Snuff

[damyanti]

one question that leaped out at me while reading this is why would a master ask a sub to consent to snuff? i get euthanasia, but why would any person wish someone who has the rest of their life ahead of them to consent to ending it? especially as the dom, to be their master/owner has to have put effort into the whole relationship so some tender feelings have to be there?!?!?! just somethig leapt out at me. i know people all have their own views, im not trying to put down any one persons fantasies but yeh just a question to add to the multitude already on this post!

thanks
emma

Excellent question...but (unless I missed someone) only one dom commented. Interesting or telling?

One question I have for everyone;
If you knew your body and soul would be restored twenty four hours later would you do it?
You will have still experienced being tortured and killed and that memory will remain with you forever

If you could experienced being snuffed knowing that your
death would not be permanent would you do it?

Another very good question.

My answer is- no.

But then of course I wouldn't be having this dilemma (about others doing it).

You know what makes me really sad? The ending of The Story of O. And even though she's not "snuffed" by someone else in the end, in a way she's snuffed by the story line. She's so dehumanized in the end that there's really no one there. I know this is exciting to some people, just not to me.

That was my thoughts exactly on that book too!!!!

[leo9]

I had to think this one out carefully, because two previous partners have been excited by edgy games where - either by breath control or by artery pressure - I could hold them in a state where their lives were literally in my hands, and where they were close enough to passing out to feel that they might die right there. And it was a big thrill because, if this is about power exchange, then the power of life and death is universally recognised as the ultimate.

But that didn't quite fit, and I realised that it wasn't what this is about because none of us seriously imagined that I would kill them; the thrill was just that I could, that I had that power and wasn't afraid to use it. If the fantasy had been that I was going to kill them, it would have been a whole different game.

[Matin]

i personally can't find anything erotic about snuff, either erotica or pictures or porn. i include torture.

i think that if i fantasize about it i would be putting her face in the fantasy...

i cannot bear her face in any real serious pain. i guess i'm not a sadist.

that's not to say i disapprove of anyone having any kind of fantasy, hey i'm not livin in any glass house.

in practise.. i disapprove. the idea that people might be killed or genuinely mutilated for the pleasure of others is as abhorrent to me as, say, a tijuana donkey show. or the torture of women in clubs in bangkok.

like seth rogen says in the 40 yr old virgin; "you're all exited because it's, like, a chick having sex with a donkey!" pause.. "then you get there, and its a chick. having sex with a donkey." and that bleak look on his face when he tells it is how i'd look.

*shrug* i'm so full of two centses tonight...

[lucy]

You know what makes me really sad? The ending of The Story of O. And even though she's not "snuffed" by someone else in the end, in a way she's snuffed by the story line. She's so dehumanized in the end that there's really no one there. I know this is exciting to some people, just not to me.

Yup, that is one of the saddest endings i ever came across.

As for movies: Pier Paolo Pasolini's Salò o le 120 giornate di Sodoma (Salò or the 120 Days of Sodom) has it all too. From abduction to extreme torture and snuff. Not in a BDSM-setting but in a fascist one.
It's still so controversial that Zurich's police wanted to prohibit a small cinema to show it last year but then gave permission because they had "underestimated the artistic value of the movie". (Zurich is usually rather liberal with such things, which has led to it being one of the hotspots of the homosexual community in Europe)

[efwb2]

Lucy: Yes the movies where real, filmed in the Middle East some where. They are really disturbing and I never want to see any thing like that again. I just don’t have the stomach for it and it does not turn me on in any way.

Human Life is precious; I teach kids for a living in the outdoors and only have three rules, Respect you’re self, Respect everyone else and Respect the Environment.

Those rules are my rules for life. I have done security where I have had knifes pulled on me and I’ve had to leave people bloody. But that was self defence and I think there is a huge difference in defending ones self and hurting someone. I could not imagine hurting one hair on my girl’s heads in a way. I would fight to protect them first.
I live by my three rules and I have the utmost respect for my girls. That’s stops me from taking that step into the big taboo of are world.

