Religion and M/s relasionship

i'm curious, how many of U/us do believe in a religion and still live this life style. i have found myself drawn to God in the last few weeks. Master and i also sat down and talked about what i have been going through. W/we both believe and agree its truly important. The biggest thing between U/us is O/our religions are different. His believes the order is family, God, and everything else. Where the religion i belong to says God, family, and everything else.
What i'm saying is if Y/you believe how do Y/you balance Y/your life and religion? When W/we talked i ask that he not ask me who i belong to. my answer is God! God is the only one i truly belong to. And when i say what Master wants me to say i feel a strange disappointed feeling inside. Master understands what i was saying and has agreed to not ask questions like that anymore. Am i wrong to ask that of Master?

I share your sensibility that God comes first. Then family. As it works out, my time belongs to my family. But my first priority, my first commitment is to God and religion. The commitment to God transcends all circumstances -- even the circumstance of family.

My submissive wife and I have young children, so I don't know that we live a 'lifestyle.' We have sexual personae that ignite each other. But it is just one role we play. I don't feel if we express sexual dominance and submission, we are compromising the other roles we play. So you have your religious commitment which you would like to transcend all the roles you play. Certainly that is the Truth, though I myself don't need to stand on principle over it. For me, I wouldn't feel you are betraying your commitment to God by addressing your Master as such.

I guess if you were to try to really integrate the sexual submission with religious submission it could be done. Certainly there are religious traditions in which submission to a husband is considered a wife's spiritual duty. Or a nun or monk might be obediant to a superior. In The Story of O, there's a brief passage in which O identifies her submission to Stephen as like submission to a God. In Buddhism and Hinduism, some Gods have consorts. You might approach your sexual relationship in that way as being of service to the divine Masculine.

In any event, thank you for sharing your faith and blessings to you.

Perhaps all you need is a change of perspective:

We all technically belong to God do we not? Even those of us who do not expouse a belief in a surpreme deity or a creator technically belong to God (since disbelief or lack thereof does nothing to diminish said dieties power really).

And we all technically belong in one way or another to a wide variety of both familial and social catagories of possession in addition to the overall all encompassing "belonging to God" etc. Such as John is a Mason, Paul is a Priest, Thomas is a Baptist, Roger is my brother, Lora is my friend etc.

So...Yes, I, you, my cat, the entire universe and everything in it; does belong to God, but we all also belong to others in a way as well, for instance: I also belong (catagorically or universally by definition) to my family, my country, my city, my proffession, my spouse (who in this case also happens to be my "owner"),etc.

I hope that analogy kind of helps you view your situation in a different light.

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Originally Posted by denuseri

We all technically belong to God do we not? Even those of us who do not expouse a belief in a surpreme deity or a creator technically belong to God (since disbelief or lack thereof does nothing to diminish said dieties power really).

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Wow! I felt that one all the way over here! But I'll behave. I just want to point out how much REAL power Odin, and Zeus, and Apollo, and Venus, and Osiris still have, despite not having any real believers. Just sayin'!

As for the OP, I think each of us has to deal with our beliefs (or lack of beliefs) in our own way. Assuming the Judeo/Christian God (which is what most Americans mean when they speak of God) I would have a hard time reconciling the conflict between God and any kind of non-vanilla sexual activities. Submission to your husband, though, is consistent with His teachings.

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Originally Posted by pyxzie

i'm curious, how many of U/us do believe in a religion and still live this life style. i have found myself drawn to God in the last few weeks. Master and i also sat down and talked about what i have been going through. W/we both believe and agree its truly important. The biggest thing between U/us is O/our religions are different. His believes the order is family, God, and everything else. Where the religion i belong to says God, family, and everything else.
What i'm saying is if Y/you believe how do Y/you balance Y/your life and religion? When W/we talked i ask that he not ask me who i belong to. my answer is God! God is the only one i truly belong to. And when i say what Master wants me to say i feel a strange disappointed feeling inside. Master understands what i was saying and has agreed to not ask questions like that anymore. Am i wrong to ask that of Master?

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I would say that you are correct in asking this of him as it is what you feel, and he should know how you feel. And then you two must take it from there.

My Lord and I are both spiritually minded, we are pagans, and that is not in the way of our life style since we do not belong to our Gods, but are of them, one with them you might say.

