're dooming all your relationships to fail.

[Warbaby1943]

I agree with Tom completely, thats how I choose to live my life or better said how I just happen to live my life, bc I dont really know any other way, some people have told me that its not the most intelligent idea, b/c it makes me quite vulnerable, and I have been through some terrible experiences because I blindly trust. But I just cant help it, and although I do belive that trust has to be earned, with my owner, there wasnt so much earning, more that he exudes trustworthyness, and its really easy to just be able to completely trust his judgement. I know that what he says I should do is whats best for me and I do not question it. And I agree baggage or not, you have to be willing to have faith in the person, b/c otherwise you're dooming all your relationships to fail.

By you learning that he could be trusted I believe he earned your trust, wouldn't you say?

[stripedangel]

Chiming in.....with regard to the questions at hand....

If a sub cannot trust her Dom, for whatever reason, or vise/versa, the collar should come off. What kind of relationship would that be?? How can you call someone "friend," (and for pete's sake, "Sir" or "Ma'am") without trust?

If all is agreeable for an open relationship, why is there a fuss when one partner goes out? Because the other partner thought they could change that, maybe? Sounds like someone was dishonest in the first place, then.

Would you want to question everything in a relationship? Everything....who's that phone call from, or text? Why did it take so long coming home from work?

It gets worse, too.

Then when you break up and get into another relationship, the questions arise all over again.

Trust is the basis of all serious relationships. Sister/brother, friendships, marriage, and D/s ...

But if you can't trust, you should stop, find out why, and deal with it.

[DowntownAmber]

Though not specifically answering the OP's questions, I'm going to chime in with something I see cropping up in a few responses: that trust needs to be built up over time.

Sure.

Of course.

But so does mistrust.

When I enter into a relationship, do I immediately trust the other person with the deepest secrets of my being? Hell no. But if they're a little late or get a call from a gal that I don't know, do I come unwound? Again, Hell no. A relationship starts a on clean slate: there should be no reason to implicity trust OR mistrust a person until they give you reason to in either direction.

I had a relationship for a period of time with a "gentleman" that questioned my relationships with my male friends and asked for proof of my whereabouts if I were late or otherwise off the agenda I had started my day with. He would justify his behavior by saying, "if you were doing what you were supposed to be doing it shouldn't matter that I ask," or, "you need to understand that my trust has to be earned." Yeah... My response to that was that his mistrust should have to be earned too and jumping hoops to nurture his insecurities wasn't AT ALL what I wanted out of relationship. We talked about it, we talked about it once more, then he got released, so to speak, and I've never regretted that.

[stripedangel]

Right, seems like another example of a good reason to stop and deal with those isuues.

My ex husband used to accuse me of cheating...later on, I found out he was cheating, the bastard. His own guilt had him accusing me.

There are many reasons to distrust someone, and that someone usually earns it.

[cadence]

I will openly admit that I do have trust issues, but not in the way everyone is speaking of here.

I am not accusatory, jealous or insecure about things. Well sometimes I am insecure, but that is a whole different story.

Maybe I meet the wrong people in life, because I find most of the ones I do meet to be shallow, and that causes me to mistrust in general.

I tend to keep a barrier between myself and others, and I take a long time to let it down and be completely comfortable.
Maybe I have issues?
Probably, but I do trust, because if I didn't I would drive myself over the edge.
And if I didn't I wouldn't be able to form the relationships with others that I have.
It just takes me a lot longer than most.

I suppose I should add that relationships are meant to grow and nurture, you have to let your guard down and go with the flow.

[Ozme52]

Exquisitely succinct.

[orangeblossoms]

By you learning that he could be trusted I believe he earned your trust, wouldn't you say?

Definitely, but it was a lot easier, b/c I never had to even remotely think or question his motives behind certain things, and to this day, he's proved to be rock solid. I was in a relationship before my current one where every day there was something shady, and in that case, my trusting nature led to me stick around way too long and get really hurt in the end. But you learn...

[orangeblossoms]

Though not specifically answering the OP's questions, I'm going to chime in with something I see cropping up in a few responses: that trust needs to be built up over time.

Sure.

Of course.

But so does mistrust.

When I enter into a relationship, do I immediately trust the other person with the deepest secrets of my being? Hell no. But if they're a little late or get a call from a gal that I don't know, do I come unwound? Again, Hell no. A relationship starts a on clean slate: there should be no reason to implicity trust OR mistrust a person until they give you reason to in either direction.

