Gender

[Ozme52]

Is that the norm, Oz, based on research? The reason I'm questioning it, is because I know too many men who don't like curves. They're attracted more to straight lines.

As I said, it was just an observation of mine.

Nor was I suggesting there was a normative type. No specific set of curves or angles. Just a generality.

[Ozme52]

The state of being chubby gives you the shapes of curves. That's not saying all curvy women are over weight. In high school I remember telling some really mean fat girl that my curves, curved in while her's curved out.

If all straight men and lesbians liked the shape of curves then they would have found both me and the ridiculously overweight girl equally appealing. I just don't see how that would be true.

Obviously you don't want to consider the concept that it's about how we're wired in the brain... which is what the post was about... and the discussion of shapes described how I got to the concept!!

There are other cues that cause us to react, (you know, cues that create feelings in us,) both visual, such as facial hair, aural cues, olfactory cues. The things that help us recognize whom we're interfacing with. They cause reactions in the brain and thus feelings about our place in relation to the person we're in contact with.

[Ozme52]

I think there's something to this line of thinking. It's been shown from an evolutionary point of view there are definitely visual cues, that are part of our hardwiring, that are used to determine the fitness of potential mates.

By fitness, I'm not talking about pilates, I'm talking about fitness in the Darwinian sense.

I don't know about shapes necessarily, but body development in females including a certain amount of fat reserves in the thighs, hips and breasts are visual clues that do give off signals about prime reproductive age. These things are tracked by males in studies. Often it's subconcious or just people choosing their "type" - the underlying pattern is there, however.

That doesn't mean there isn't going to be some variation among individuals, though. But it is a general pattern.

Exactly. And given that, and diversity, and fetal development, and a host of other factors, I have no problem with accepting heterosexuals, homosexuals, transgendering, et. al., as a normal part of humanity.

[gagged_Louise]

Actually the ideals of an attractive body - in both men and women - have been so different over time that you'd be hard pressed to find any deepset matrix of what straight bio males, lesbians, straight women etc would appreciate. And for most older ages we don't have a lot of firm evidence of what body types women appreciated in men - only what they were supposed to like! Art works and books were mostly created or commissioned by males.

The taste for sun tanned skin and sleek, lithe, muscular bodies is a 20th century thing; in Victorian England - or France at the same time - it was pale skin and for men, rounded, firm bodies, for women fine-boned and slim frames (as you pointed out, Oz). The Romans seem to have appreciated muscular, angular women to judge from statues and coins. And so on. I'm with voxelectronica: even the same person may appreciate quite different things in body shapes, just as in music. Trying to strap it onto biological sex or straight/gay won't work.

And looking for a chemical basis to this isn't useful. It's like saying you could make a robot appreciate Beethoven's Eroica if you run the right chemical reactioins through it.

By the way, if we're talking of subconscious appreciation of the junk that is useful for bedding and procreation, the other day I asked a lady I trust a lot on this forum if she felt that women in general see cocks as objects of beauty or if their eyes are drawn to the crotch of a dressed man to try to figure out "has he got a big hard one down there?" Both men and women have that kind of "art appreciation" for nice breast shapes, even under a sweater, and even when they are not dreaming of getting intimate with the woman (so it's "appreciation without selfish interest") The answer I got was a firm no, she felt nipples (on men) were a lot sexier, and didn't see women spying out the aesthetic shape of dicks on strangers or in movies.

[tusayan]

Like with everything, attractiveness is going to vary among indivduals. But if you sit a group of people down in a room and show them images of different body types, facial types, etc. general patterns do emerge.

I agree, though, that this is filtered through social conditioning, etc. and individual tastes. Which provides for the variability that seems to be infinite. I don't think it's an either/or subject.

[voxelectronica]

I'm not arguing with someone who is openly angry and hostile.

[voxelectronica]

Agreed on all points W/gagged_Louise. My gay male friends go for my breasts every chance they get. Stranger gay male's will do the same. One gay male has even said "I love you're breasts because they're like an ass that i can play with at a natural level for my hands". Everyone has their own reason for what they like and what they're comfortable with. Attraction is not an easy game to play.

There are countless biological reasons why one mental gender will find this that or another attractive.

For the record I don't find the male crotch to be a pleasing area at all. It's utilitarian... period. I'd rather it all be tucked away and a strap on be used. If I'm to be penetrated at all.

[gloombunny]

For me, the biggest tell about gender roles are trannies. They FEEL feminine, they feel like their body needs to match that. When i start talking about hunting and camping i start to feel more masculine, so do a lot of m2f. It's when physical members of another gender identifies with feelings and attitudes that they all believe to be of the opposite gender to the degree that they must change their physical appearance that you have to accept there is a difference.