I think I see your problem, though. But as I think deniseri is saying, if you both belong to God, is there really a problem in priority? You belong to your God and to your master, who also belongs to God. Is there a problem with belongng to both?

There is no conflict in my mind because there is a clear chain of command. God is the CEO. My future husband is the immediate supervisor. On this earth, I am supposed to submit to my own husband who is accountable to God. Therefore, I belong to both of them.

i am a deeply spiritual woman who submits to my Master/husband. I am also in recovery which makes for me the priority list God, recovery, self, everything else... Master says he owns me and i belong to Him yet as some have reflected above, it is in a different sense for me. God owns my entirety in a way a human can't but it doesn't diminish the ownership of my husband. I could choose to ignore God, yet i would still be his anyway...but i could walk away from my husband if i needed to for my health or that of my kids and while i may miss him even, long for him i still get to walk away from him. no matter what his ownership of me is, it is not something i didn't choose to do. i will admit that i feel like i would break myself if i had to walk away from that relationship but i could if i had to. where i have walked away from God and i was still his kid. I guess thats how i see it in a way, similar to the way a parent is with a kid is how God is with me. its much much deeper than that, yet that is the simplest analogy i can think of.

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Originally Posted by Flaming_Redhead

There is no conflict in my mind because there is a clear chain of command. God is the CEO. My future husband is the immediate supervisor. On this earth, I am supposed to submit to my own husband who is accountable to God. Therefore, I belong to both of them.

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The important question is WHY you submit. Is it by your own choice? Or is it because some priest/minister/prophet says you're supposed to submit? Just because you may believe you do it because you want to, does not mean you haven't been taught to believe it because someone else wants you to submit. It's a fine line.

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

i could walk away from my husband if i needed to for my health or that of my kids and while i may miss him even, long for him i still get to walk away from him. no matter what his ownership of me is, it is not something i didn't choose to do.

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And I can respect that choice.

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I could choose to ignore God, yet i would still be his anyway...

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Why is it you don't feel free to walk away from God? You admit that you don't have the choice? That sounds like old fashioned slavery to me.

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I guess thats how i see it in a way, similar to the way a parent is with a kid is how God is with me.

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Yet every child must eventually reach a stage in her life when she must leave her parents behind, go out on her own and make a life for herself. Sure, her parents will always be there, to provides support and love, but the relationship changes, generally. As an adult woman, free to make her own choices in this world, what compels you to view yourself as a child dependent upon a god?

Thorne, i actually have walked away from God...didn't change the fact that God was there for me (knew you wouldn't be able to resist this thread ; ) ) and despite the fact that children grow up and move on with their lives (god willing..;) ), their parents are still their parents and as you said that relationship changes so has my relationship with god. My Master owns my body by my compliance, and if he became unhealthy for me in such a way that he endangers my health or safety, or that of my kids I would be forced to leave. My dependance upon God is not such that i sit home on my knees waiting for commands to do as i am bidden. It is something that gives me purpose and hope and honestly i don't know that i could hope to find words to explain to you why its a good thing knowing how you feel about the topic. I have no issue continuing the topic if you wish, i just don't want to hijack the thread.

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

My dependance upon God is not such that i sit home on my knees waiting for commands to do as i am bidden. It is something that gives me purpose and hope

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For the most part I have no quarrel with someone having faith. I think faith can be a good thing, whether it's applied to your husband or your god. The phrase, "dependance upon God" confuses me, though. Just what are you dependent upon regarding God? You mentioned health and recovery earlier. Are you depending on God to help you? Or are you going to the doctor for help? If praying to God makes you feel calmer and eases your mind, naturally that's going to help you to recover. But you cannot rely solely on prayer.

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I have no issue continuing the topic if you wish, i just don't want to hijack the thread.

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I'm not trying to proselytize and turn people away from their gods, here. I am interested in how people feel they interact with their gods, especially on a personal level. I do try to argue people away from organized religions, since it's been my experience that following such religions puts an intermediary (priest, minister, rabbi, etc.) between a person and his god. So if you want to continue this we can start a new thread and have a frank discussion about faith, and lack of faith.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

For the most part I have no quarrel with someone having faith. I think faith can be a good thing, whether it's applied to your husband or your god. The phrase, "dependance upon God" confuses me, though. Just what are you dependent upon regarding God? You mentioned health and recovery earlier. Are you depending on God to help you? Or are you going to the doctor for help? If praying to God makes you feel calmer and eases your mind, naturally that's going to help you to recover. But you cannot rely solely on prayer.


