Dirty Words

[Flaming_Redhead]

When I refer to someone as a "doormat," I am referring to someone that does not strive to embrace their submission, but defers to it becuase they just don't feel worthy to be anything else. To me, that is an insult to submission and many submissives. Submission is a level of service and personality, not the default reaction to low self-esteem.

Speaking from my own personal experience, I had not strived to embrace submission because of low self-esteem, meaning I wanted nothing to do with being submissive since I felt that it had only gotten me mistreated. People defer to abuse because they don't feel worthy of anything else. I'm sorry that you feel people with submissive personalities who are victims of abuse are an insult. According to dictionary.com, submission is defined as an act or instance of submitting, the condition of having submitted, or submissive conduct or attitude. I fail to see how this means anyone is exalted for their service and personality or somehow doesn't meet the definition because of low self-esteem. It is what it is whether it's good or bad.

I'm not sure I would say that. My submission to J was special to him because it was something very few people would or could ever get from me. It was exclusive. It made him feel special to recieve something unique. It made me feel the same way to give it.

The point I was trying to make was that these dominants seem to be inferring that they care more about what potential skills, property, or money one can bring to the relationship than how submissive or willing to please someone is. This leads me to believe that they do not wish to invest a great deal of their resources to train or care for this person they're looking for to serve them. If I had what they were looking for, they would be the last one to get it.

Again, I think it's a matter of exclusivity - the desire to be needed by someone who doesn't need simply for the sake of it - they (the Dominant)are wanted for something very special that only they can seem to provide for the submissive.

Believe me, the people who need it realize how very special it is.

I need a bit of clarification here as well... When you say "she's to be nothing more than a fetch-and-carry when she gets home," I sense a little of the same predjudice that this post seems to be appealing against. I myself don't care for the phrase "nothing more than."

Good catch! Yes, I have been struggling with the same prejudice, even against myself. Probably especially against myself.

I don't know if "need" is a dirty word, but "choice" is indeed a beautiful one. If it weren't an issue of choice and simply one of need, I guess the specifics of our partners wouldn't be an issue. We could all just line up as Doms and subs and pair off.

For example, I need to eat. But I choose what I like, I choose to take time to prepare it and serve it, or I choose not to care. If I just answered the need I could eat dirt and get by.

I guess I wasn't being very clear about choice versus need. There are people in this lifestyle who would be perfectly happy without it. There are others who would be miserable. As as person who needs dominance, I could not submit to someone unless they needed my submission to be happy. That's my choice. Why would I submit to someone who may decide one day that he's had enough and doesn't want to be in control anymore?

I certainly hope that because I am who I am, I don't act like I am better than anyone else. I will admit though, I do worry about the safety of subs that sub to anyone and anything, and I worry about the Masters that seek out a sub that will be collared without any type of criteria for the one that collars her. Those are the "doormats" to me and it's scary how easily they can be damaged and taken advantage of.

Everyone, I think, should have enough respect for themselves and their role to be the best sub or Dom or whatever they can be. If you're subbing because you think you have no value and that's what you deserve, I simply see a problem.

I personally don't know anyone like that. On the contrary, people who are very submissive worry about finding the right master and worry about being taken advantage of because it's so easy to do. For me, once someone has gotten into my heart, it's very hard to assert myself. I also don't know anyone who is into the lifestyle because they're actively looking for an abuser. If anything, they come here hoping to find a healthy outlet for their needs.

[DowntownAmber]

Additional commentary in this color!




Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
When I refer to someone as a "doormat," I am referring to someone that does not strive to embrace their submission, but defers to it becuase they just don't feel worthy to be anything else. To me, that is an insult to submission and many submissives. Submission is a level of service and personality, not the default reaction to low self-esteem.

Speaking from my own personal experience, I had not strived to embrace submission because of low self-esteem, meaning I wanted nothing to do with being submissive since I felt that it had only gotten me mistreated. People defer to abuse because they don't feel worthy of anything else. I'm sorry that you feel people with submissive personalities who are victims of abuse are an insult.

