D/s outside one's marriage

[gloombunny]

From time to time I read things on the internet from people who are married, but also have a dom or a sub who isn't their spouse, often just online. And often it seems like the spouse doesn't know about it.

I'm trying not to be accusatory here, but... I don't get it. How is this not simple adultery/cheating? What am I missing about the relationships that makes this sort of thing acceptable?

[tainted Angel]

I would say that if the spouse doesn't know it's cheating no matter how you sugar coat it.

For relationships where one partner is not 'into' the D/s in the way that the other is there may be a place for an online componant, not always a sexual one. I would say that if it is not something that is talked through and agreed by both parties then it is cheating.

[Ironwulf]

Your post seems to be making a lot of assumptions.

You do not describe what you mean by cheating? How does one commit adultery online? What do you mean by relationships?

Why is it not acceptable to have a relationship with someone outside of marriage. If I had BDSM friends before I was married is it not alright to still have them afterwards? Is cheating just the act of knowing someone without the partner knowing them too?

While you did not say it directly, I got the feeling that you also assume that a BDSM relationship must include sexual intercourse. Many people have need in their life for a D/s relationship that is not dependant on sexual intercourse.

I personally do not think that causing any sexual stimulation during a session is commiting adultery or cheating. Especially when that partner then returns home with probably a greater sexual desire and certainly a greater sense of well being then when they left.

I would think a husband/wife would be happy to have his/her wife/husband racing home to jump his/her bones after a session with a good master/mistress.

Lets see what others have to say...

[Guest 91108]

I'm lucky in that the wife knows i need people to keep my head busy when she is working. She knows everything pretty much that gets said or mentioned. She knows we Play. She also knows how much it adds to our personal lives.
I think it's a maturity level that many never reach no matter what they think...

[Ozme52]

Cheating means you take or do something outside of the accepted rules. Specifically...

transitive verb
1: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3: to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>

intransitive verb
1 a: to practice fraud or trickery b: to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
2: to be sexually unfaithful — usually used with on <was cheating on his wife>
3: to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that area <the shortstop was cheating toward second base>

Before getting married, my spouse and I agreed that neither of us cared to know of the others' possible dalliances... and also agreed that such extra-marital affairs were, by definition, permitted.

So other than it's use as the idiom for extra-marital activity... it's about the same as "cheating toward second base"

In other words... If it's in bold... it's bad. If it's in green it's keen.

[annie]

From time to time I read things on the internet from people who are married, but also have a dom or a sub who isn't their spouse, often just online. And often it seems like the spouse doesn't know about it.

I'm trying not to be accusatory here, but... I don't get it. How is this not simple adultery/cheating? What am I missing about the relationships that makes this sort of thing acceptable?

Think "adultery/cheating" is a very broad term that each difines differently on many levels.

If my finding sexual stimulation through an on-line D/s relationship is considered cheating/adultery then the same would need to be applied to my husbands desire to look at porn on-line. After all... same ending results for each person just a different method in getting there...

Secondly, not to sound like Clinton, but what does the foundation of "cheating/adultery" really mean. Is it just the sexual stimulation or is it actual physical intercourse or is it simply having the emotional needs met by another?

And... does the other spouse not know because they don't want to know?

And from one's perspective, up bringing, culture, etc. it may be defined as cheating/adultery. That may not be the same case for others though based on the same criteria.

And, before fingers get pointed at the "adulterous/cheating" spouse.... why has the "cheating" occurred? Where there other options? What were those negatives?

Each situation is extremely different based on the people involved and the circumstances... so i don't think there is one truly clear cut answer. It is something that each person has to look at, evaluate, and decide for themselves... and it isn't up to the rest of the world to judge the decision that comes from it.

[TomOfSweden]

From time to time I read things on the internet from people who are married, but also have a dom or a sub who isn't their spouse, often just online. And often it seems like the spouse doesn't know about it.

