Religion and M/s relasionship

[brwneydgirl]

but ordinary people? May be people hate to think and prefer therefore to believe?

I can do both (think and believe). Seems logical to me. Faith brings comfort and peace to my mind. I am an intelligent, thoughtful woman. I also believe in God. And as for tangible proof, I look no further than my children. Argue all you want.

[13'sbadkitty]

I can do both (think and believe). Seems logical to me. Faith brings comfort and peace to my mind. I am an intelligent, thoughtful woman. I also believe in God. And as for tangible proof, I look no further than my children. Argue all you want.

very well said, thank you...

Thorne, while i do believe that addiction is a disease I do believe it is a threefold disease. Science can treat the physical, people can treat the mental. God only can deal with the spiritual. I see miracles daily. I see them everywhere. If you don't see them, ok. I believe you can have a life as fulfilling as one who has a belief in some form of higher power. no argument there. i just believe that for me i needed something more. who cares if i am crazy? I am not on heroin anymore for years now and i am not breaking into your house, so we both can be happy with that.

[Thorne]

God only can deal with the spiritual.

That assumes that there is some kind of spiritual, or supernatural, aspect to our lives. I don't see that.

I see miracles daily. I see them everywhere. If you don't see them, ok.

I see the same things you see, but I don't see them as miracles. I have this urge, this need, to look BEHIND the curtain, and see what's really going on. Assuming something is a miracle just because it feels good doesn't work. How can you then determine whether or not something which feels bad is or is not a miracle? When a plane crashes and one person survives, people are quick to claim a miracle. But what about the 100 or more people who died? Where was their miracle? If one of those who died were from your family, would you still see it as a miracle that one person survived? No, miracles are only ordinary occurrences which haven't yet been explained. Nothing supernatural about them.

I believe you can have a life as fulfilling as one who has a belief in some form of higher power. no argument there.

Well, that puts you miles ahead of the Pope, at least. He recently equated atheists with Nazis. And most fundamentalists believe that we atheists are inherently evil, since we don't have the same moral center as they do.

who cares if i am crazy? I am not on heroin anymore for years now and i am not breaking into your house, so we both can be happy with that.

No one says you're crazy! I just believe that you would be far better off if you could recognize your own self-worth without resorting to the supernatural. As I said, you've come a long way, and I give you full credit for every painful step.

[CuddleDom]

I see the same things you see, but I don't see them as miracles. I have this urge, this need, to look BEHIND the curtain, and see what's really going on. Assuming something is a miracle just because it feels good doesn't work. How can you then determine whether or not something which feels bad is or is not a miracle? When a plane crashes and one person survives, people are quick to claim a miracle. But what about the 100 or more people who died? Where was their miracle? If one of those who died were from your family, would you still see it as a miracle that one person survived? No, miracles are only ordinary occurrences which haven't yet been explained. Nothing supernatural about them.

It is not lack of understand that makes something a miracle nor it needing to be supernatural. It is the difference in perspective at seeing a statistical inevitability. If you just go wow that was odd then it's not a miracle. It is when you are filled with awe and gratitude that makes it a miracle. When you (or someone you care about) is that one in million survivor, it is that feeling of gratitude not focused on a person that makes it turn toward the spiritual. Thus even after knowing the scientific explanation the feeling does not subside, that is what it a miracle.

[Thorne]

It is not lack of understand that makes something a miracle nor it needing to be supernatural. It is the difference in perspective at seeing a statistical inevitability. If you just go wow that was odd then it's not a miracle. It is when you are filled with awe and gratitude that makes it a miracle. When you (or someone you care about) is that one in million survivor, it is that feeling of gratitude not focused on a person that makes it turn toward the spiritual. Thus even after knowing the scientific explanation the feeling does not subside, that is what it a miracle.

A miracle, by definition, is something which has no explanation. It's something which defies nature, as we understand it. Naturally, something which is statistically inevitable cannot be a miracle. It will happen, eventually. But something which has a very low probability is not a miracle either. While it may not happen for a very long time, it's still likely that it will happen, eventually. 100 people dying in a plane crash is obviously not a miracle. One person surviving that same crash is improbable, but not impossible. Still not a miracle. Even 100 people surviving, while highly unlikely, is not impossible (see: "Miracle" on the Hudson). Thus, not a miracle.

The term "miracle" is used far too often in the media to explain occurrences which are unlikely but which do not defy natural law. By definition, a miracle must be supernatural, must defy natural laws. But we must also be aware of Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

[CuddleDom]

A miracle, by definition, is something which has no explanation. It's something which defies nature, as we understand it. Naturally, something which is statistically inevitable cannot be a miracle. It will happen, eventually. But something which has a very low probability is not a miracle either. While it may not happen for a very long time, it's still likely that it will happen, eventually. 100 people dying in a plane crash is obviously not a miracle. One person surviving that same crash is improbable, but not impossible. Still not a miracle. Even 100 people surviving, while highly unlikely, is not impossible (see: "Miracle" on the Hudson). Thus, not a miracle.