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but it kind of sounds like you're saying that, for instance, an MTF transsexual is someone who identifies with feminine attitudes so much that they go through all the hassles necessary to get a female body? 'cuz that really isn't how it works. Transsexuality isn't about how feminine or masculine you are or want to be. Like with me - I'm transsexual (female, born with a male body that I'm in the process of female-izing), but I have a pretty strong butch streak in my womanhood. I wouldn't describe myself as very feminine, but I consider myself very much female nonetheless.

If there's one thing I've learned from years of talking to and reading the writings of and about various sorts of transgendered people, it's that things are far, far more intricate and complicated than you'd ever imagine without getting really into it. The closer you look, the more subtle-yet-significant distinctions and variations you find. There are more identities in sex and gender than are dreamt of in your philosophy... no matter what your philosophy is, as far as I can tell. Learning not to try to make sense of everything with some kind of general theory has been a difficult but valuable lesson for me.


edit: My first post in months and it's about transgender issues. I guess I'm kind of predictable.

[gagged_Louise]

I get what you mean gloombunny, but isn't this about having the choice how one wants to shape one's femaleness too? Someone who is physically born (biology) and raised (social mores and codes) a woman has, in some ways, more of a choice how to "be female" - and that's not just equal to being tender, caring, graceful and nurturing - because she has a firm foundation: no one can take away her female body and her knowledge of 'living in a women's realm' and feeling natural with it. But to others who identify strongly with some kind of female attitudes and qualities, or could see themselves being in a girl's position sexually - we both do that, though in different ways - this is not a foundation we were born with, a learning process is involved, and getting to be an in-the-flesh female may seem the ground needed to get there - and also, in order to get other people to accept this side of you on an everyday basis. Without having to explain "I'm not a freak or a cracked actor, this is me". You're absolutely right that trans behaviour and transgender reality is a very multi-faceted phenomenon.

For an analogy, middle-class kids with a secure home base, money from home and a good education opt to dress down and act like working-class outsiders/punks some of the time. It's not the working class kids you most often see showing off that kind of rebellion cool or style warfare. Many of them would shy away from dressing in a "sloppy" way for a party, a reception, a night at the theatre. Why? Because the middle class kids have the money and the security to indulge in playing colourful white trash, and then return to their elite college or PR bureau. They have the freedom to choose, even when that means choosing to deny the normal ways of the middle class - and having the freedom to say "this stuff is important to me/to us and that stuff isn't much to care about" (in a general sense, not just talking style and music here) and backing it up with being a man/woman/student/black immigrant/media personality etc is part of the freedom to express yourself, but it's not a right we are born with. Think of all the instances when person X is able to say something for which person Y would have been booed off stage and branded an idiot, because X is, more or less consciously, reckoned to have "the background" that makes it a viable or permissible thing to say.

[voxelectronica]

If there's one thing I've learned from years of talking to and reading the writings of and about various sorts of transgendered people, it's that things are far, far more intricate and complicated than you'd ever imagine without getting really into it. The closer you look, the more subtle-yet-significant distinctions and variations you find. There are more identities in sex and gender than are dreamt of in your philosophy... no matter what your philosophy is, as far as I can tell. Learning not to try to make sense of everything with some kind of general theory has been a difficult but valuable lesson for me.

But isn't that the case in biological women as well? A biological man and women can both have both masculine and feminine traits. Butch lesbians don't lop their tits off and buy a strap on.

What i am saying is that there is something that is identifiable of female. I believe in the proven fact that there is a difference in the female and the male brain. There is also a noticeable difference in the Transgendered brain which is why i support the ideology of a third gender. (more prevalent in Eastern cultures).

I'm not saying that transgendered has anything to do with stereotypical roles of femininity. If that were the case it would be almost unheard of to see lesbian transgendered which is not the case... at all. I am saying that there is a mental state of female and a mental state of male. You can be a butch girl. I'm incredibly "lady like" in my day to day comings and goings, that doesn't mean i can't shot a gun, clean a fish, swing a sword etc. I don't think that being a butch girl negates having to accept that there is a difference in gender.

[voxelectronica]

Think of all the instances when person X is able to say something for which person Y would have been booed off stage and branded an idiot, because X is, more or less consciously, reckoned to have "the background" that makes it a viable or permissible thing to say.

This reminds me of Thai LadyBoys. They were born male but because they have become female they have this odd... station. They are able to act in what society would consider a raunchy way for a female. Very in your face female, in a society that values demur hidden women. If a biological women had attempted this she would have more happened to her than just booing.

