A dangerous relationship?

Hi all,

Over the last 9 months I've become involved with a former friend from university in an online BDSM relationship. It started with me just helping her to recognise the impulses she had for BDSM and helping her understand they were not something to be ashamed of, but has escalated over the months.
We're both switches so the dom/sub dynamic twists and turns between conversations (sometimes even between sentences!).
The problem is that I'm involved in another (entirely vanilla) relationship, which I was not in when we first started talking but which has subsequently become quite serious. She is also in a long-term relationship.
Between the two of us we have both explored new areas of our sexuality that would have otherwise lain repressed and are both happier for it.
However, we've both told ourselves that our bondage relationship is on some other level to our normal relationships, but I don't know how much truth there is to this idea.
Does anyone here believe you can explore one side of your sexuality online without it being an affront to the sexuality of your r/l partner?

I think you're asking if it's 'cheating' to have this online relationship. This is a touchy subject for many people and is totally up to interpretation, and opinion. I would say yes ( my opinion ) if your vanilla partner is unaware of it, and hasn't given consent. Question to ask yourself for this one... would your vanilla partner be hurt if she were to learn about this relationship?

Yes I believe you can have an o/l relationship to explore bdsm (or your kinkier side) and maintain a vanilla r/l relationship. I have wrestled with this and have felt some guilt toward my r/l partner. After talking to others, the idea you must resolve is how (and if) your o/l relationship affects or detracts from your r/l relationship. Also you have to define what you consider cheating. I finally came to the conclusion that in an o/l relationship the touching is mental not physical, therefore I was not cheating. To many it's just a very creative form of masturbation. Only your conscience can decide how it works for you. My answer to this is I am happier and by exploring all aspects of my sexuality, I can enjoy all components of my love life.

i agree with SubmissiveDoll. i know i would be hurt if my significant other was engaging in another realtionship, bdsm or otherwise and i wasnt aware of it. However i am aware that my Master does occasionally Dom other girls o/l, and i am ok with that. I am confident in my position. Point being it wasnt kept a secret. i understand that others will disagree and say that the two are completely different in terms of relationships, and if that is what works for them that is fine.

If one has a relationship in real life, and is having an emotional or 'deep' relationship online it is cheating if the real life partner is not aware.

After all, if it's not cheating why wouldn't one share it with their real life partner, and why would one even question it if they weren't guilty about cheating?

It's up to you to decide if it's right or wrong.

Personally though I think it's simply a bad idea to get emotionally involved in two people like that. Ethics aside, it's just not worth it sometimes, and can end up being a bigger burden than it's worth.

Question though, might your vanilla girlfriend have any interest in exploring some kinky fantasies? Might be worth considering.

"How much of BDSM do I want in my own life?":
When I discovered the world of BDSM, which has only been this year, I asked myself, "How much of BDSM do I want in my life?" At first, my answer was that I choose my boyfriend and have a discrete online BDSM relationship on the side...I love my boyfriend and he tries to get into it for me...As time went on, my answer to my question changed and I realized why they call this "the lifestyle". I realized that it's a permanent, exciting, and important part of me and I felt it was disservice and a lie for me to keep it a secret. I'm now out of the closet, full-time lifestyler.

In BDSM and out with the boyfriend:
Although it was one of the hardest decision in my life, I knew that breaking up with him was for the best for the both of us...I'm very happy now that it's no longer in the closet, nor a repressed need. I have one friend who in his 20's, had a Domme and was very happy to be submissive. He is now married to a vanilla wife for 19 years and said he wished he did what I did, which is to have a wife who is also into BDSM. Instead, he is happily married, but always pining for what he left behind in his 20's...

think there are a lot of us out there that has done that, where we have kept with our relationships to the happiness of our significant other instead of ourselves, even long after agreements to the contrary have been made. i believe some just think its a phase some people go through and that they will grow out of it. odds are that the person who want a bdsm relationship and express thier true feelings about such is something not done lightly or just a phase

It does not matter if the two of you think it's cheating or what anyone on this board thinks.

A few people have commented that they've "successfully" done so (kept it hidden from their partner) or whether it "detracts" from their other relationship.

What I think you should ask is: What will that other partner think when they find out?

Sure, you may be able to keep it hidden, but is lies and deception a basis for a healthy relationship? And if your partner does find out, will they be hurt by it? Will they believe it's cheating?

If they would, then you're undertaking an act that has the potential to harm someone you ostensibly care about and who is trusting you not to hurt them. And I'd argue, that if you're willing to risk hurting them for your own gratification, then that's not really caring about them very much.

When your partners find out and are staring at you with the pain of betrayal in their eyes, screaming "How could you do this to me? I thought you loved me?", will telling them "but six out of ten people on bdsmlibrary.com think it's okay" make it all better for them?

If someone believes in fidelity and you've led them to think that's what they have from you, the pain and impact of betraying that is something that will last the rest of their lives and will color every future relationship they have.