I'm trying not to be accusatory here, but... I don't get it. How is this not simple adultery/cheating? What am I missing about the relationships that makes this sort of thing acceptable?

I don't get it either. For me a relationship is based on love, not which bits gets put into which holes. Love is love no matter if it's on-line or off. Cheating is giving love on the side without your spouses aproval. I've met girls who in theory would like to be one of many slaves, but none who when it gets around to it actually want to follow through with it. But I'm not going to judge or make assumptions. I'll just keep trying to understand, (out of my own selfish interests who wouldn't want a harem of their own).

[gloombunny]

Before getting married, my spouse and I agreed that neither of us cared to know of the others' possible dalliances... and also agreed that such extra-marital affairs were, by definition, permitted.

I wouldn't accuse you of cheating, then. Like you say, the word only refers to things that are outside the boundaries of the relationship (either well-defined or implicit, as the case may be).

[TomOfSweden]

If my finding sexual stimulation through an on-line D/s relationship is considered cheating/adultery then the same would need to be applied to my husbands desire to look at porn on-line. After all... same ending results for each person just a different method in getting there...

The difference is massive. Two people interacting vs one person making love to themselves. I see no parallel at all.

[smilie]

I think cheating all depends on what rules are set in your marriage,if it is something that your spouse is aware of and he/she allows it then no one has the right to say that you are cheating on him/her

[annie]

The difference is massive. Two people interacting vs one person making love to themselves. I see no parallel at all.

Once again... depends on the perspective and the relationship....

[Guest 91108]

Each situation is extremely different based on the people involved and the circumstances... so i don't think there is one truly clear cut answer. It is something that each person has to look at, evaluate, and decide for themselves... and it isn't up to the rest of the world to judge the decision that comes from it.

yes. that is how i see it. who knows if it's cheating without the input from all three parties involved.

[Hime]

I think it is cheating if it is outside of the agreed-upon boundaries of the relationship. For instance, before my fiance and I had a D/s relationship, he agreed that I could be with other women (with his knowledge), but not other men. So if I'd been with a man, that would have been cheating.

To me, a BDSM relationship between two people, even if it isn't strictly sexual, or even if it's purely online, is a very intimate relationship. I met D online and for the first few months we didn't meet in person, but if one of us had had an SO or spouse during that time, I imagine that they would have been very upset to discover how much time we had spent talking to each other and how close we had become. I'm very happy that we were single when we found each other.

Personally, I go by the "golden rule." I have male friends online and in person, and when I am with them I try to not do or say (or let them do or say) anything that would upset me if D did that with a female friend -- so a hug is ok, but a kiss definitely is not. For me, a BDSM relationship falls into the category of something that would upset me if I was the spouse. I would be badly hurt if I found out that the person I loved had gone behind my back to find a relationship with such a deep level of trust and intimacy -- even if there was no sex involved, I think it would be worse for me than if he was just sleeping with someone.

Of course, there are people who have multiple relationships where everybody involved knows, and they all seem happy. I really admire those people (I'm looking at you, Wolven Vixen) for their generosity in "sharing" someone important to them -- I don't think I could ever do that.

Also, I think part of the reason that there is such a stigma attached to homosexuality, bisexuality, and sexual fetish lifestyles is the stereotype that people get married as a "cover" and then cheat in order to satisfy their "cravings." So even though a relationship between two consenting adults doesn't hurt anyone in and of itself, a lot of the time there is someone on the "outside" who is hurt -- and moreso if kids are involved.

I don't want to judge other people, because I'm so lucky myself -- I love someone, he loves me, he seems happy to dominate me (after some initial stumbles), and neither of us are entangled with other people. I can see how the choices get really complicated for people in different situations.

[TomOfSweden]

Also, I think part of the reason that there is such a stigma attached to homosexuality, bisexuality, and sexual fetish lifestyles is the stereotype that people get married as a "cover" and then cheat in order to satisfy their "cravings." So even though a relationship between two consenting adults doesn't hurt anyone in and of itself, a lot of the time there is someone on the "outside" who is hurt -- and moreso if kids are involved.