They get to us their masculine status to enjoy being a woman. (let's not believe that I'm saying that conditions for all MtF in Thailand are great).

[gloombunny]

I get what you mean gloombunny, but isn't this about having the choice how one wants to shape one's femaleness too? Someone who is physically born (biology) and raised (social mores and codes) a woman has, in some ways, more of a choice how to "be female" - and that's not just equal to being tender, caring, graceful and nurturing - because she has a firm foundation: no one can take away her female body and her knowledge of 'living in a women's realm' and feeling natural with it. But to others who identify strongly with some kind of female attitudes and qualities, or could see themselves being in a girl's position sexually - we both do that, though in different ways - this is not a foundation we were born with, a learning process is involved, and getting to be an in-the-flesh female may seem the ground needed to get there - and also, in order to get other people to accept this side of you on an everyday basis. Without having to explain "I'm not a freak or a cracked actor, this is me". You're absolutely right that trans behaviour and transgender reality is a very multi-faceted phenomenon.

Honestly? Nah. If a trans woman feels confident enough in her femaleness, and it can take a while for that to be the case, she can act just as non-feminine as any cis woman. Worst case scenario, she runs a higher risk of being "read" as male, but ultimately... to me, at least, I feel that it's worth that downside if that's what it takes to act like myself instead of trying to mold myself to some ideal I don't subscribe to.

[gloombunny]

But isn't that the case in biological women as well? A biological man and women can both have both masculine and feminine traits. Butch lesbians don't lop their tits off and buy a strap on.

Well, except some of them do. The line between butch and FTM isn't always so clear. I didn't mean to restrict anything that I said to only transsexuals - I was talking about anyone whose gender identity or expression is atypical for their anatomical birth sex, if they even have a clearly identifiable sex. (Some people don't.)

What i am saying is that there is something that is identifiable of female. I believe in the proven fact that there is a difference in the female and the male brain. There is also a noticeable difference in the Transgendered brain which is why i support the ideology of a third gender. (more prevalent in Eastern cultures).

There are differences between average male brains and average female brains, but individuals vary widely. And the studies I've heard of have indicated that transsexual women have brains similar to cis women, and same for men, not that there's a third kind of brain.

(And why stop at three? There's at least one culture that recognizes five genders. Just be careful not to push anyone into a gender they don't want - I identify strongly as a woman, not a third anything, for instance.)

I'm not saying that transgendered has anything to do with stereotypical roles of femininity. If that were the case it would be almost unheard of to see lesbian transgendered which is not the case... at all. I am saying that there is a mental state of female and a mental state of male. You can be a butch girl. I'm incredibly "lady like" in my day to day comings and goings, that doesn't mean i can't shot a gun, clean a fish, swing a sword etc. I don't think that being a butch girl negates having to accept that there is a difference in gender.

Sounds like I misunderstood you at first, then. I agree that there are definite mental states of male and female that are independent of one's physical sex. Julia Serano, who I admit to being a bit of a fangirl of, calls it "subconscious sex" - the sex of your mind at a fundamental level, which matches the physical birth sex for most people, but can cause great distress when it doesn't match. But just as there are intersexed people whose physical birth sex isn't clearly male or female, there are people who seem to have a subconscious sex that doesn't cleanly fit into male or female either.

[gagged_Louise]

I don't think there is anything strange either about a woman acting in a forthright, rough butch way - or, as Vox pointed out,a ladyboy showing that side. I never subscribed to that all women have to be lilies. But I do think there's always some fields of expectations of within what range a woman does act/should act, and the idea of what is normal/what in fact happens and what is "natural and fitting" mostly gets blurred in these issues.
So gender ideas, male and female styles is something that happens between individuals and the people around them, and their culture. It's not feasible to act like you had never heard of, or thought about, what women and men are expected to be like in the time and country where you happen to live, unless you have inherited money and can afford to live without adapting to anything. Now that doesn't mean that women or mtf trans girls always must bend to the mainstream ideas of femininity - of course not!

[voxelectronica]

Well, except some of them do.
The line between butch and FTM isn't always so clear.

In regards to butch lesbians lopping their tits off at that point they're more a straight male. (If they are lopping them off to be SEEN as male.) For me it's just a matter of what you want the rest of the world to see you as. Though this is getting a bit into semantics.

There are differences between average male brains and average female brains, but individuals vary widely. And the studies I've heard of have indicated that transsexual women have brains similar to cis women, and same for men, not that there's a third kind of brain.

absolutely! There isn't anything in the tran brain that would make it so a doctor could tell the difference and it does resemble the female brain more. It is however uniquely different as it does belong to a male body. (vise versa for MtF)

(And why stop at three? There's at least one culture that recognizes five genders. Just be careful not to push anyone into a gender they don't want - I identify strongly as a woman, not a third anything, for instance.)