The term "miracle" is used far too often in the media to explain occurrences which are unlikely but which do not defy natural law. By definition, a miracle must be supernatural, must defy natural laws. But we must also be aware of Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

mir·a·cle   
[mir-uh-kuhl] Show IPA
–noun
1.an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2.such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of god.
3.a wonder; marvel.
4.a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.

It is the third definition I am refering too.

as you say the term miracle is often used by the media to describe occurences that are unlikely. Hence why the 3rd definition is more common these days than the 1st.

I agree with Clarke's Law. Which is one of reasons why such things as magic and miracles are subjective by their very nature.

[Thorne]

It is the third definition I am refering too.

Yeah, and I've used that definition myself. But when you see people use the term 'miracle' in reference to an image of Elvis on a burnt piece or toast, or the face of Jesus in a plate of spaghetti, or condensation on a statue of Mary, they are generally referring to the first two definitions, usually because they don't understand what they are seeing and WANT to attribute it to supernatural sources. Basically, anything they don't understand must be a miracle or caused by God. I try to be just a little less gullible.

[13'sbadkitty]

That assumes that there is some kind of spiritual, or supernatural, aspect to our lives. I don't see that.

I see the same things you see, but I don't see them as miracles. I have this urge, this need, to look BEHIND the curtain, and see what's really going on. Assuming something is a miracle just because it feels good doesn't work. How can you then determine whether or not something which feels bad is or is not a miracle? When a plane crashes and one person survives, people are quick to claim a miracle. But what about the 100 or more people who died? Where was their miracle? If one of those who died were from your family, would you still see it as a miracle that one person survived? No, miracles are only ordinary occurrences which haven't yet been explained. Nothing supernatural about them.


its not about for me trying to ease suffering. Tragedy is tragedy and its not something i look to God to make sense of. Death is part of existence for all and there is usually something about it that makes it difficult regardless of how or what the death is about. I wake up and see the sunrise and to me I am grateful that I see it and feel gifted to have experienced that. I see people who had tried everything to stay sober and failed try AA and the program of action and recover. That is the miracles I see. As of yet science has not been able to help us. There is not treatment for us that has been successful for most of us outside of AA and that is a simple, spiritual program and those are the miracles i see. I have 3 kids and the miracle of this astounds me constantly. there is nothing behind the curtain in these. they just are the most incredible things i get to see everyday.

Well, that puts you miles ahead of the Pope, at least. He recently equated atheists with Nazis. And most fundamentalists believe that we atheists are inherently evil, since we don't have the same moral center as they do.


wasn't he a nazi?
No one says you're crazy! I just believe that you would be far better off if you could recognize your own self-worth without resorting to the supernatural. As I said, you've come a long way, and I give you full credit for every painful step.

why?

[Thorne]

As of yet science has not been able to help us. There is not treatment for us that has been successful for most of us outside of AA and that is a simple, spiritual program and those are the miracles i see.

I'm not familiar with the AA program, except in a very general sense, but it's my understanding that the real help there comes from interacting with others like yourself. Basically using psychological/sociological tools (which I would classify as soft sciences) to treat what is basically an emotional/psychological problem. (The physical addiction can only be treated through abstinence, which the program helps you maintain.) I'm sure the same results could be (probably have been) achieved without the religious/spiritual overlay. So really, no miracle. Just science.

I have 3 kids and the miracle of this astounds me constantly.

I have two kids, and now two brand new grandkids. I see the same awesome, wonderful beauty that you do. But I see it as all natural, nothing spiritual about it. That doesn't make it any less beautiful, or any less wonderful. But it's not miraculous.

why?

Why do I five you full credit? Because I see that you have done it all yourself. Certainly you had help from the program. But without doing all of the work, without attending the meetings, without the desire to better yourself, the program could not have done anything. YOU did it, and you deserve the credit. Giving the credit to your god or your religion is only telling yourself that you aren't capable of helping yourself, something which I will not believe.

[Thorne]

I can do both (think and believe). Seems logical to me. Faith brings comfort and peace to my mind. I am an intelligent, thoughtful woman. I also believe in God. And as for tangible proof, I look no further than my children. Argue all you want.

Belief in a god is not evil, or stupid, or crazy. Many people, now and through history, have been able to reconcile gods with their intelligence. It's when people try to make others believe in their gods that evil and stupidity come forth. That's the province of religion, not faith.