El x

[redneck one]

Excellent question...but (unless I missed someone) only one dom commented. Interesting or telling?

I think in these forums dom is taken to mean the dominant partner in a loving, or at least mutually pleasurable relationship between consensual parties. If you love, or at least want to do no harm to the other part snuff is off the table. Even if the woman wants to be "snuff" we generally accept (in the US at least) that healthly, free people are incapiable of making that decision, and that if one does, they are somehow "unhealthy" and should not be allowed to make that decision. So I think most any normal dom plays by these rules. If such a person got turned on by fantasies of snuff, I don't think they would be very comfortable discussing it. To some much lesser degree, rape fantasy has the same stigma.

If you define dom just as someone who takes the domiant role in a sexual relationship (which might also be rape or murder,) you might get different answers. BUT, as I said before, you have a lot of news stories, documentaries, and true crime books covering people who rape and kill, but I have never heard of one who killed for sexual pleasure. So it seems to be that even guys who have no issues with raping and killing their victims, don't kill them for sexual pleasure. I'm sure it happens, but I'm guessing it is rare even among those who actually rape and kill a woman.

[gagged_Louise]

you have a lot of news stories, documentaries, and true crime books covering people who rape and kill, but I have never heard of one who killed for sexual pleasure

I think there are such people, even if the sexual turn-on would often be mingled with the jolt of power, having someone bound and begging not to be killed. It used to be called "lust murder" (lustmord in German and Swedish). The word may sound strange but the linking is a reality with certain criminals I think: they get off on the act of torturing and killing without consent, of watching their victim humiliated and knowing he/she will die. Some cannibalism cases are probably like that, I wouldn't want to say if Armin Meiwes belongs there but he might. And with some serial killers and rapists, I think the idea that killing and destroying is directly linked to sexual release, like a pyromaniac setting off fire, is hard to deny.

This is not at all the same as sadism in a BDSM sense of course, though some sex stories seem to show men (less often women) that could be labeled both as Dominants and as people possessed with a desire to kill and see their object painfully destroyed.

[gagged_Louise]

Barbie Snuff?

Have to draw some more attention to this - the link's been posted before in the wonderful Barbie thread on the photo board:
http://barbiecrimescenes.blogspot.com/ (the myspace page they started up has clearly been deleted for obscene content!)

[Misschief]

I thought - think - of myself as "normal" in relation to this website.
I have a snuff fantasy. One that ocassionally I masturbate to. It deeply excites me.

Would I ever do it? Of Course not!

I applaud Your honesty.. I know what You mean about "masturbation material" though I am turned off by snuff..

Saw a hentai cartoon (which I love) once with a snuff premise.. I was unable to masturbate for a few days after that.. It just rubbed Me wrong.. Pissed Me off, actually..

There were these 2 girls who got lost on their way to vacation, got stranded on an island where they were individually gang raped and then discarded..

Made Me the opposite of aroused..

Curious about Your fantasy, tho..

[Arria]

I forgot to point out that the idea of being killed by any old someone does nothing for me. The idea only excites me where it involves my loved partner, so perhaps it does indeed have to do more with submission in an extreme form, and not with death per se?

However, there is enough stuff on the web where snuff scenes are faked (and I am sure there is stuff circulated where it is really done - I think if you have the necessary amount of money, you can buy ANY service the human mind could come up with), some of them very convincing, and there apparently is a clientele for it.
Hubby knows some of those pages, and I think some guys (as the described Scot dom in a post further above) watch that as a sort of porn, nothing else.

In that regard, some of you might have seen the movie "Mute Witness", where a girl from Eastern Europe thinks she is participating in a regular porn movie, but it turns out she gets killed on purpose. It is apparent from her facial expressions that she had no idea where this would end.

I think something similar was shown in "8 mm", but I have not seen that one.