Then you *are* a woman and not a third fourth of fifth anything. I personally use a point system to figure out what I am on any given day. Then i determine how I'm going to dress, act, smell. (smell is HUGE for me). I'm not pushing anyone into a gender. I am however saying that society needs it's stereotypes. Even the most "open minded" uses them to some degree. I would rather have a society that had three genders recognized over two.

Then again I would feel more comfortable going to the mens room. Hate that it's an ugly real girl (who looks more like some sort of beast) who has a problem with a beautiful T girl using the girls bathroom and wish that there was just one big bathroom.

[fantasien]

Then again I would feel more comfortable going to the mens room. Hate that it's an ugly real girl (who looks more like some sort of beast) who has a problem with a beautiful T girl using the girls bathroom and wish that there was just one big bathroom.

Hmmm. thats where i am to. why cant we just have one big group bathroom. I mean other colleges has coed locker rooms and bathrooms including showers and everything. So why do they have to be separated by gender or sex?

[hopperboo]

So why do they have to be separated by gender or sex?

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.



While I was in Paris I was extremely uncomfortable with their bathroom...whatever. We went to this one restaurant and a man came down the stairs (to the bathroom area where we were waiting) while he was unbuttoning his pants.

And the urinal he was using was not closed off. I about died.

[gloombunny]

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.

It's pretty harsh on the minority of people who can't use either bathroom without being harassed, though.

[hopperboo]

It's pretty harsh on the minority of people who can't use either bathroom without being harassed, though.

I really don't mean this to come off bitchy or offensive (seriously), but this isn't a perfect world.

Some people are going to get offended, and if some of them are purposely trying to look different, then...I dunno. If one is trying to look like a guy or a girl, then they should be prepared to be treated as such.

The second people stop treating people on based on their gender someone else is going to be offended because they aren't being treated based on their gender.

It's impossible to make everyone happy.

[PropertyOfMasterJoey]

Interesting post to say the least.

I'm of the opinion that we are all born with both male and female spirits. One is obviously more predominant than the other.

Scientifically speaking, both genders carry estrogen and testosterone in our chemical makeup. Most men produce 6-8 mg of the male hormone testosterone (an androgen) per day, compared to most women who produce 0.5 mg daily. Female hormones, estrogens, are also present in both sexes, but in larger amounts for women.

Is it possible that you have a strong male spirit and more testoserone than the average female? Or have I misinterpreted what you meant? lol

i dunno if that's how it works. my PCOS mentioned on other threads makes me produce extra testosterone but i'm as girly as all give out lol

[gloombunny]

Some people are going to get offended, and if some of them are purposely trying to look different, then...I dunno. If one is trying to look like a guy or a girl, then they should be prepared to be treated as such.

I'm not talking about people who are purposely trying to look different, and I'm certainly not talking about people who are unhappy about getting treated as the gender they're trying to look like. (Wtf?) I'm talking about people who look enough unlike either gender that they aren't welcome in either bathroom. Either because they're in the middle of a transition, or because the transitioning treatments just haven't worked very well on them, or just because the only appearance they're comfortable with is somewhat in the middle gender-wise.

[blythe spirit]

i dunno if that's how it works. my PCOS mentioned on other threads makes me produce extra testosterone but i'm as girly as all give out lol

Ahhhhhh then, your female spirit has outdone the testoserone. hehehe

[gloombunny]

Ahhhhhh then, your female spirit has outdone the testoserone. hehehe

"My femaleness is so intense that it has overpowered the trillions of lame-ass Y chromosomes that sheepishly hide inside the cells of my body. And my femininity is so relentless that it has survived over thirty years of male socialization and twenty years of testosterone poisoning. Some kinky-identified thrill-seekers may envision trans women as androgyne fuck fantasies, but that's only because they are too self-absorbed to appreciate how completely fucking female we are." - Julia Serano

One of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite writers.

[blythe spirit]

gloombunny, that is priceless.

[PropertyOfMasterJoey]

"My femaleness is so intense that it has overpowered the trillions of lame-ass Y chromosomes that sheepishly hide inside the cells of my body. And my femininity is so relentless that it has survived over thirty years of male socialization and twenty years of testosterone poisoning. Some kinky-identified thrill-seekers may envision trans women as androgyne fuck fantasies, but that's only because they are too self-absorbed to appreciate how completely fucking female we are." - Julia Serano

One of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite writers.

lol that's hilarious but yeah that's how it is with me. when Master and i do age play and i put on my pink frilly dress and pigtails a absolutely love it cuz you just can't get more girly than pink and frilly lol. i dance ballet, i love cooking and detest lawn work, my leash and collar for puppy play is pink :-)

[voxelectronica]

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.