I'm not trying to proselytize and turn people away from their gods, here. I am interested in how people feel they interact with their gods, especially on a personal level. I do try to argue people away from organized religions, since it's been my experience that following such religions puts an intermediary (priest, minister, rabbi, etc.) between a person and his god. So if you want to continue this we can start a new thread and have a frank discussion about faith, and lack of faith.

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give it a name and i will happily attend...

no, recovery is not just about prayer. It is largely about action in an altruistic sense of the word, largely about doing what has worked for others based on the faith that i can stay sober doing what they did. its largely about being willing to believe that God can remove the things that diminish my usefulness to others. i couldn't stop using, i have stopped using. i did all i could do to stop using except for allowing God in and all i got was high. once i allowed god of my own understanding in and did what i could to get the garbage out...i got better. doesn't matter whether or not that isn't anything other than therapeutic ideas at work. Tried science and my own will, tried marriage, kids, good reasons and bad reasons, tried everything and nothing but this worked. give it a name and i will follow the thread there.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

The important question is WHY you submit. Is it by your own choice? Or is it because some priest/minister/prophet says you're supposed to submit? Just because you may believe you do it because you want to, does not mean you haven't been taught to believe it because someone else wants you to submit. It's a fine line.

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I'm not what you'd call devout, and I can't recall the topic of wives submitting to their husbands ever being brought up until I was already a married adult. It wasn't drilled into me. It resonated with what I already believe.

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

Tried science and my own will, tried marriage, kids, good reasons and bad reasons, tried everything and nothing but this worked.

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While not nearly as devastating as your addictions, I had tried for years to give up smoking. Nothing worked until I finally, in my own mind, decided that I HAD to give up smoking. No science, no gods, no magic powders. Just me deciding it was time.
Regardless of how you think you did it, I give all the credit to you. YOU decided you had to stop. YOU decided to change. YOU made that change happen. Don't sell yourself short. Don't give credit where it isn't due. Regardless of the paths you traveled, it was YOU who reached the peace of mind, whether through prayer or meditation, to make yourself change. I congratulate YOU for every bit of it.

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Originally Posted by Flaming_Redhead

I'm not what you'd call devout, and I can't recall the topic of wives submitting to their husbands ever being brought up until I was already a married adult. It wasn't drilled into me. It resonated with what I already believe.

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If that resonates within you, great. I know there are some who truly find themselves through submission to another. Not being the submissive sort I have difficulty understanding it, but I know it's true.
And I'm sure the subject of wives submitting to their husbands wasn't "drilled into" you. Being a child of the 50's and 60's, I grew up in the prevalent culture of women being housewives and submissive, to some degree. It wasn't preached or taught, it was simply there, absorbed through the culture of the times. It was expected. Girls growing up in that environment had little choice about their future, expecting to become obedient wives and mothers. There are still areas of the US where such environments thrive. Most (though not all) of them are in religious communities, such as the Mormons, Amish, Muslims, even the Catholics. Girls aren't taught that they must be submissive, they are shown it throughout their lives by the adult women around them. So when they grow into adulthood and become women themselves they naturally become what their mother's were. It's subtle but it's relentless, and it can be damned near impossible to break away from such teachings.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

While not nearly as devastating as your addictions, I had tried for years to give up smoking. Nothing worked until I finally, in my own mind, decided that I HAD to give up smoking. No science, no gods, no magic powders. Just me deciding it was time.
Regardless of how you think you did it, I give all the credit to you. YOU decided you had to stop. YOU decided to change. YOU made that change happen. Don't sell yourself short. Don't give credit where it isn't due. Regardless of the paths you traveled, it was YOU who reached the peace of mind, whether through prayer or meditation, to make yourself change. I congratulate YOU for every bit of it.

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while I appreciate your congrats, I believe the type of addict I am is of the hopeless variety. Meaning will power has nothing to do with it, i am completely beyond choice. The book alcoholics anonymous would explain way better than i ever could. the first 164 pages are the most relevant for what I am speaking of. It doesn't take away from my life, it adds to it. I am not of the belief system included in contemporary judeo/christian practices. I am more a pagan i guess they would describe me as. i check other on medical forms. i am honestly enjoying having a relationship with God. It isn't something that detracts from my accomplishments or responsibilties...it augments them.