I have also once been shown some film material that was not for sale via the regular channels, and from the looks of it the women were middle-aged prostitutes, and the whole thing was located in what looked like the cliché Southern American secret service dungeon... There were no death scenes, but the women did not appear in any way willing or happy or aroused, there was very serious stuff done to them, and they were fixed in a way that disabled them from getting away or fight back... Mind you, I have seen stuff on Insex and the like, where extreme actions took place also, but it was always obvious the women did it voluntarily, and there were "after" scenes as well, where the ladies appeared quite relaxed to me...

I am sure stuff like this happens in real life.

I also understand why people, especially doms, who fantasize about being the active part in a snuff scene, will hesitate to admit it, for fearing to be called a potential serial killer etc., or getting a visit from the local authorities in case a woman around their area gets reported missing...

One last thing: I once spoke extensively with a guy from my city in a German chat room about that fantasy, and I was oh-so-pleased to have found someone who would not run sccreaming and call me nuts, but simply and matter-of-factly communicated with me about the risks and troubles and the details of my own particular fantasy.
However, when he asked my exact location and name, I grew a little cautious, and broke off the convo.

When I told this later to hubby, he said oh well, he knew that nick, and the guy behind it plus a few of his friends were actually looking for a woman with that sort of fantasy, and willing to fulfill it (apparently they had the means to cover it up and prevent them from having to face legal consequences).
But as no one ever met that guy in real life, and none of our regular chatters went missing, we had no way to check this out. (I was not willing to act as bait, neither would hubby have allowed that *g*).

So a word of caution to the subs on here: Please be aware who you share this particular fantasy with.
You don´t want to end up with a guy who is a little overeager in acting out your desires.

[leo9]

On the subject of subs who want to be the victim, some years ago I got into correspondence with a genteel elderly man who very badly wanted someone to wall him up in a corner of a cellar, feed him through a hole till the food stopped being taken, then brick up the hole and forget about it. (His alternative dream was to be locked into a body bag and tube fed till he drowned in his accumulating excreta, then the bag sealed up and buried.) I talked to him a lot on the phone - he was as talkative as anyone who rarely gets a chance to share his deepest need - and I had no doubt that his desire was real and urgent: he said more than once, as if it made perfect sense, "It's what I deserve."

There was absolutely no way I was going to tell him that what he needed was major therapy, but likewise there was no way I was going to do it. As it happened, for quite separate reasons I was at that time very much under the eye of the Law, and all it would have needed to make my troubles complete would be a body in my cellar; but I wouldn't have done it even if I had been certain I could get away with it.

I've noted before that I'm cool with the idea of giving an extreme masochist a good (i.e. exquisitely painful) death, but only if hir life is at an end anyway. Like most euthanasia advocates, while I can accept helping someone who's dying anyhow and doesn't want it to be needlessly hard, I don't consider just being sick of oneself a good enough reason to die; certainly not good enough to warrant my help.

But I was really sorry for him, and if I could have put him in touch with someone who would realise his dream, I would have been happy to.

[redneck one]

Barbie Snuff?

Have to draw some more attention to this - the link's been posted before in the wonderful Barbie thread on the photo board:
-snip- (the myspace page they started up has clearly been deleted for obscene content!)

If you liked that you ought to watch the unrated version of the movie "Team America" which includes a sex scene between marionette dolls that degenerates into water sports and finally a brown shower. I just wonder if some hollywood model maker went home one day and had to tell his wife he spent the whole day building a "Shitting Barbie" doll.

[thir]

Not heard much about this in the BDSM scene, and then only as stories rather than real life. Mostly only heard about it in horror videos.

An interesting and demanding topic..
I too have the impression that it is not a very big thing in real life more a sort of myth -?

Murder is one thing, as in non-consensual killing, but I do assume that it is the other thing we are talking about here?