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Originally Posted by manda

Yes I believe you can have an o/l relationship to explore bdsm (or your kinkier side) and maintain a vanilla r/l relationship. I have wrestled with this and have felt some guilt toward my r/l partner. After talking to others, the idea you must resolve is how (and if) your o/l relationship affects or detracts from your r/l relationship. Also you have to define what you consider cheating. I finally came to the conclusion that in an o/l relationship the touching is mental not physical, therefore I was not cheating. To many it's just a very creative form of masturbation. Only your conscience can decide how it works for you. My answer to this is I am happier and by exploring all aspects of my sexuality, I can enjoy all components of my love life.

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What your partner thinks is cheating or how they feel it impacts the relationship is irrelevant?

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Originally Posted by Ragoczy

What your partner thinks is cheating or how they feel it impacts the relationship is irrelevant?

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It is not irrelevent -but can you expect your partner to understand every aspect of your life and agree with you --No, there are parts of all of us that are private -even from those we love. I have 2 daughters --can I love both of them equally but differently with out detracting from our relationship? Yes I can and I can love 2 men without taking away from either one. It is 2 different relationships --2 different loves ---2 different needs that are fulfilled and being fulfilled. I do not lie to either partner --but neither do I give out details.

I'm inclined to agree with Rogoczy here. As I have stated in other threads with similar topics, who in the Hell really cares about the definition of cheating? All it comes down to for me is this: when your partner finds out (note I say "when," not "if"), is the hurt they feel and the consequences of your actions going to be worth the play you engaged in online? Simply, which relationship means more to you?

When your partner finds out, you can give all the explanations you want about how your secret online rendevous are really just legitimate bouts of mental masturbation with another person; but if your vanilla girlfriend is still hurt and opts to walk out the door on you, are you really going to be more satisfied alone with your "definitions" of righteousness?

Up to you to decide that.

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Originally Posted by manda

It is not irrelevent -but can you expect your partner to understand every aspect of your life and agree with you --

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No, of course you can't. But shouldn't they have the option to decide? When did it become okay for one person in the relationship to dictate what the other "needs to know?"

I'm certainly no angel, I have gone through life committing more than my fair share of sins, and I have lied to avoid conflict and/or to get out of dangerous situations. However, in each of those situations the lies were meant to get me away from and out of an unhealthy situation, not to keep me in a thriving partnership.

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Originally Posted by manda

No, there are parts of all of us that are private -even from those we love. I have 2 daughters --can I love both of them equally but differently with out detracting from our relationship? Yes I can and I can love 2 men without taking away from either one. It is 2 different relationships --2 different loves ---2 different needs that are fulfilled and being fulfilled. I do not lie to either partner --but neither do I give out details.

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I always dislike when romantic relationships are compared to the ones we have with our children. Children we love and raise up with the understanding that we are preparing them to someday leave us and pursue independent lives. Our partners are just that: partners. We mature our relationships with them with the entirely opposite notion in mind. Not telling a partner about another one seems a little counterproductive to that premise.

I do agree with your "separate but equal" description of loving partners however, it can happen that way and I've certainly seen it. In all successful instances though, all partners were aware of each other.

And a lie by deliberate omission is still a lie. Somehow I can't imagine one partner being particularly soothed when he finds out about his BDSM counterpart and the response he gets is, "I didn't lie. You never specifically asked if I was engaging in submissive and sexual behavior with a Dominant man."

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Originally Posted by manda

It is not irrelevent -but can you expect your partner to understand every aspect of your life and agree with you --No, there are parts of all of us that are private -even from those we love. I have 2 daughters --can I love both of them equally but differently with out detracting from our relationship? Yes I can and I can love 2 men without taking away from either one. It is 2 different relationships --2 different loves ---2 different needs that are fulfilled and being fulfilled. I do not lie to either partner --but neither do I give out details.

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Do either of your partners think you are monogamous with them?

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Originally Posted by manda

It is not irrelevent -but can you expect your partner to understand every aspect of your life and agree with you --No, there are parts of all of us that are private -even from those we love. I have 2 daughters --can I love both of them equally but differently with out detracting from our relationship? Yes I can and I can love 2 men without taking away from either one. It is 2 different relationships --2 different loves ---2 different needs that are fulfilled and being fulfilled. I do not lie to either partner --but neither do I give out details.

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First of all, I have two children and love them each very differently. However, they each KNOW about the other one. Now, granted, they don't get the right to consent to whether or not they have a sibling, but they've never been lied to that they are the only one. Not to mention, love and feelings for children are VERY different than the emotions one feels for a lover.

Are your partners each aware that there is another partner fulfilling needs that he can't? Then more power to you, and enjoy them all you can. If you found that either of them has another relationship would that be okay with you? If your real life relationship found out about your bdsm needs and wanted to fulfill those needs would you give up the online one?

Also, if you can't expect the partner that you are with in real life to be open to finding out who you are inside then what are you doing with them? There are portions of Ragoczy's personality and desires that I haven't an interest in and am more than happy to have him engage in on his own or with others, like kayaking. But I KNOW his personality inside and out and I ACCEPT his personality and wants and needs as part of him. Without that, what we have would not be what it is.

-kitten

I have given rope monkey my response to HIS question, my opinions on what he stated and asked. I wonder how my relations came under attack. I did not ask for the opinions of others on what I do nor do I care to answer any further questions, because quite frankly it is no one's business. I have found a happy medium for all involved and yes all parties are aware of the other. End of story.