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

i am honestly enjoying having a relationship with God. It isn't something that detracts from my accomplishments or responsibilties...it augments them.

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There's little I can say to argue against such things. For my own part, I don't see the benefit for believing in a supernatural being with no evidence and which cannot be shown to actually have any tangible effects in the real world. I see it as all being within you, and me. Perhaps the AA book was able to help you realize your potential, bring clarity to you and allow you to take back control. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, so I can't say one way or the other. I feel that we need to take responsibility not only for our own failings but for our own accomplishments in overcoming those failings.

Believing that your addiction is hopeless is giving in, denying your own responsibility. True, it could be a real, physical weakness, one which can be treated with medicines. Or it could be an emotional problem, which you have to take responsibility for. Either way, I don't see any gods making the way easier.

Strange discussion on a BDSM forum. Religion has historically been one of the most effective weapons to impose power over people, make them believe blindly and you own them... Most wars mankind ever had were driven by religion and also today we see e new phenomenon: terrorism motivated by... yes religion. It proves how easy it is to make people believe almost whatever one clever Dom wants. Personally I understand the universe very well, I can live with the unanswered questions of physics and see no need to believe in any fairy tails. Any problem I encounter in live, I solve with my own thinking. For me it is a mystery why people can get religious. Political leaders need religion to brainwash people in order to rule them, they have a good practical reason to pretend as if they believe... but ordinary people? May be people hate to think and prefer therefore to believe?

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Originally Posted by sm8591

but ordinary people? May be people hate to think and prefer therefore to believe?

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I can do both (think and believe). Seems logical to me. Faith brings comfort and peace to my mind. I am an intelligent, thoughtful woman. I also believe in God. And as for tangible proof, I look no further than my children. Argue all you want.

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Originally Posted by brwneydgirl

I can do both (think and believe). Seems logical to me. Faith brings comfort and peace to my mind. I am an intelligent, thoughtful woman. I also believe in God. And as for tangible proof, I look no further than my children. Argue all you want.

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very well said, thank you...

Thorne, while i do believe that addiction is a disease I do believe it is a threefold disease. Science can treat the physical, people can treat the mental. God only can deal with the spiritual. I see miracles daily. I see them everywhere. If you don't see them, ok. I believe you can have a life as fulfilling as one who has a belief in some form of higher power. no argument there. i just believe that for me i needed something more. who cares if i am crazy? I am not on heroin anymore for years now and i am not breaking into your house, so we both can be happy with that. :)

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Originally Posted by sm8591

May be people hate to think and prefer therefore to believe?

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People have an innate need to know. That's where our curiosity comes from. And following that curiosity has brought mankind from the caves to modern society. The problems arise when it becomes important to know things which are hard to understand. Too many people are willing to settle for the simple explanations, regardless of a lack of evidence, because it's easy, it doesn't require thinking. That's where religion steps in. "God did it" is the simplest of explanations, even though there's no evidence for God or his creation. And when you are raised from infancy in a culture bathed in religious belief, you become a believer yourself. Getting away from that culture, and learning to think for yourself, can be difficult and frightening. Believe me, I know!

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Originally Posted by brwneydgirl

I can do both (think and believe). Seems logical to me. Faith brings comfort and peace to my mind. I am an intelligent, thoughtful woman. I also believe in God. And as for tangible proof, I look no further than my children. Argue all you want.

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Belief in a god is not evil, or stupid, or crazy. Many people, now and through history, have been able to reconcile gods with their intelligence. It's when people try to make others believe in their gods that evil and stupidity come forth. That's the province of religion, not faith.

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

God only can deal with the spiritual.

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That assumes that there is some kind of spiritual, or supernatural, aspect to our lives. I don't see that.

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I see miracles daily. I see them everywhere. If you don't see them, ok.

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I see the same things you see, but I don't see them as miracles. I have this urge, this need, to look BEHIND the curtain, and see what's really going on. Assuming something is a miracle just because it feels good doesn't work. How can you then determine whether or not something which feels bad is or is not a miracle? When a plane crashes and one person survives, people are quick to claim a miracle. But what about the 100 or more people who died? Where was their miracle? If one of those who died were from your family, would you still see it as a miracle that one person survived? No, miracles are only ordinary occurrences which haven't yet been explained. Nothing supernatural about them.

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I believe you can have a life as fulfilling as one who has a belief in some form of higher power. no argument there.