Of course one reason you may not have heard about it is the fact that it is horribly and totally illegal. IMO it also breaks all three elements of safe, sane and consensual (even if the person consents to being killed I am not sure should be possible to consent to your own death, it certainly isn't legally and morally it is a nasty area of personal freedom to explore).

This I see is the core of the matter. I see the view here (with you and other people) that if you consent to your own death you are out of your mind and should not be allowed.

I have another view: Any person owns themselves. If you cannot own yourself, then there is not real freedom and that, to me, is the single most important thing in life.

The consequence of that is that you also can - for whatever reason - decide what to do with yourself, including dying as in suicide or agreeing to or asking someone to kill you.

Why anyone would want to is beyond me, but that is another matter. I see it only from the point of view of the person who decides on death him/herself.

[thir]

So here's the thing - I don't need to make a case-by-case analysis of the sanity of someone who's willing to consent to snuff. I just don't. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that anyone who "consents" to snuff is simply incapable of giving meaningful consent.

I think "consensual snuff" is simply an oxymoron.
.

Why, exactly?

Many people would say that consenting to be a sub or a slave would clearly show that you are not in your right mind. But we here know that it is usually an informed decision from people who know what they are doing, and who consider themselves free enough to give themselves away if they so choose.

So where does this ability to decide you own fate stop? With you apparently at death, and I also feel that the idea of killing people is extremely abhorrent.
But to me that is beside the point. The point, to me, is that a person has a right to decide their own fate. That includes suicide - who can know for another person when life is too much, or sickness or pain is too much? We live inside our own sculls, and that, to me, means that only the person themselves can decide for themselves, but also that only the persons themselves have a right to.

To me, life is only worth living in freedom, and for other people to try to take control of my life in any way what so ever is wrong, and why to them it may be a matter of compassion, to me it is a matter of the ultimate disrespect for another person.

[thir]

At a base level, death is sexy.

Why? I have never understood why some people feel like this. What is sexy about it?

[fetishdj]

Me neither... I don't feel that way but I know many who do. I think it comes from the extremes involved, the finality of it. Many Vampire myths (including the original Bram Stoker) are based on the relationship between love (and by extension sex) and death, there is evidence in the language (le petit mort or the little death being a term used to describe an orgasm) and there seems to be whole subcultures that are in love with the idea of death and therefore find the idea of dying romantic/sexy/hot.

I think the concept of snuff is somewhere at the extreme ends of those subcultures, most of whom (like those who admitted as much here) would think about it and get hot at the fantasy but would never do it. They are related to each other in the same way as the blokes who nail their genitals to boards or other more extreme ends of BDSM are related to the majority of us. There is always a gradiated scale in involvement in any scene and BDSM is the perfect example. There are many in the world who consider themselves vanilla (if they knew the term) who enjoy a little light bondage and spanking and who wouldn't do most of the more extreme stuff. There are those who, like me, enjoy some of the more extreme stuff but know that there are many things I will not do (branding, piercings) and so it goes.

Now the difficult thing to establish is how many of these more extreme 'death lovers' are there really? Do any exist at all or are they just bluster and rumour? Someone who was really into this sort of thing is unlikely to admit it due to the legality involved and any who do are more than likely not telling the truth. Its like Umberto Eco's comment on Rosicrucians (read Foccault's pendulum, its a better version of the Da Vinci code) - anyone who claimed to be a Rosicrucian was probably not one because they were a secret order and no one in a secret order would be stupid enough to admit it...

[lucy]

This I see is the core of the matter. I see the view here (with you and other people) that if you consent to your own death you are out of your mind and should not be allowed.

I have another view: Any person owns themselves. If you cannot own yourself, then there is not real freedom and that, to me, is the single most important thing in life.

The consequence of that is that you also can - for whatever reason - decide what to do with yourself, including dying as in suicide or agreeing to or asking someone to kill you.