While I was in Paris I was extremely uncomfortable with their bathroom...whatever. We went to this one restaurant and a man came down the stairs (to the bathroom area where we were waiting) while he was unbuttoning his pants.

And the urinal he was using was not closed off. I about died.

Just like you i don't mean to sound bitchy but this is because you're an uptight American.

I was raised in Europe and went back in my late teens. I'm used to bare breasts in stores selling bear. As Americans we are much happier with violence than we are with sex and it's daft. It isn't your fault it was how you were raised but it's still pointless. If i ever own my own business... unisex bathroom.

It's not just that i think that bathrooms should be integrated because of transgendered issues. I think that American's need to get over their ridiculous prudish behavior. I think this idea that so many people have about how everyone wants to see their no no bits is a leading factor in this "omg is that girl going to look at me in the bathroom?" crap.

[fantasien]

For me I pretty much don't identify in any type of way os male or female. I have always felt that everything is a social construct to sexual and gender expectations. I just observed that this was the problem of war and debate, and everything from conflict to discrimination in the workplace and in the family!

I do know though that I embrace the children of the days esspecially. I have so much love for these kids.

But for me and how I identify, I would say I am Genderqueer with a more lesbian switch orrientation. I have chosen that my body has already been pretty feminine and I'll bet my body has produced more estrogyn that other men. I really love my body, but I want to go on hormones and transition. I have always felt my other half ( breasts) were missing. I have the curvy hips that my sisters have too. So what would that say to you about my gender?

I have come to see sex and gender in a way where I independently understand gender to essentially be separate to sex and that in cases can be used in a sense of how a person identifies with their sexuality/ sex characteristics. So I don't know if this is making sense to you. Is it?

Basically, gender is fluid and I have chosen to say that I could go for any gender so long as the person is attractive to my liking. So I guess I would be more pansexual. Essentially I just want to see respect for diversity and to let people be who they are and to not automatically discriminate against people.

This is just my take.

[fantasien]

Just like you i don't mean to sound bitchy but this is because you're an uptight American.

I was raised in Europe and went back in my late teens. I'm used to bare breasts in stores selling bear. As Americans we are much happier with violence than we are with sex and it's daft. It isn't your fault it was how you were raised but it's still pointless. If i ever own my own business... unisex bathroom.

It's not just that i think that bathrooms should be integrated because of transgendered issues. I think that American's need to get over their ridiculous prudish behavior. I think this idea that so many people have about how everyone wants to see their no no bits is a leading factor in this "omg is that girl going to look at me in the bathroom?" crap.

I am right there with you dear! Join me!! And we will fight to the finish until we can accomplish bathroom intigration of the sexes.

[leo9]

For example, in the US today the majority would probably not define a real man as a male who wears lace, is well perfumed, wears make-up, a powdered wig of long hair and is well versed in romances and ballroom dancing.

In Britain a man who wears a powdered wig of long hair, a velvet robe and stockings is a High Court Judge, which just goes to show that the gender role of costume is a social construct.

I've been reading a book (The Sexual Rainbow, Olive Skene Johnson) which tries very hard to be an objective study of gender, but the snag that keeps tripping the author up is how to define "masculine" and "feminine" in human terms. You can study rats till the Grant Allocations come home, and if they mount other rats they're behaving in a "masculine" way, if they build nests they're "feminine"; but when you apply the same methods to humans you're trying to nail down smoke. Johnson admits herself that a lot of the behaviour defined as "masculine" or "feminine" in classic 1950s studies would today be just laughable.

Less than a hundred years ago, doctors seriously debated whether women could work in the professions without becoming infertile. We have come a long way from such a simplistic equation between gender role and sex, but perhaps we have to go a bit further and accept that body gender is only a small part of what makes a person what they are.

I'm physically male and happy to be so (though I admit to a sneaking envy of female orgasms.) I grew up in a household of females with a largely absent father, which according to old stereotypes should make me gay, or at least a male sub; I've tried both, but ended up primarily a het Dom. But I don't feel that kneeling at a woman's feet makes me "feminine", any more than beating her makes me "masculine".

[leo9]

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.

And in several countries in living memory, there were separate toilets for different races, and people would be shocked if they had to share one with someone of the right sex but the wrong colour.

Just a thought to ponder.