I could understand this sentiment in the 1950'ies or if we lived in Iran, but here in the West and now? Isn't this society over gay-bashing a million times over today?

[Amberxiao]

I'm going to agree with Tom on this one. Unless a partner has explicitly told you that it is okay to have dalliances and that they don't want to know (as in the case of Ozme), it is extremely disrespectful to assume it is okay. It is particularly disrespectful to assume they wouldn't want to know because you think they'd be hurt if they knew. I'd rather be hurt and know than be happy without knowing. My happiness would be based on a falsehood and misplaced trust. To me, that's the ultimate betrayal. Not only that, but if you assume they wouldn't want to know, it means you think you know what's best for them. That is a very patronizing attitude, and definitely out of place in a vanilla relationship.

An online relationship is different from porn because of the word "relationship". Now, if you're talking about supposed one-night stands or something like the Academy, it gets a little trickier since, unlike real one-night stands, you can forget about the other person and pretend they aren't real and thus, just a stand-in (which makes it more like porn)... but even then, I think you should be able to let your partner know, and if you don't, you need to ask why. This actually goes for porn, too, though. If you're secretive about your porn and not willing to say you're doing it, there's probably a reason, and you should ask why.

The answer to that why will probably lead you to realize that your relationship is lacking in trust. And that's not something that will be fixed through anything external to the relationship: it has to be fixed, if it *can* be fixed, within the relationship. If it cannot be fixed within the relationship, then you have to decide whether you can accept a relationship without trust. But trying to have both is disrespectful both to yourself and to all the other people involved.

[lily27]

I think this can be a tricky and heated subject, and I congratulate everyone for talking about it so respectfully... so far.

For me, something counts as cheating when I am keeping it from my partner, and he would be upset if he knew about it. It is something that breaks the trust of our relationship. It can be emotional or physical... if I am hiding it out of fear of his reaction, it is cheating.

If you have an open relationship, and the other person knows about your actions, I wouldn't consider it as cheating. The activities are within the pre-established boundaries of your relationship. I personally am not really one for sharing, but if it works for you, go for it.

I probably have a broader definition of "cheating" than most. For example... say the girls wanted to go see male strippers or something. If I told my partner about it before hand, and he gave me permission to go I wouldn't consider it to be cheating - but if I went without telling him, and hid it from him afterwards, it would definitely be breaking the rules of our relationship. This is because if he knew I did something like that without permission, he would be upset, and I would have damaged our trust.

In a relationship, my life is an open book. If my partner doesn't know something it is probably because it is too boring to know. But I am always where I say I am going to be, and with who I said I am going to be with. And if he was really interested in the minutia of my day, he is welcome to that information as well.

So for me, it is not necessarily the action, but the hiding, that makes it cheating.

Just my two cents.

-lily

[_ID_]

We didnt find it to be cheating, because it was allowed with consent for each partner. In the end it didn't work for us, and ultimately drove us apart.

[gloombunny]

I really should've been more clear in my initial post... I only meant to ask about the situations where partners don't know about the external D/s relationships.

As long as everyone involved knows what's going on and is OK with it, then there's no cheating or wrongdoing at all, as far as I'm concerned.

[Ozme52]

I wouldn't accuse you of cheating, then. Like you say, the word only refers to things that are outside the boundaries of the relationship (either well-defined or implicit, as the case may be).

Good... now that we've gotten that straightened out...

I find myself once again subless.