I second all that. However, suiciding or asking someone to kill you might very likely collide with other's peoples interests and freedom. Be it only because someone has to clean the mess and/or live with what you left. And that can be taken literally: When i was 11, a neighbour (20 years old and a mate of my brother) shot himself in the basement. It was messy; brains and blood everywhere. My brother found him, and to this day he has problems going to a basement. I never went to that basement anymore until we finally moved. Not because i was scared of what happened, but because i was afraid i might find another dead person.
I know it's probably the last thing a suicidal person thinks about, but it would only be fair to think of the persons who will find you.

The same with asking someone to kill you, even when you're about to die anyway. That can put immense pressure on the person who's asked to "do the job". I don't think a lot of persons could either comply or not comply with that wish without having a huge problem with it.

[thir]

I second all that. However, suiciding or asking someone to kill you might very likely collide with other's peoples interests and freedom. Be it only because someone has to clean the mess and/or live with what you left.

Point. It would be good to do it in a way as to not upset people who will find you. That may be difficult, though!

The same with asking someone to kill you, even when you're about to die anyway. That can put immense pressure on the person who's asked to "do the job". I don't think a lot of persons could either comply or not comply with that wish without having a huge problem with it.

These persons would likewise have their freedom to say 'no' to that.

[Arria]

@ lucy: Funny that you mention it. "Which poor person will clean the mess up" was exactly my point of worry.

I guess if anybody acts this out, he should also take care of the leftovers, and spare others the view and the mess.

[leo9]

So here's the thing - I don't need to make a case-by-case analysis of the sanity of someone who's willing to consent to snuff. I just don't. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that anyone who "consents" to snuff is simply incapable of giving meaningful consent.

The trouble is, this is exactly the argument we run up against in debates on suicide: any competent adult should be free to decide what they want to do with their life, but if they want to die, that proves they are incompetent to make decisions.

And as Thir pointed out, we've seen the same argument applied by people who are scared of BDSM: anyone who consents to being tied up and whipped is obviously not competent to give consent.

But I can see the difference. The fundamental problem about death, and the reason many people are against capital punishment, is that it doesn't allow of corrections or second thoughts. If you go into a heavy scene and realise it wasn't what you wanted, even if what goes wrong is that you're under a Top who won't respect your safeword, at worst the mistake can be fixed with some hospital time and trauma therapy. If you consent to be killed for the wrong reason nothing can put it right.

[leah06]

This I see is the core of the matter. I see the view here (with you and other people) that if you consent to your own death you are out of your mind and should not be allowed.

I have another view: Any person owns themselves. If you cannot own yourself, then there is not real freedom and that, to me, is the single most important thing in life.

Thir, I always enjoy reading your posts because sometimes your intuitions are very different from mine and they are thought-provoking. I happen to agree with you that, in general, people own themselves and that they should be able to treat their property as they wish. However, I think that our intuitions place some bounds on that, as does our legal system. People who are insane are not able to, for example, enter contracts, dispose of their property, or make decisions regarding their care. Other people who are under a legal disability are treated similarly. Children, for example, generally can't engage in the activities I listed.

It seems to me that either you think it is a good idea to protect some people from themselves, or you don't. If you really don't believe that, then I would like you to justify prohibiting pedophilia. After all, lots of that special touching can feel really good, so why not let a child consent to it? But once you agree that SOME people are simply "disabled" - by age, or some kind of illness, or a psychological condition - from being able to make certain decisions for themselves, including the right to make decisions regarding their physical property, their bodies, then the questions is, who falls into that category?

I'm very comfortable saying, kids do. I don't need to interview each one to see where they fall on some decision-making spectrum; they just don't get to consent to sex. Or to lots of other things involving their bodies or their property. And insane people. Once you know that someone is insane, then they just can't make those decisions. So who's insane? Again, I'm confortable making the blanket judgment that physically-healthy people who want to "consent" to stuff are just nuts and can't consent to anything. You might disagree, and want to make a case-by-case determination; but unless you really believe that ANYONE, no matter what their condition, owns and can dispose of themselves in any way they like, I think you will need to agree that at least some people just aren't in a position to agreed to be snuffed.