I am sorry that is how you took my comment. As someone who endured threats and verbal abuse, walked away, then was tracked down, attacked, and beaten into unconsciousness several times over the period of a few hours and suffered multiple broken bones as a result; I am the last person in the world that finds victims of abuse to be an insult.

In fact, I don't recall even bringing up abuse in my statement.

But to clarify, I will rephrase how I worded my opinion: I feel that Doms and subs are both people of absolute equal value. I love, cherish, and adore my Dom and I sub to him as a direct result of that. I sub with pride. I do not sub because I think I am in any way inferior to him and that I had better do what he says because I am simply lucky to have him and lucky that he even gave a pitiful wreck like me a second glance to begin with. In speaking with many many submissives over the past few years, I have come across a fair number that do sub for those very reasons. They allow their men absolute dominion over them because they really do think they don't deserve and wouldn't have a man any other way.

Sure, many of these relationships do turn to abuse. Some, on the other hand, end up really well when a girl pairs up with a Dom that helps nurture her esteem back into the black. All moot in regards to my point as, it is not the end result of the relationship I take offense to, it is simply the fact that something so many embrace and do out of pride and love is something that is also done in degredation.

This is not an insult to anyone that has suffered abuse or has fought with low self esteem (we've all been there, trust me), it is simply my reaction to the position of "submission" being confused with being a lesser person.

According to dictionary.com, submission is defined as an act or instance of submitting, the condition of having submitted, or submissive conduct or attitude. I fail to see how this means anyone is exalted for their service and personality or somehow doesn't meet the definition because of low self-esteem. It is what it is whether it's good or bad.

I'm not saying it doesn't meet the dictionary definition of the verb, I'm just saying certain states of submission do upset me. You're entirely correct when you say it can be "good or bad."




Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
I'm not sure I would say that. My submission to J was special to him because it was something very few people would or could ever get from me. It was exclusive. It made him feel special to recieve something unique. It made me feel the same way to give it.

The point I was trying to make was that these dominants seem to be inferring that they care more about what potential skills, property, or money one can bring to the relationship than how submissive or willing to please someone is. This leads me to believe that they do not wish to invest a great deal of their resources to train or care for this person they're looking for to serve them. If I had what they were looking for, they would be the last one to get it.

I did not get where you were referring to Doms looking to find a sub with property or money, so I appreciate the clarification there. I do, however, still need some clarification as to why this would lead you to believe that these Doms, "do not wish to invest a great deal of their resources to train or care for this person they're looking for to serve them." If a Dom chooses a "Wonder Woman" as you referred to them in your OP as opposed to someone who is submissive and willing to please all the time, wouldn't it stand to reason that the Dom is going to have to invest quite a bit more time and energy into taming and training such a sub? I have a deep desire to submit, but I am also a boundary tester and a limits pusher because I need to know my Dom can hold his ground against me, if that makes sense. I don't think this makes me a better or more true sub, but it's who I am and it sure as Hell don't make me easy to deal with...lol





Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
I don't know if "need" is a dirty word, but "choice" is indeed a beautiful one. If it weren't an issue of choice and simply one of need, I guess the specifics of our partners wouldn't be an issue. We could all just line up as Doms and subs and pair off.

For example, I need to eat. But I choose what I like, I choose to take time to prepare it and serve it, or I choose not to care. If I just answered the need I could eat dirt and get by.

I guess I wasn't being very clear about choice versus need. There are people in this lifestyle who would be perfectly happy without it. There are others who would be miserable. As as person who needs dominance, I could not submit to someone unless they needed my submission to be happy. That's my choice. Why would I submit to someone who may decide one day that he's had enough and doesn't want to be in control anymore?

No, you were very clear about the difference between need and choice. I do understand that you need to be dominated and that has to be provided by someone that needs a sub. I am simply adding to that by saying once a need is determined, it is up to each person not just to fill that need but to choose the specific criteria we fill it with. I need a Dom as well, I choose only to accept one that fits criteria X, Y, Z. That's all.





Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
I certainly hope that because I am who I am, I don't act like I am better than anyone else. I will admit though, I do worry about the safety of subs that sub to anyone and anything, and I worry about the Masters that seek out a sub that will be collared without any type of criteria for the one that collars her. Those are the "doormats" to me and it's scary how easily they can be damaged and taken advantage of.

Everyone, I think, should have enough respect for themselves and their role to be the best sub or Dom or whatever they can be. If you're subbing because you think you have no value and that's what you deserve, I simply see a problem.

I personally don't know anyone like that.

Sadly, I do. And sadly I see new ones ALL THE TIME.

On the contrary, people who are very submissive worry about finding the right master and worry about being taken advantage of because it's so easy to do. For me, once someone has gotten into my heart, it's very hard to assert myself. I also don't know anyone who is into the lifestyle because they're actively looking for an abuser. If anything, they come here hoping to find a healthy outlet for their needs.

I don't think anyone is "looking" for an abuser either - I am simply saying that it is really damn easy to end up with one if you are not looking at yourself with as much value as you see in your Dom, and using your power of choice to select said Dom carefully and using a criteria that is healthy for you. We're agreeing on this point it seems.

[J-Go]

Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
I'm not sure I would say that. My submission to J was special to him because it was something very few people would or could ever get from me. It was exclusive. It made him feel special to recieve something unique. It made me feel the same way to give it. [/SIZE][/B]

yes it did very much so


... I have a deep desire to submit, but I am also a boundary tester and a limits pusher because I need to know my Dom can hold his ground against me, if that makes sense. I don't think this makes me a better or more true sub, but it's who I am and it sure as Hell don't make me easy to deal with...lol

This is the truest statement in this post


I don't think anyone is "looking" for an abuser either - I am simply saying that it is really damn easy to end up with one if you are not looking at yourself with as much value as you see in your Dom, and using your power of choice to select said Dom carefully and using a criteria that is healthy for you. We're agreeing on this point it seems.[/QUOTE]

If you don't respect yourself you crtainly will not respect your partner. If you can't respect a partner you certainly can't expect them to respect you. This is where any relationship hits rocky ground. To show up in a relationship with a list of "proper attributes" for a Dom or Sub is the kiss of death IMO.
It comes down to respect. respect a person for who and what they are not what you think they should be and you have a succssful friendship, relationship whatever...once you cross that boundry...good luck

[GearJammer]

Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
I'm not sure I would say that. My submission to J was special to him because it was something very few people would or could ever get from me. It was exclusive. It made him feel special to recieve something unique. It made me feel the same way to give it. [/SIZE][/B]

yes it did very much so


... I have a deep desire to submit, but I am also a boundary tester and a limits pusher because I need to know my Dom can hold his ground against me, if that makes sense. I don't think this makes me a better or more true sub, but it's who I am and it sure as Hell don't make me easy to deal with...lol

This is the truest statement in this post


I don't think anyone is "looking" for an abuser either - I am simply saying that it is really damn easy to end up with one if you are not looking at yourself with as much value as you see in your Dom, and using your power of choice to select said Dom carefully and using a criteria that is healthy for you. We're agreeing on this point it seems.

If you don't respect yourself you crtainly will not respect your partner. If you can't respect a partner you certainly can't expect them to respect you. This is where any relationship hits rocky ground. To show up in a relationship with a list of "proper attributes" for a Dom or Sub is the kiss of death IMO.
It comes down to respect. respect a person for who and what they are not what you think they should be and you have a succssful friendship, relationship whatever...once you cross that boundry...good luck

Well said, J, very well said. May I add only that respect given to someone who thinks they do not deserve it is exactly the recipe for Amber's "Some, on the other hand, end up really well when a girl pairs up with a Dom that helps nurture her esteem back into the black." I would go so far as to say that such is a necessary characteristic of a Dom, and without it (and others, as well) a person is not a Dom, but merely a top that is stronger than the bottom.