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Well, that puts you miles ahead of the Pope, at least. He recently equated atheists with Nazis. And most fundamentalists believe that we atheists are inherently evil, since we don't have the same moral center as they do.

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who cares if i am crazy? I am not on heroin anymore for years now and i am not breaking into your house, so we both can be happy with that.

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No one says you're crazy! I just believe that you would be far better off if you could recognize your own self-worth without resorting to the supernatural. As I said, you've come a long way, and I give you full credit for every painful step.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

If that resonates within you, great. I know there are some who truly find themselves through submission to another. Not being the submissive sort I have difficulty understanding it, but I know it's true.
And I'm sure the subject of wives submitting to their husbands wasn't "drilled into" you. Being a child of the 50's and 60's, I grew up in the prevalent culture of women being housewives and submissive, to some degree. It wasn't preached or taught, it was simply there, absorbed through the culture of the times. It was expected. Girls growing up in that environment had little choice about their future, expecting to become obedient wives and mothers. There are still areas of the US where such environments thrive. Most (though not all) of them are in religious communities, such as the Mormons, Amish, Muslims, even the Catholics. Girls aren't taught that they must be submissive, they are shown it throughout their lives by the adult women around them. So when they grow into adulthood and become women themselves they naturally become what their mother's were. It's subtle but it's relentless, and it can be damned near impossible to break away from such teachings.

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I actually LOL'd. My mother came of age in the '70s. She's a feminist, going so far as to say Paul's teachings aren't necessarily doctrine. She has looked at me on more than one occasion and wondered aloud if there wasn't some mix up at the hospital.....hahahahaha!

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Originally Posted by Thorne

I see the same things you see, but I don't see them as miracles. I have this urge, this need, to look BEHIND the curtain, and see what's really going on. Assuming something is a miracle just because it feels good doesn't work. How can you then determine whether or not something which feels bad is or is not a miracle? When a plane crashes and one person survives, people are quick to claim a miracle. But what about the 100 or more people who died? Where was their miracle? If one of those who died were from your family, would you still see it as a miracle that one person survived? No, miracles are only ordinary occurrences which haven't yet been explained. Nothing supernatural about them.

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It is not lack of understand that makes something a miracle nor it needing to be supernatural. It is the difference in perspective at seeing a statistical inevitability. If you just go wow that was odd then it's not a miracle. It is when you are filled with awe and gratitude that makes it a miracle. When you (or someone you care about) is that one in million survivor, it is that feeling of gratitude not focused on a person that makes it turn toward the spiritual. Thus even after knowing the scientific explanation the feeling does not subside, that is what it a miracle.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

That assumes that there is some kind of spiritual, or supernatural, aspect to our lives. I don't see that.

I see the same things you see, but I don't see them as miracles. I have this urge, this need, to look BEHIND the curtain, and see what's really going on. Assuming something is a miracle just because it feels good doesn't work. How can you then determine whether or not something which feels bad is or is not a miracle? When a plane crashes and one person survives, people are quick to claim a miracle. But what about the 100 or more people who died? Where was their miracle? If one of those who died were from your family, would you still see it as a miracle that one person survived? No, miracles are only ordinary occurrences which haven't yet been explained. Nothing supernatural about them.


its not about for me trying to ease suffering. Tragedy is tragedy and its not something i look to God to make sense of. Death is part of existence for all and there is usually something about it that makes it difficult regardless of how or what the death is about. I wake up and see the sunrise and to me I am grateful that I see it and feel gifted to have experienced that. I see people who had tried everything to stay sober and failed try AA and the program of action and recover. That is the miracles I see. As of yet science has not been able to help us. There is not treatment for us that has been successful for most of us outside of AA and that is a simple, spiritual program and those are the miracles i see. I have 3 kids and the miracle of this astounds me constantly. there is nothing behind the curtain in these. they just are the most incredible things i get to see everyday.

Well, that puts you miles ahead of the Pope, at least. He recently equated atheists with Nazis. And most fundamentalists believe that we atheists are inherently evil, since we don't have the same moral center as they do.


wasn't he a nazi?
No one says you're crazy! I just believe that you would be far better off if you could recognize your own self-worth without resorting to the supernatural. As I said, you've come a long way, and I give you full credit for every painful step.

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why?

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

As of yet science has not been able to help us. There is not treatment for us that has been successful for most of us outside of AA and that is a simple, spiritual program and those are the miracles i see.