[Arria]

But that didn't quite fit, and I realised that it wasn't what this is about because none of us seriously imagined that I would kill them; the thrill was just that I could, that I had that power and wasn't afraid to use it.

That describes the thrill I feel during breathplay very well.
If I didn´t trust my play partner to stop before it got really dangerous, I would not consider breathplay with him...

As I said elsewhere, I don´t know how far I would go if I had no family; but with things being as they are, realizing a snuff fantasy is just out of the question.

[leo9]

Thir, I always enjoy reading your posts because sometimes your intuitions are very different from mine and they are thought-provoking. I happen to agree with you that, in general, people own themselves and that they should be able to treat their property as they wish. However, I think that our intuitions place some bounds on that, as does our legal system. People who are insane are not able to, for example, enter contracts, dispose of their property, or make decisions regarding their care. Other people who are under a legal disability are treated similarly. Children, for example, generally can't engage in the activities I listed.

It seems to me that either you think it is a good idea to protect some people from themselves, or you don't. If you really don't believe that, then I would like you to justify prohibiting pedophilia. After all, lots of that special touching can feel really good, so why not let a child consent to it? But once you agree that SOME people are simply "disabled" - by age, or some kind of illness, or a psychological condition - from being able to make certain decisions for themselves, including the right to make decisions regarding their physical property, their bodies, then the questions is, who falls into that category?

I'm very comfortable saying, kids do. I don't need to interview each one to see where they fall on some decision-making spectrum; they just don't get to consent to sex. Or to lots of other things involving their bodies or their property. And insane people. Once you know that someone is insane, then they just can't make those decisions. So who's insane? Again, I'm confortable making the blanket judgment that physically-healthy people who want to "consent" to stuff are just nuts and can't consent to anything. You might disagree, and want to make a case-by-case determination; but unless you really believe that ANYONE, no matter what their condition, owns and can dispose of themselves in any way they like, I think you will need to agree that at least some people just aren't in a position to agreed to be snuffed.

I really hope this wasn't meant to be as grossly insulting as it sounds. Your lengthy defence of the age of consent appears to imply that thir needs to be convinced that children should be protected - and it's probably just as well that she's away from the list for a few days, because she will be both horrified and spitting fire when she sees it. Did you really mean to imply that?

I'm used to guilt-by-association from the worst end of the Religious Right: if you support gay marriage you must be in favour of underage marriage, if you support abortion you must approve of infanticide. But this is the first time I was ever told that if I support the right to suicide I must approve of child abuse.

I ask again, did you really mean to say that? Because I hate to find I've torn into someone for something they didn't mean, so I want to be quite sure first.

[thir]

It seems to me that either you think it is a good idea to protect some people from themselves, or you don't.
snip
But once you agree that SOME people are simply "disabled" - by age, or some kind of illness, or a psychological condition - from being able to make certain decisions for themselves, including the right to make decisions regarding their physical property, their bodies, then the questions is, who falls into that category?

Who indeed?

OK, we were discussing adults and the option of doing with your body what you want - or, a clarification, I was.

I have another question: who are qualified to determine if other people should be put under guardianship?

And insane people. Once you know that someone is insane, then they just can't make those decisions. So who's insane? Again, I'm confortable making the blanket judgment that physically-healthy people who want to "consent" to stuff are just nuts and can't consent to anything.

I guess the long and short of it is that I am not. Not at all. I tend to regard the powerposition of the whole set of mind doctors with scepsis, since morality, religion and other people's ideas have more to say than actual research, often enough. Consider how many of this profession are willing to call us crazy because of what we are and want.

You might disagree, and want to make a case-by-case determination; but unless you really believe that ANYONE, no matter what their condition, owns and can dispose of themselves in any way they like, I think you will need to agree that at least some people just aren't in a position to agreed to be snuffed.