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Originally Posted by manda

I have given rope monkey my response to HIS question, my opinions on what he stated and asked. I wonder how my relations came under attack. I did not ask for the opinions of others on what I do nor do I care to answer any further questions, because quite frankly it is no one's business. I have found a happy medium for all involved and yes all parties are aware of the other. End of story.

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You offered it up in response to the original questioner who was looking for a solution. Since your original post wasn't clear that all parties are aware -- in fact, the impression I got was that they weren't -- then it's natural that those who object to that would question it. I'm sure no one was intending to offend you, but you did respond to a controversial topic -- it's not reasonable to expect that people will ignore your comment.

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Originally Posted by manda

I have given rope monkey my response to HIS question, my opinions on what he stated and asked. I wonder how my relations came under attack. I did not ask for the opinions of others on what I do nor do I care to answer any further questions, because quite frankly it is no one's business. I have found a happy medium for all involved and yes all parties are aware of the other. End of story.

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The important point being that all parties are aware. In that case, it's wonderful that you've found a solution that works to fulfill everyone's needs. The only issue that has come under attack is HIDING a relationship from a significant other. I think making it clear that all parties are aware is an important aspect of answering rope monkey's question.

-kitten

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Originally Posted by manda

I have given rope monkey my response to HIS question, my opinions on what he stated and asked. I wonder how my relations came under attack. I did not ask for the opinions of others on what I do nor do I care to answer any further questions, because quite frankly it is no one's business. I have found a happy medium for all involved and yes all parties are aware of the other. End of story.

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This is a public forum designed for discussion amongst members of what is posted here. You posted. We discussed. *shrugs* Seems reasonable.

I would say it's a stretch to say your relations came under attack as all parties involved in your situation are aware of each other, and no one that responded to you seems to have an issue with that. It's the situations where deception is involved that are being advised against, and all topics thereof do have relevance to the OP. You cleared your post up, we all nodded and went, "oh, okay. We read it differently." No malice in the exchange at all.

Everybody all better now?

Group hug?

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Originally Posted by Ragoczy

Everybody all better now?

Group hug?

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You? Hugging??? YOU HUGGING a GROUP?????? Ohmigosh, should I call the doctor????

Wow, I'm stunned.

-kitten

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Originally Posted by SnickerKitten

You? Hugging??? YOU HUGGING a GROUP?????? Ohmigosh, should I call the doctor????

Wow, I'm stunned.

-kitten

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If there are enough people involved in the group, no one will notice I'm doing an air-hug.

DowntownAmber - This is a public forum designed for discussion amongst members of what is posted here. You posted. We discussed. *shrugs* Seems reasonable.
Rope monkey posted a question and invited opinion. Mandy responded answering his question. That seems reasonable. You gave a brief answer to rope monkey's question before tearing into mandy's opinion. Whether or not that is reasonable is quite another matter.

DowntownAmber - but if your vanilla girlfriend is still hurt and opts to walk out the door on you, are you really going to be more satisfied alone with your "definitions" of righteousness?
Yes I will be better of without her. If the slightest hurt to means she walks out the door then it's clear we were not compatible and it was only a matter of time before she walked. Nobody knows mandy's rl partner better than she does and in her view it's not a problem. I don't see how anyone, not knowing mandy's partner, is in a position to dispute her judgement.

Ragoczy - Since your original post wasn't clear that all parties are aware -- in fact, the impression I got was that they weren't -- then it's natural that those who object to that would question it.
Personally if something is not clear to me I request clarification then base my opinions on the subsequent clarification. That seems a more natural way to go for me than simply assuming then condeming a person for something they never said. Guilt by "impression" is a dangerous road to go down.

DowntownAmber - No, of course you can't. But shouldn't they have the option to decide? When did it become okay for one person in the relationship to dictate what the other "needs to know?"
Come down from those ivory towers for a second. When I go to to the pub and ogle at the barmaids tits should I come back home and tell my woman what I did because I don't have the right to dictate what she "needs to know". Get real!

Human relationships are based on trust and a degree of privacy. In mandy's view her ol relationship does not detract from her rl one. End of story. If her rl partner does not share her view or trust her then compatibility and trust will come up sooner or later in another area. Heaven forbid she has her own private bank account.

DowntownAmber - And a lie by deliberate omission is still a lie.
There is a difference between omitting a key detail when one is being asked and simply not raising the topic in the first place. Did Clinton lie when he omitted to mention the fact that Monica had been going down on him. The Senate obviously didn't agree with your deliberate omission is still a lie theory else they would not have acquitted him of perjury.

There are many important relationships not just romantic ones. There is the relationship and obligations to parents. I wonder how many people on this site have omitted to tell their parents about their bdsm activities. Presumably thats a lie and it's not okay for thm to dictate what their parents "need to know".

Rope monkey - Does anyone here believe you can explore one side of your sexuality online without it being an affront to the sexuality of your r/l partner?
Mandy was kind enough to answer rope monkey's question but because she had the audacity to express a view other didn't agree with she is lynched by the righteous mob. Hardly the way to encourage a broad view of opinions is it, crucify anybody who dares to have a different view.