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I'm not familiar with the AA program, except in a very general sense, but it's my understanding that the real help there comes from interacting with others like yourself. Basically using psychological/sociological tools (which I would classify as soft sciences) to treat what is basically an emotional/psychological problem. (The physical addiction can only be treated through abstinence, which the program helps you maintain.) I'm sure the same results could be (probably have been) achieved without the religious/spiritual overlay. So really, no miracle. Just science.

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I have 3 kids and the miracle of this astounds me constantly.

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I have two kids, and now two brand new grandkids. I see the same awesome, wonderful beauty that you do. But I see it as all natural, nothing spiritual about it. That doesn't make it any less beautiful, or any less wonderful. But it's not miraculous.

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why?

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Why do I five you full credit? Because I see that you have done it all yourself. Certainly you had help from the program. But without doing all of the work, without attending the meetings, without the desire to better yourself, the program could not have done anything. YOU did it, and you deserve the credit. Giving the credit to your god or your religion is only telling yourself that you aren't capable of helping yourself, something which I will not believe.

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Originally Posted by CuddleDom

It is not lack of understand that makes something a miracle nor it needing to be supernatural. It is the difference in perspective at seeing a statistical inevitability. If you just go wow that was odd then it's not a miracle. It is when you are filled with awe and gratitude that makes it a miracle. When you (or someone you care about) is that one in million survivor, it is that feeling of gratitude not focused on a person that makes it turn toward the spiritual. Thus even after knowing the scientific explanation the feeling does not subside, that is what it a miracle.

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A miracle, by definition, is something which has no explanation. It's something which defies nature, as we understand it. Naturally, something which is statistically inevitable cannot be a miracle. It will happen, eventually. But something which has a very low probability is not a miracle either. While it may not happen for a very long time, it's still likely that it will happen, eventually. 100 people dying in a plane crash is obviously not a miracle. One person surviving that same crash is improbable, but not impossible. Still not a miracle. Even 100 people surviving, while highly unlikely, is not impossible (see: "Miracle" on the Hudson). Thus, not a miracle.

The term "miracle" is used far too often in the media to explain occurrences which are unlikely but which do not defy natural law. By definition, a miracle must be supernatural, must defy natural laws. But we must also be aware of Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I'm not familiar with the AA program, except in a very general sense, but it's my understanding that the real help there comes from interacting with others like yourself. Basically using psychological/sociological tools (which I would classify as soft sciences) to treat what is basically an emotional/psychological problem. (The physical addiction can only be treated through abstinence, which the program helps you maintain.) I'm sure the same results could be (probably have been) achieved without the religious/spiritual overlay. So really, no miracle. Just science.


actually no, it has been tried without a spiritual component and its not been successful for most. many many many of us just die without it or get shut up somewhere. The symptoms of addiction are really beyond the physical craving for alcohol, largely symptoms of spiritual unrest. If it was only that i had to avoid alcohol or drugs to keep the allergic reaction from happening, then I wouldn't have needed anyones help at all. if just understanding the disease and therapy or a support group would have helped then that too would have helped me. the only piece missing for 25 years of relapse was God and once I accepted i needed Gods help I got and stayed sober.

I have two kids, and now two brand new grandkids. I see the same awesome, wonderful beauty that you do. But I see it as all natural, nothing spiritual about it. That doesn't make it any less beautiful, or any less wonderful. But it's not miraculous.


but the feeling you have for them can be described in spiritual terms unless you prefer to think of it as a hormone laden desire to pass on your genes. what is love but a deep and profound spiritual experience?

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

the only piece missing for 25 years of relapse was God and once I accepted i needed Gods help I got and stayed sober.

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Well, you go right on thanking your god, then, and I'll go right on congratulating you for your work.

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but the feeling you have for them can be described in spiritual terms unless you prefer to think of it as a hormone laden desire to pass on your genes. what is love but a deep and profound spiritual experience?

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But that's just it! Love is an emotional response, brought about by hormones and our own minds. If you wish to think of that as spiritual then go right ahead. To me, though, spiritual implies something from beyond the body, from beyond the natural. It is by definition supernatural. I have never witnessed or experienced anything supernatural. At best, I may have experienced something for which I may not have had an explanation at the time. That makes it unknown, not supernatural.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

Well, you go right on thanking your god, then, and I'll go right on congratulating you for your work.