THere will always be some, but the question is who is to determine who they are?
IMO taking people's choices away from them, which is what we are discussing here, put on its edge, is a darn serious thing. And to me it takes a good deal of justificantion, rather than arguing why people should be able to think and act for themselves.

[thir]

I really hope this wasn't meant to be as grossly insulting as it sounds. Your lengthy defence of the age of consent appears to imply that thir needs to be convinced that children should be protected - and it's probably just as well that she's away from the list for a few days, because she will be both horrified and spitting fire when she sees it. Did you really mean to imply that?

I am not spitting fire dear Lord, because I am fairly sure that that was not the implication.
I

I'm used to guilt-by-association from the worst end of the Religious Right: if you support gay marriage you must be in favour of underage marriage, if you support abortion you must approve of infanticide. But this is the first time I was ever told that if I support the right to suicide I must approve of child abuse.

It can be read like that, and I too abhor that way of arguing. I do not think it was meant that way, but I do agree with you that one should probably be aware of taking a discussion in totally different areas from what was under debate, or at least be very clear about it.

But again, I do not think that that mail was meant that way at all.

[Carpe Coma]

What are your views on this topic? How do you see snuff?

If this is a fetish of yours...what is it that you find erotic or sexually gratifying (because I honestly don't see it)? Is it a way to romanticize death?

I don't think it is a way to romanticize death for most. At least one other person in this thread has said that they saw it as the ultimate submission. I don't agree with that either, as I do think that there are fates worse than death. Instead, I see it as the ultimate objectification, the ultimate devaluation. The stripping away of what we generally consider the most basic human right.

Are there people turned on by it on both sides of the act? Absolutely. I have chatted with a few on the "snuff me" side. Their reasons varied, but they mostly centered around the idea of becoming nothing combined with the curious lack of a sense of self preservation.

Can someone consent to being "snuffed"? I can think of a few conditions where that could be the case and the person wouldn't automatically be considered insane, though they pretty much all revolve around the "snuffee" being terminally ill in some manner. The idea of consenting to death delves into some very murky ethical waters. At what point does someone need to be protected from themselves? You can't properly address this without having a bulletproof definition of insanity, which we currently lack. Instead we have the catch-all of when they seek harm upon themselves. Though by that definition, any masochist could be considered insane.

Is snuff just another word for suicide?

No. Suicide is either to escape, to gain control, or a case of temporary chemical imbalance. People that seek suicide by proxy (which is what snuff would be if it was another word for suicide) generally aren't that particular about how it happens. Just like people with rape fantasies, people with snuff fantasies tend to care about with whom and how it happens. People just seeking to die usually want it to happen relatively quickly and painlessly, while snuff fantasies tend to be prolonged affairs. Snuff fantasies almost always have what they feel to be a very strong sexual component, while suicide by proxy is just about getting someone else to do what they themselves cannot.

[leo9]

At least one other person in this thread has said that they saw it as the ultimate submission. I don't agree with that either, as I do think that there are fates worse than death. Instead, I see it as the ultimate objectification, the ultimate devaluation. The stripping away of what we generally consider the most basic human right.

Are there people turned on by it on both sides of the act? Absolutely. I have chatted with a few on the "snuff me" side. Their reasons varied, but they mostly centered around the idea of becoming nothing combined with the curious lack of a sense of self preservation.

That's an interesting insight. I recall a story that appeared in the Library last year, in which a slave was elaborately bound, mummified (including provision for tube feeding and evacuation as well as the usual self-propelled dildoes) and finally coffined and buried, with gravestone and all. The fact that she would supposedly be kept alive but absolutely helpless in her coffin for some unspecified but long time was presented as part of the thrill - rather like a snuff fan's version of the old joke about wanting to enjoy your own funeral.

I suppose that explains why some people combine it with cannibal fantasies. Using someone as meat is another way of taking objectification to the limit.