Rope monkey, I'm sure you will excuse me if, for obvious reasons, I do not give you my response to you question.

Coming from a first hand experience, Learning that your Master has been with another without your knowledge devastates you.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

DowntownAmber - No, of course you can't. But shouldn't they have the option to decide? When did it become okay for one person in the relationship to dictate what the other "needs to know?"
Come down from those ivory towers for a second. When I go to to the pub and ogle at the barmaids tits should I come back home and tell my woman what I did because I don't have the right to dictate what she "needs to know". Get real!

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That's not the same thing. If you want to start a thread about whether clandestine tit-ogling is kosher, then be my guest. I'm starting to figure out how things work around here- you just take the other guy's position, describe the worst possible implementation of it (one that no right thinking person would try), and then argue against that, instead of against his original point.

So in this case, instead of talking about "needs to know" re: infidelity and affairs, we get the tits example. Not that I object to any mention of breasts.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

DowntownAmber - And a lie by deliberate omission is still a lie.
There is a difference between omitting a key detail when one is being asked and simply not raising the topic in the first place.

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For the purposes of covering up an affair, there certainly isn't. Do you think it's any less of a betrayal if your spouse doesn't think to ask about it? This statement is just wrong.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Did Clinton lie when he omitted to mention the fact that Monica had been going down on him? ... The Senate obviously didn't agree with your deliberate omission is still a lie theory else they would not have acquitted him of perjury.

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This is a bad argument.

Whether it was a lie or not, I don't think anyone would dispute that Clinton's act was infidelity. Are you trying to use THIS case of all cases to prove your point? You couldn't have picked a worse example. Nobody out there is walking along saying to themselves: "Bill never cheated on Hilary, he just omitted the truth of all the blowjobs he was getting in the Oval Office."

It doesn't matter if omission is technically a lie according to the Ye Olde Oxford Fuckinge Englishe Dictionary, or by any legal statute. There is no legislating affairs of the heart. If it's the same act, and if it hurts your partner the same way, it's still betrayal. Having been found out, is the plan to trot your high school english teacher over to your devastated spouse, and have him make the case that it wasn't a lie, but an omission? I'm sure that will be great solace to her while she's chucking your clothes all over the front lawn.

Oh well- failing that, maybe you can get the Senate to convince her.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Rope monkey - Does anyone here believe you can explore one side of your sexuality online without it being an affront to the sexuality of your r/l partner?
Mandy was kind enough to answer rope monkey's question but because she had the audacity to express a view other didn't agree with she is lynched by the righteous mob. Hardly the way to encourage a broad view of opinions is it, crucify anybody who dares to have a different view.

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I don't think that's a fair characterization of what happened here.

- FS

OK, Folks Again before this thread goes to far south,,as it is heading,,Remember,,

OPINIONS are to be about the TOPIC!!!!!!!!

Fair Warning!!!!!

Be Well


T

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

DowntownAmber - This is a public forum designed for discussion amongst members of what is posted here. You posted. We discussed. *shrugs* Seems reasonable.
Rope monkey posted a question and invited opinion. Mandy responded answering his question. That seems reasonable. You gave a brief answer to rope monkey's question before tearing into mandy's opinion. Whether or not that is reasonable is quite another matter.

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I think it's reasonable to give your own opinion and respond to the opinions of others -- much as you just did. It seems somewhat disingenuous to question whether responding to someone other than the original poster, who you happen to disagree with, is reasonable at the same time you're doing it.

For someone asking a question like rope monkey's, disagreement, even heated disagreement, is valuable to see, because it gives one the real sense of how people, including rope monkey's partner, may feel and react to a topic. Denying the questioner that is a disservice.

We should all be sweetness and light and say "oh, honey, just do what makes you happy and what you think is right" -- then when the partner finds out and explodes the poor questioner is left thinking "but so many people told me it was okay"?

Do that and they might as well close up shop for everything but the Fun & Games posts, because the site'll be useless to anyone who actually wants the whole spectrum of opinion.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

DowntownAmber - but if your vanilla girlfriend is still hurt and opts to walk out the door on you, are you really going to be more satisfied alone with your "definitions" of righteousness?
Yes I will be better of without her. If the slightest hurt to means she walks out the door then it's clear we were not compatible and it was only a matter of time before she walked. Nobody knows mandy's rl partner better than she does and in her view it's not a problem. I don't see how anyone, not knowing mandy's partner, is in a position to dispute her judgement.

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I think the essence of so many posts on this topic has been simply that while you may consider it a "slightest hurt", the person's partner may consider it a major betrayal -- and their feelings and response should be considered.

There are two people involved in any relationship and that means making accommodations for how the other sees things as well. If the two views are incompatible, then the two people probably shouldn't be together -- but to simply ignore the other person's views as unworthy of consideration shows a singular lack of respect.

How would you view a dominant who told his partner "I know you have a hard-limit against piss-play, but I like it and I think it's 'slight' so I'm going to do it anyway"? This community would "tear into" such a person and "crucify" him -- one only needs to look around the forums to see such.

Why should the non-BDSM partner's limits be any less respected?