[submissive sugar]

Well my situation is this .... my husband knows about my submissive side, has just recently told me he wants nothing to do with the lifestyle or Dominanting me *sighs* but knows I need to fullfill that part of myself be it online or otherwise ..... He just wants no knowledge what so ever of what is going on. I'm not sure how to handle this situation as of yet because it's still very new to me. But would that be considered cheating in your book .... because if lets say ... and that's a VERY big if I decided to persue (or be persued as the case may be) by a Dominant online with the possiblity of real life interaction my husband wouldn't know about it because He's asked it to be that way. I don't know if what I just said makes sense at all but I hope so.

[TomOfSweden]

Well my situation is this .... my husband knows about my submissive side, has just recently told me he wants nothing to do with the lifestyle or Dominanting me *sighs* but knows I need to fullfill that part of myself be it online or otherwise ..... He just wants no knowledge what so ever of what is going on. I'm not sure how to handle this situation as of yet because it's still very new to me. But would that be considered cheating in your book .... because if lets say ... and that's a VERY big if I decided to persue (or be persued as the case may be) by a Dominant online with the possiblity of real life interaction my husband wouldn't know about it because He's asked it to be that way. I don't know if what I just said makes sense at all but I hope so.

In your situation I would figure out how important being submissive is to you. If it isn't important enough then stay with him, (there's plenty of porn and stories you can look at when masturbating). But if you want this to be a lifestyle choice then go. There's no extra points for long relationships if the pope isn't watching.

If you're unsure and want to try out the BDSM world then cheat. But be prepared he can be pissed off if he finds out.

[gloombunny]

It depends on what the husband thought he was agreeing to, really. Figuring that out could be awkward.

[Alex Bragi]

Natalie D, I'm one of those people.

I'm not married, but I'm in two relationships, one on-line and off-line. Having said that I don’t think my relationships have anything to do with anyone else so I'm not going to spend time here trying to justify my situation. You're not "missing anything" because unless you are, or you are planning to be, in this kind of situation yourself, then it's simply not necessary for you to "get it".

Quite obviously, it's not an acceptable situation to you, or people like you, but quite frankly, I can live with that.

I'm not here to judge or be judged.

[babykat]

There is a thread a while back about this issue (started by Tojo I think) that has a lot of different opinions. While I'm in the camp that honesty is generally the best policy, reading through that thread gave me a new perspective on the reasons people come online to look for whatever they're missing in their real lives. Not everything can be as black and white as we wish it to be and sometimes we end up living our lives in shades of grey. I suppose each of us needs to decide what is right. Bold statement, eh?!

[precious]

Natalie D, I'm one of those people.

I'm not married, but I'm in two relationships, one on-line and off-line. Having said that I don’t think my relationships have anything to do with anyone else so I'm not going to spend time here trying to justify my situation. You're not "missing anything" because unless you are, or you are planning to be, in this kind of situation yourself, then it's simply not necessary for you to "get it".

Quite obviously, it's not an acceptable situation to you, or people like you, but quite frankly, I can live with that.

I'm not here to judge or be judged.

Well said Alex!

[Guest 91108]

then i must truly be a sinner i have a wife , pet and a subbie.. and i truly like playing with other to pass my time.

Glad they all know what i'm doing
chuckles insanely.

[Skruddgemire]

How is this not simple adultery/cheating? What am I missing about the relationships that makes this sort of thing acceptable?

It really depends on the nature of the relationship between the married couple as well as the one between the people involved.

In a clear-cut definition of the marriage vows, and and all actions outside the marriage are adulterous.

However there are situations where married couples have an open relationship and allow each other to seek out other adventures as long as they do not ignore each other's needs. Such as in the case where a person is really into a fetish that the partner is not. It may be agreed upon to allow the person to fulfill his fantasy since the partner is unable/unwilling to do so.

Other situations the couple can agree that cyber/virtual sex is nothing more than fantasy interactive masturbation and allows it to go on. The other person may know it's going on, but doesn't want to know the gory details...might not want to any of the details.

Or there are cases where when someone gets married, both partners understand that there are people that they used to do things with and they agree to let it continue. In the case of an online adventure, the other partner may once again, not know any of the details but is not concerned because they know that the other one will log off and will come to bed and they will fulfill each other.