But that's just it! Love is an emotional response, brought about by hormones and our own minds. If you wish to think of that as spiritual then go right ahead. To me, though, spiritual implies something from beyond the body, from beyond the natural. It is by definition supernatural. I have never witnessed or experienced anything supernatural. At best, I may have experienced something for which I may not have had an explanation at the time. That makes it unknown, not supernatural.

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You know what? There are just too many things out there that can't be explained in scientific terms or that science hasn't been able to solve. While I very much appreciate the congrats for staying clean, I do put a dramatic amount of work into it. The work goes into helping others in large part as you have said way above, but also into clearing away closed mindedness, resentments and fear through a relationship with God as I understand him...could totally be anything at all and I guess if science can come in between someone and a drink or a drug then cool! I am so pleased that I have a hgher power that is more comforting to me than that, but thats what I need.

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

You know what? There are just too many things out there that can't be explained in scientific terms or that science hasn't been able to solve.

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Hasn't been able to solve YET. Science keeps on working, learning, evolving. Is it possible to learn everything about everything? I doubt it very much. There's just too much universe out there, too much time that has passed, too many barriers in the way.

But that doesn't mean we must decide that anything we don't know must be because of God. And even if it WERE caused by a god, how could we know that it was YOUR god, your particular definition of a supernatural being? We cannot. It can only be taken on faith, without evidence. I don't have that faith. I need evidence. And given the lack of evidence, despite the efforts of believers since the dawn of religions, I am comfortable in saying that there are probably no gods.

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I am so pleased that I have a hgher power that is more comforting to me than that, but thats what I need.

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And I am happy that you have that faith to sustain you. I would not try to take that from you. All I'm saying is that you need to give yourself more credit than you seem to want to do.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

A miracle, by definition, is something which has no explanation. It's something which defies nature, as we understand it. Naturally, something which is statistically inevitable cannot be a miracle. It will happen, eventually. But something which has a very low probability is not a miracle either. While it may not happen for a very long time, it's still likely that it will happen, eventually. 100 people dying in a plane crash is obviously not a miracle. One person surviving that same crash is improbable, but not impossible. Still not a miracle. Even 100 people surviving, while highly unlikely, is not impossible (see: "Miracle" on the Hudson). Thus, not a miracle.

The term "miracle" is used far too often in the media to explain occurrences which are unlikely but which do not defy natural law. By definition, a miracle must be supernatural, must defy natural laws. But we must also be aware of Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

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mir·a·cle   
[mir-uh-kuhl] Show IPA
–noun
1.an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2.such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of god.
3.a wonder; marvel.
4.a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.

It is the third definition I am refering too.

as you say the term miracle is often used by the media to describe occurences that are unlikely. Hence why the 3rd definition is more common these days than the 1st.

I agree with Clarke's Law. Which is one of reasons why such things as magic and miracles are subjective by their very nature.

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Originally Posted by CuddleDom

It is the third definition I am refering too.

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Yeah, and I've used that definition myself. But when you see people use the term 'miracle' in reference to an image of Elvis on a burnt piece or toast, or the face of Jesus in a plate of spaghetti, or condensation on a statue of Mary, they are generally referring to the first two definitions, usually because they don't understand what they are seeing and WANT to attribute it to supernatural sources. Basically, anything they don't understand must be a miracle or caused by God. I try to be just a little less gullible.

Isn't it human nature to seek patterns? Like seeking images in clouds.

As for the causality, once again I put it down to that feeling of awe. If it is something important to a person whether it be Jesus or Elvis, then they will attribute it to their higher power. While if it does not cause that awe like seeing a horse in the clouds then it is just a whimsical experience.

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Originally Posted by CuddleDom

Isn't it human nature to seek patterns? Like seeking images in clouds.

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Yes, it it. It's wired into our brains. That's one of the reason's why emoticons convey so much information: we see and recognize not only faces but even emotions in just a couple of well-placed punctuation marks.

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As for the causality, once again I put it down to that feeling of awe. If it is something important to a person whether it be Jesus or Elvis, then they will attribute it to their higher power. While if it does not cause that awe like seeing a horse in the clouds then it is just a whimsical experience.

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And this is precisely why we have to be able to understand why we see what we see. Just because seeing an image of Jesus in a swirl of pizza sauce might have some meaning for you does not make it any less whimsical than seeing that horse in the clouds.