Because the limit is unvoiced? Nonsense -- some limits are implied, even in BDSM and traditional relationships don't explicitly state their limits ... should they be ignored simply because it isn't the common convention to state them?

Because it isn't physical harm? Again, nonsense -- because a BDSM limit on verbal humiliation causes no physical harm, but would still be considered wrong by the BDSM community.

Trust, consent and respect of a person's limits -- so important in the BDSM realm, but okay to ignore if the person being harmed is not a member of our community?

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Ragoczy - Since your original post wasn't clear that all parties are aware -- in fact, the impression I got was that they weren't -- then it's natural that those who object to that would question it.
Personally if something is not clear to me I request clarification then base my opinions on the subsequent clarification. That seems a more natural way to go for me than simply assuming then condeming a person for something they never said. Guilt by "impression" is a dangerous road to go down.

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I count five questions posed in this thread toward that post, two personal opinions in opposition and one partial agreement. The closest I see to "condemnation" is a comment that something is "a little counterproductive". One would have to be pretty touchy, I think, consider that condemnation.

Regardless, the post in question said nothing about the partner's knowledge or agreement, only statements that "I decided", "I wrestled with", etc. Nothing like "we talked", "we decided", "he agreed" -- I stand by my statement that the conclusion was reasonable, especially in the context of a discussion like this.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

DowntownAmber - No, of course you can't. But shouldn't they have the option to decide? When did it become okay for one person in the relationship to dictate what the other "needs to know?"
Come down from those ivory towers for a second. When I go to to the pub and ogle at the barmaids tits should I come back home and tell my woman what I did because I don't have the right to dictate what she "needs to know". Get real!

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If your partner feels that ogling barmaids is a violation of some term of your relationship and you then do it anyway without her knowledge or consent, then you've violated her trust and have not respected her limits. If she doesn't like it, but you've made it clear you're going to do it anyway and she's accepted that, then ogle away.

If she decides it's okay to suck some other guy's dick (or something you'd object to if you're okay with that), then it's okay for her to do it and keep it from you because you "don't need to know"? There's a formula for a relationship based on mutual respect. Now, maybe you don't want a relationship based on mutual respect -- and there's nothing wrong with that if that's actually what you want -- but the original post concerned traditional relationships and this is part of those.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Human relationships are based on trust and a degree of privacy. In mandy's view her ol relationship does not detract from her rl one. End of story. If her rl partner does not share her view or trust her then compatibility and trust will come up sooner or later in another area. Heaven forbid she has her own private bank account.

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My partner trusts me not to give them an STD because she thinks we're monogamous, so I always use a condom when I have casual sex with strangers in bars. In my view, my actions don't detract from her safety, so it's all good. Right?

The private bank account's fine if they've agreed to have private bank accounts. Why the hell is it so hard for people in a community that talks so damn much about trust, consent and limits to accept that trust, consent and limits are important?

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

DowntownAmber - And a lie by deliberate omission is still a lie.
There is a difference between omitting a key detail when one is being asked and simply not raising the topic in the first place. Did Clinton lie when he omitted to mention the fact that Monica had been going down on him. The Senate obviously didn't agree with your deliberate omission is still a lie theory else they would not have acquitted him of perjury.

There are many important relationships not just romantic ones. There is the relationship and obligations to parents. I wonder how many people on this site have omitted to tell their parents about their bdsm activities. Presumably thats a lie and it's not okay for thm to dictate what their parents "need to know".

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Are you actually expecting legal definitions to apply to interpersonal relationships? That's sadly absurd.

And your parental analogy is specious. Not all relationships are the same.

Want to use a parental analogy, fine: Your parents get old and give you power of attorney, they trust you to be a good financial steward of their retirement money because they've gone a bit 'round the bend. You start betting the horses with the money and don't tell them about it. Even if you win, you've violated their consent, betrayed their trust and broken their limits. Deciding "they don't need to know" is okay?

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Rope monkey - Does anyone here believe you can explore one side of your sexuality online without it being an affront to the sexuality of your r/l partner?
Mandy was kind enough to answer rope monkey's question but because she had the audacity to express a view other didn't agree with she is lynched by the righteous mob. Hardly the way to encourage a broad view of opinions is it, crucify anybody who dares to have a different view.

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The answer to that question that everyone here has given is: Yes, if your partner is aware of and consents.

What's been criticized is violating trust and not respecting limits.

And, frankly, asking questions, which is what most of the responses to Mandy's post were doing, is not lynching or crucifying.

As for broad opinions, some opinions are morally wrong.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Rope monkey, I'm sure you will excuse me if, for obvious reasons, I do not give you my response to you question.

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If you can offer a different position and defend it, that would be valuable to the discussion and the original poster.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

DowntownAmber - This is a public forum designed for discussion amongst members of what is posted here. You posted. We discussed. *shrugs* Seems reasonable.
Rope monkey posted a question and invited opinion. Mandy responded answering his question. That seems reasonable. You gave a brief answer to rope monkey's question before tearing into mandy's opinion. Whether or not that is reasonable is quite another matter.