I had a relationship for a period of time with a "gentleman" that questioned my relationships with my male friends and asked for proof of my whereabouts if I were late or otherwise off the agenda I had started my day with. He would justify his behavior by saying, "if you were doing what you were supposed to be doing it shouldn't matter that I ask," or, "you need to understand that my trust has to be earned." Yeah... My response to that was that his mistrust should have to be earned too and jumping hoops to nurture his insecurities wasn't AT ALL what I wanted out of relationship. We talked about it, we talked about it once more, then he got released, so to speak, and I've never regretted that.

The same exact thing happened to me, and he constantly needed me to go through ridiculous things not only for him not to feel insecure but so that he felt like a proper dom, just wasnt healthy at all, unfortunetly my relationship didnt end as easily as yours sounded, b/c he was unwilling to see that he was just completely psycho, and treating me like I was just a robot that had to please...

[TomOfSweden]

I tend to keep a barrier between myself and others, and I take a long time to let it down and be completely comfortable.
Maybe I have issues?

I'd label your behaviour as smart, and mine as naive. Of course, if you have a distrusting nature you won't be taken for a fool as easily. But I'm still going for my naivety. Even though it's cost me in all kinds of ways, within relationships and without. I like to trust people.

For me it's simply a question of peace of mind. Being the smartest isn't always the best.

Just do what works for you. If you're so distrusting you're pushing men you'd like to be with away... well... then you've got issues. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about it. Changing our nature is, if at all possible, lots of hard work. Better to work with what you've got.

If you're inclined to being distrusting, then tell it to your guy. And just tell him, that if he wants to make you happy, there are things he needs to refrain from doing. Things that trigger your fears. As long as he does those, you'll have peace of mind and everything is great. Of course you have to give him something in return. Putting up with ones partners annoying features, (which we all have) is down to give and take, isn't it?

But if you're always distrusting no matter what he does. Then it's issues. Then it shouldn't be expressed at all, other than just explaining that you're having one of your "psycho episodes" and you just need a hug, or what ever works for you. Because if you express it, you'll just wear him down, and he'll become resentful. Just like Russell told us in his story, right?

[Flaming_Redhead]

In a relationship, D/s or otherwise, who is responsible when it comes to trust? Does trust need to be earned, or is it something that should be freely given?

In a relationship, both parties are responsible when it comes to trust. Some amount of trust should be freely given, as much as you are comfortable with, but that doesn't necessitate that you follow blindly.

If there is mistrust, who is at fault? The person who has the feelings of doubt, or the one is isn't being trusted?

If there is mistrust, it usually occurs because of a situation or misunderstanding between those involved which is where communication becomes important. Who is to blame depends on the situation.

What if there aren't any reasons to be mistrustful, but it is just a result of insecurity? How is this best dealt with?

I wouldn't go so far as to say there aren't ever any reasons to be mistrustful or insecure. I know I have my reasons. It doesn't excuse an overreaction, either on my part or his. It is best dealt with by communicating your feelings and, hopefully, having your fears laid to rest. If every time you try to discuss how you feel and get berated for it, it doesn't help the situation for either involved.

What happens when blind trust is provided, but undeserved?

In my experience, bad things usually happen.

Is it enough to just say "trust me?"

It will never be enough for me to hear that. I have to see it to believe it.

More specific to a D/s context, what if a Dom states that if his sub does not trust him, she will be released?

That's his choice. If, after a time, the trust isn't growing between them, it's probably best to call the whole thing off.

Many here have made very good and valid points. For myself, I know I have issues. In my mind, my fears are not unfounded. I'm not the type to accuse anyone of cheating, etc., or go ballistic without due cause, and I'm actually very forgiving and understanding. However, when someone hits a wall and decides there's no hope without actually making any effort to correct the behavior which is causing the bad feelings, I'm not willing to take all the blame.

I'm worth a fucking phone call, damn it! *cries*

[DowntownAmber]

The same exact thing happened to me, and he constantly needed me to go through ridiculous things not only for him not to feel insecure but so that he felt like a proper dom, just wasnt healthy at all, unfortunetly my relationship didnt end as easily as yours sounded, b/c he was unwilling to see that he was just completely psycho, and treating me like I was just a robot that had to please...

Mine didn't end easily at all... Nearly two months after the fact, he walked in my front door, tackled me, and kicked the s*** outta' me. Not a great way to spend three hours of one's life, we'll put it that way. However, the experience drives home the point that people who are insecure (regardless of their experiences with their current partner) tend to have issues that deeper attempts at trust building often fail to correct.

Cadence chimed in with a great point, that she is slow to offer trust and, frankly, so am I. However, there is a HUGE difference between lack of trust, and mistrust. I stated before and I'll mention again: both trust AND mistrust have to be earned. Like Cadence, I am slow to give up the core of who I am to people. It's hard, and it requires my partner to show patience. But there's a big difference between holding your own cards close to the vest for awhile and jumping all over another person for suspected indiscretions.