In my marriage, my wife came to me and mentioned that she had a married couple as friends and that they used to do threesomes together. Once we were back in the area she was once again asked if she could come over to play. My wife showed me the e-mails, showed the part where the friends stated that if I wasn't comfortable with it they would understand, and asked me what my thoughts were.

Well since they were good friends of hers (keeping her sanity when her previous marriage was going down the crapper) and that she did give me the history and asked me first...I let her go and have playtime with her friends.

My take on it is that it's only cheating if the other partner is unaware of it and hasn't given their blessings to do it.

Mongo Skruddgemire

[Radiance]

It depends on many things,If your camming with one another and the people are naked yes in a way its cheating but only if the husband or wife dosnt know what your doing online, if your sneeking around hiding from your partner or staying up late after they go to bed its a form of cheating also.I think if all partys know, you will never get caught up in lies,Just cos you cant touch them,dosnt mean its not real,Hearts become involved and anyone that says they dont is lieing.But still if your not meeting them its not that bad,again as long as your partner knows,whats the use of hiding what you like.

[Hime]

I could understand this sentiment in the 1950'ies or if we lived in Iran, but here in the West and now? Isn't this society over gay-bashing a million times over today?

That would be be nice, but I'm afraid that homophobia is alive and well in the Western world. In my state, someone recently conducted a poll and found that 55% of locals are against including sexual orientation in sex-ed classes, because they don't believe in teaching that homosexuality is a valid "lifestyle."

And there are still plenty of cheaters who use the excuse that "I had to cheat on my wife and kids because I'm gay, and that's what gay people do." Of course, there are tons of gay people out there who come out before getting married to a person who isn't of their preferred gender, or, if they realize that they are gay while in a hetero relationship, choose to be honest and leave their original partner. But at least in the States there is an attitude that "alternative" forms of sexuality are associated with adultery, and the idea of a "cover marriage" is a big part of why. We had a big politician in the States come out as gay recently -- only, he wasn't just gay, he was cheating on his wife with an employee to whom he'd given major perks because he was sleeping with him. Similar story for a married religious leader who wrote off an exposed relationship with a gay hustler as "sex addiction." A lot of people here equate being gay with "bad behavior."

[TomOfSweden]

That would be be nice, but I'm afraid that homophobia is alive and well in the Western world. In my state, someone recently conducted a poll and found that 55% of locals are against including sexual orientation in sex-ed classes, because they don't believe in teaching that homosexuality is a valid "lifestyle."

And there are still plenty of cheaters who use the excuse that "I had to cheat on my wife and kids because I'm gay, and that's what gay people do." Of course, there are tons of gay people out there who come out before getting married to a person who isn't of their preferred gender, or, if they realize that they are gay while in a hetero relationship, choose to be honest and leave their original partner. But at least in the States there is an attitude that "alternative" forms of sexuality are associated with adultery, and the idea of a "cover marriage" is a big part of why. We had a big politician in the States come out as gay recently -- only, he wasn't just gay, he was cheating on his wife with an employee to whom he'd given major perks because he was sleeping with him. Similar story for a married religious leader who wrote off an exposed relationship with a gay hustler as "sex addiction." A lot of people here equate being gay with "bad behavior."

I guess it's different all over the world. Being gay is the vogue here. If you want to make a fast political career it's "smart" being gay. It makes it easier to get elected.

I use Holland as a civilization meter, where Holland is the most civilized land on earth and then I just compare every country to it. The less evolved a country is compared to it, the more behind it is. Even though it might have it's flaws, it makes it a lot easier to understand the world.

They're allready over the gay-vogue thing. We'll, (Sweden) get there. And if you're country isn't there yet, it'll come. It's just a matter of time and social maturity.

It's been true the last 60 years so it's no reason to believe Holland will stop being the most politically advanced country on earth any time soon.