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I still find it reasonable, as mandy's response had to do directly with rope monkey's questions and the theme of this thread. And no one was "tearing" into mandy. This is an open forum designed to perpetuate discussion and I spoke to points she made without ever being disrespectful or referring to her with any degree of malice.

I don't dislike mandy, I simply raised questions to get a better feel of where it looked like she stood based on her post. As I stated before, I thought that's what open forums such as these were all about?

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

DowntownAmber - but if your vanilla girlfriend is still hurt and opts to walk out the door on you, are you really going to be more satisfied alone with your "definitions" of righteousness?
Yes I will be better of without her. If the slightest hurt to means she walks out the door then it's clear we were not compatible and it was only a matter of time before she walked. Nobody knows mandy's rl partner better than she does and in her view it's not a problem. I don't see how anyone, not knowing mandy's partner, is in a position to dispute her judgement.

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You will note that there is a "?" at the end of my sentence, thus pointing to the fact that I am asking a question. My response to the various infidelity threads that have cropped up on the forums lately has been this: ask yourself if it is going to be worth it when your partner finds out. It's a question, not a judgement, and certainly not disputing anyone else's judgement. Frankly dear, I don't really care what anyone else does with their own life. I certainly don't care enough to judge them. I do enjoy discussing the logic and the thought process behind the decisions people make, however, and that's why I come here. It's a thought provoking way to while away a few miniutes here and there each day and that's all. I'm sorry if raising questions hurts people's feelings, but I'm not inclined to stop anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

DowntownAmber - No, of course you can't. But shouldn't they have the option to decide? When did it become okay for one person in the relationship to dictate what the other "needs to know?"
Come down from those ivory towers for a second. When I go to to the pub and ogle at the barmaids tits should I come back home and tell my woman what I did because I don't have the right to dictate what she "needs to know". Get real!

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I'm not sure I would consider looking at the barmaid's tits quite the same caliber of indiscresion as having an affair with the barmaid. If this puts me up in an ivory tower, well, I guess forward my mail and send up a pizza. I guess I just find it hard to beleive that most people, unless specifically in an open or poly relationship which implies that this has been discussed anyway, wouldn't find it reasonable to expect that their partner is open with them about their sexual exploits. You're saying you wouldn't be bothered at all if the woman you're dating had an affair and neglected to mention it? At the point where she picked up an STD from the other guy at the bar and passed it on to you and you got pissed would her telling you to "get real!" and "come down from your ivory tower," make you feel any better?

DowntownAmber - And a lie by deliberate omission is still a lie.
There is a difference between omitting a key detail when one is being asked and simply not raising the topic in the first place. Did Clinton lie when he omitted to mention the fact that Monica had been going down on him. The Senate obviously didn't agree with your deliberate omission is still a lie theory else they would not have acquitted him of perjury.[/QUOTE]

The Senate doesn't agree with me on a lot, I'm afraid...lol

And there is a big difference between being dishonest and legal perjury. For example, I could rob a bank and take money that's not mine. That's extremely dishonest, not to mention illegal. However, I could avoid a perjury charge simply by keeping my mouth shut and never saying in court, "no, I did not rob that bank." Well hooray for me, I technically didn't lie but it still appears I'm a dishonest git, wouldn't you say? At the point where morality is being broken down to bits of technicality and rules lawyering, well, that's the point I think I'd like to head back up to that tower you put me in earlier.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

There are many important relationships not just romantic ones. There is the relationship and obligations to parents. I wonder how many people on this site have omitted to tell their parents about their bdsm activities. Presumably thats a lie and it's not okay for thm to dictate what their parents "need to know".

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Well, if you're having sex with your parents and they're under the impression you're only having sex with them, then yes, I would hope you would tell them they just aren't doing it for you and you need to expand your kink horizons. Though, somehow I'm hoping you're not serious with that example...

I really doubt most kids have sexual monogamy, whether implied or discussed, with their parents. If so, whole 'nother thread...

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Rope monkey - Does anyone here believe you can explore one side of your sexuality online without it being an affront to the sexuality of your r/l partner?
Mandy was kind enough to answer rope monkey's question but because she had the audacity to express a view other didn't agree with she is lynched by the righteous mob. Hardly the way to encourage a broad view of opinions is it, crucify anybody who dares to have a different view.

Rope monkey, I'm sure you will excuse me if, for obvious reasons, I do not give you my response to you question.

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MacGuffin: I would still encourage you to answer rope monkey's question, as I assume that is why you clicked on this thread to begin with. No one called mandy a "righteous mob" or told her to "get real!" as you did in response to other's posts, and I can assure you I will not do that to you when you answer the question at hand.

I will, however, promise you that I will ask questions if I have them, look for clarification, and question logic that seems dodgy to me. That's why we're here, after all.

Flesh Seraph - That's not the same thing. If you want to start a thread about whether clandestine tit-ogling is kosher, then be my guest.
Rope monkey asked "Does anyone here believe you can explore one side of your sexuality online without it being an affront to the sexuality of your r/l partner?" and manda addressed the question. The thread was then hijacked into a discussion on infidelity.

Ragoczy - If they would, then you're undertaking an act that has the potential to harm someone you ostensibly care about and who is trusting you not to hurt them. And I'd argue, that if you're willing to risk hurting them for your own gratification, then that's not really caring about them very much............If someone believes in fidelity and you've led them to think that's what they have from you, the pain and impact of betraying that is something that will last the rest of their lives and will color every future relationship they have.
I appreciate the possible hurt to manda's partner has been considered but let's also consider the possible hurt to manda's feelings by what was very close to accusing her of cheating and hurting her partner. I do not think it was right to criticise a member's private relationships in such a manner. This prompted my post.

DowtownAmber - *shrugs* Seems reasonable.
Manda's last post clearly showed she was a little upset. A little more consideration for her feelings would not have been too unreasonable.

DowtonAmber - I'm not sure I would consider looking at the barmaid's tits quite the same caliber of indiscresion as having an affair with the barmaid.
I was addressing your comment that one partner could not determine what the other needs to know. You have determined that tit ogling (one extreme) there is no need but an affair (the other extreme) is. Fine - now lets go through the shades in between and let you dictated what the "calibre of indiscretion" is as well as the "need to know" criteria.

Ragoczy - Are you actually expecting legal definitions to apply to interpersonal relationships? That's sadly absurd.
DowntownAmber chose to make a sweeping statement that omission is a lie. I merely pointed out a case where the US Senate did not support her point of view. And yes I would expect legal definitions to apply to interpersonal relationships, that's what divorce courts do isn't it.

Rope monkey - Does anyone here believe you can explore one side of your sexuality online without it being an affront to the sexuality of your r/l partner?
Yes I believe you can because exploration helps you know and improve your sexuality which will in turn benefit both r/l partners. Many married people come to sites like this in order to improve their sex life with their partner by talking and playing with others.

As regards infidelity, presumably everybody knows their rl partner very well (especially if it is a spouse) and knows the limits, obligations and freedoms of their relationship as well as what may hurt their partner and the degree of any possible hurt. There is no black and white global answer as to what is cheating. It depends on the partners, the nature of the relationship and the understanding between them. If you do not know what will hurt your partner or your realtionship then you have a problem irrespective of online relationship.

And for the record my rl partner knows what I get up to, not because I tell her but because she knows me and what I am like.

This is my last post is this thread.

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Originally Posted by Ragoczy

My partner trusts me not to give them an STD because she thinks we're monogamous, so I always use a condom when I have casual sex with strangers in bars. In my view, my actions don't detract from her safety, so it's all good. Right?

.

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Just try it, Love. As you know; if I don't approve beforehand, you'll lose your penis before I slowly kill you.

The answer to the original question posed in this thread is:

YES, it's absolutely possible and totally fine provided that you get your real life partner's consent.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

"DowntownAmber - but if your vanilla girlfriend is still hurt and opts to walk out the door on you, are you really going to be more satisfied alone with your "definitions" of righteousness?"
Yes I will be better of without her. If the slightest hurt to means she walks out the door then it's clear we were not compatible and it was only a matter of time before she walked.

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Wouldn't it be far more admirable to be up front and say, "Hey, don't expect me to be monogamous." So that your partner can make the determination as to whether or not she feels compatible with you? I'd *hardly* call it a "slight hurt" if Rago cheated on me. I, personally, would feel absolutely justified in killing him over it. (Now there is fuel for a totally different pot)

Thank goodness he's aware of that! Imagine this scenario, Person A has your view, that cheating is only a slight hurt and we're incompatible if Person B has a problem with it and walks out the door. Person B has my view, and finds that Person A has dipped his stick outside Person B's consent. Do you see where this leads?? Person A isn't going to end up being better off thinking Person B being gone is a good riddance because "we were incompatible and he/she would end up walking out at some point anyway". Person A would be dead and Person B would be in jail. (Yes, I understand that if Rago ever did cheat on me and I killed him that I'd spend the rest of my life in jail, I'm not stupid, just a little on the extreme side.)

-kitten

rope_monkey: I stand by my original post in regards to what I think. When your vanilla partner finds out, if she is upset and this damages or ends your relationship, was it worth it? No judgement calls, simply which means the most to you?

If you do really feel that the online relationship you are having enhances your vanilla relationship, dig deep as to why that is and explore that. The answers you find will tell you a lot about yourself and the relationship. Are you playing online because it fills a gap that is lacking in your vanilla union? If so, what will you do when the online play ceases? Is it something you're doing online only and not bringing into your r/l relationship because you're embarrassed or afraid to? What can you do to overcome those fears?

There are so many facets to this that remain unanswered, and they're questions well worth digging into.

manda: If you were offended by anything I commented on or asked questions about, I feel bad as that was not my intent. I will always ask questions and comment, as I feel that is the point of this forum, but I certainly am not out and about calling names or trying to damage other people's feelings. For future reference (and please don't take this the wrong way), I simply don't care enough or know enough about other people's lives here to really bother making judgement calls on them. I do, however, enjoy a good discussion.

MacGuffin: Common sense, my friend. I find it is being disregarded in your responses to me. You accuse me of being unreasonable because something I said may or may not have hurt manda's feelings "a little" when the point of my post was to ask how the situation was being handled as so not to hurt other's feelings. Clearly I'm not a fan of feelings being hurt. So, why would I be out to stomp on manda's?

As for what people consider "need to know?" You're right, we could go through the "shades" of that all day but, again, impart a little common sense. In my relationship if I stared at the waiter's ass during lunch, I might not rush home and tell my boyfriend (as I really don't think he cares what the waiter's ass looks like) but if we were to be at the same restaurant together later it certainly wouldn't cause me embarrassment or shame to point out, "hey! We have the waiter with the cute ass. I started at him all through lunch the other day." He'd laugh, as we have discussed what we find sexy and attractive in other people before. On the other hand, I think a line would be crossed for us if I blurted out, "hey, we have the waiter I fucked on his smoke break last week!" The point is, work out your "shades of indiscretion" with your partner. Nitpicking semantics is something that defeats the spirit of the law entirely, disrespects one's partner and reduces the relationship down to who can make the most clever argument. Most of us learned didn't really work in about the fourth grade. "But mom! You said I couldn't walk home with Jimmy after school and play! I didn't "walk" home with him, we ran!" Uh huh.

Same common sense rule applies with lies by omission. If you know enough to know that what you're doing will likely hurt your partner and you don't want to say anything about it as a result, you probably came to that conclusion based on either spoken or implied rules of conduct for your relationship. By being in the relationship to begin with, you are implying consent to those rules of engagement, and breaking them and not saying anything is decietful whether you're asked directly or not. Again, this is something that I would hope we all gave up on trying to be clever in regards to back in the fourth grade. "But Mom, I DIDN'T break the lamp! And I didn't lie! You didn't asked if the baseball I threw in the house broke the lamp!" Uh huh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Ragoczy - If they would, then you're undertaking an act that has the potential to harm someone you ostensibly care about and who is trusting you not to hurt them. And I'd argue, that if you're willing to risk hurting them for your own gratification, then that's not really caring about them very much............If someone believes in fidelity and you've led them to think that's what they have from you, the pain and impact of betraying that is something that will last the rest of their lives and will color every future relationship they have.
I appreciate the possible hurt to manda's partner has been considered but let's also consider the possible hurt to manda's feelings by what was very close to accusing her of cheating and hurting her partner. I do not think it was right to criticise a member's private relationships in such a manner. This prompted my post.

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I count seven qualifiers in my post that provide for the implied criticism to be inapplicable.

Regardless, if (qualifier) someone is undertaking action which would cause harm to their partner and if (qualifier) their partner is trusting them to not do so and if (qualifier) the do so anyway with that knowledge, then I hope (unqualified) they get their feelings hurt -- repeatedly and at length.

I trust people, including manda, are intelligent enough to see the difference.

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Originally Posted by SnickerKitten

Thank goodness he's aware of that! Imagine this scenario, Person A has your view, that cheating is only a slight hurt and we're incompatible if Person B has a problem with it and walks out the door. Person B has my view, and finds that Person A has dipped his stick outside Person B's consent. Do you see where this leads?? Person A isn't going to end up being better off thinking Person B being gone is a good riddance because "we were incompatible and he/she would end up walking out at some point anyway". Person A would be dead and Person B would be in jail. (Yes, I understand that if Rago ever did cheat on me and I killed him that I'd spend the rest of my life in jail, I'm not stupid, just a little on the extreme side.)

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And my kitten's penchant for violence aside, this is a very real scenario.

Infidelity is one of the leading causes of sudden domestic violence (meaning where no history of violence exists in the relationship). I've personally observed groups (chats and forums, not here) where the attitude was: it's okay, you need to be happy, don't worry about that other person, just yourself.

That attitude exists because, in those communities, a large portion of the members are engaged in online activities without their partner's knowledge.

Now, we know from news reports that violence has been committed when one partner discovers the other is having an online affair. So I wonder how culpable the cheating partner's online "friends" really are in that outcome? If you encourage someone to do something that could get them hurt, are you at all responsible for the results?

OK, Folks Again,,SECOND NOTICE,, There will not be a Third

This thread is going to far south,,Remember,,

OPINIONS are to be about the TOPIC!!!!!!!!

Final Warning!!!!!

Be Well

T

Does anyone here believe you can explore one side of your sexuality online without it being an affront to the sexuality of your r/l partner?


All the way back to the original question (with hopes of staying on topic). Rope monkey I have been exploring they wilder side of my sexuality OL with a very close friend. No I do not believe this is an affront to my rl partner in any way -it actually enhances our relationship. My OL friend and I often discuss more than just sexual play --which adds to many of my rl conversations. My rl partner knows I'm online and that I have friends (as does he when he goes to the local bar) but no I do not give the details of my ol play, because it is just that - play, never will it be taken to a real life meeting (yes my OL friend knows this). My friendship with my OL partner is very dear to me. My rl partner and I have been together many years and we trust each other to know the limits of what is expected - I feel I have kept within these limits. I think previous posts have gotten off topic with what constitutes cheating -truthfully I think this is a very personal thought and is different for many people - there are probably as many different view points as people answering--its a deeply personal decision you will have to make. There are many sites on whether cyber sex is cheating --and you will get both points of view- if that IS part of your question -I suggest maybe reading up on it will give you a more impartial answer.