Abusive Submissives

[jeanne]

In another thread, Pearlgem wrote something that I found incredibly intelligent - something that I intuitively knew, but didn't know...if you know what I mean.

I think subs can abuse Doms by not telling them the truth about themselves.

IMO, this is so very, very true. Keeping vital information to ourselves, and then placing ourselves in a situation that could cause some unexpected consequences, is an awful thing to do. I would think a perfect example would be a submissive who had been a victim of rape. Not telling her Dom about the rape and then consenting to a 'rape scene' is a selfish, abusive act. Anything could happen when the re-enactment occurs, and putting that depth of responsibility on another human being - without their consent - is abusive.

[Dea Menrfa]

Yes, but as we well know, Doms can also abuse subs by not telling the truth.

[jeanne]

Yes, but as we well know, Doms can also abuse subs by not telling the truth.

That is absolutely true.

[tessa]

Yes, but as we well know, Doms can also abuse subs by not telling the truth.

That's a much more widely recognized train of thought- the "big bad" taking advantage of and abusing the "poor little". We've got loads of stuff on that topic. jeanne brings this alternate view up as a way of highlighting the not-so-discussed idea of the truth to be found in the idea of the "poor little" abusing the "big bad". Maybe not in the "traditional" sense of the defining, but abuse just as damaging nonetheless.

It's intimated too many times that a Dominant should be able to "handle" a submissive, no matter what the submissive throws their Dom-ly way. Not only should Doms be able to do such handling, but they should be able to accomplish it without being presented a clear picture of what's coming their way. So unfair. As unrealistic as it is to expect god-like-ness from mere mortals (yes, Doms are mere mortals), Dominants are sometimes held to such impossibly lofty standards. Too many submissives, with all the hidden flaws and damages therein, and despite the unrevealing of the not-so-pretty, demand perfect omniscience from their Dominants. Yet those same submissives don't hold themselves to the same standards. Why is that?

No one likes to be labeled with a negative, much less with a negative like 'abusive'. While it may seem that the telling of a lie or omitting information...just that one time...doesn't classify as abusive behavior and isn't so big a deal, the potential is there for it to indeed become a big deal. And if the negative potential is there, the threat of abuse is very real.

Even if it is just one time, to knowingly give false and/or misleading information is an abuse of power (yes, submissives indeed have power). And from that one time, when the damage occurs- as it most certainly will to all involved- said submissives will be first to nail the Dominant to the wall and accuse them of "not taking care of me".

Yes, that's abusive.


Now, to go off on a tangent presented within this topic...

I'm not attacking this post, just commenting based on what experience tells me.

that's like saying that a parent that hit their kid one time in a heated situation, despite being a totally good and devoted parent the rest of the time, was physically "abusive".

Stating this is akin to saying, "well, he's a really good guy...he only committed that one rape", or "she's always been a class act...just that one armed robbery".

If one doesn't want to be labeled a rapist, then one shouldn't sexually assault an unconsenting person. If one doesn't want the label "armed burglar", then don't take property while pointing a gun at someone. And if someone doesn't want to be called an abusive parent, then one should control one's damned self in those heated moments when one's own child is involved.

Whether it's wanted or not, the behavior demonstrated in that one time earns the appropriate label.

Okay, it was one time, but in that one time, damage has been done, damage one can't undo. Discounting the damage incurred in that one time is a lame attempt to assuage the guilt of the offending party. While every soul will deal with the damage in differing ways and to differing degrees, the effects will last a lifetime.

Whether the one time occurs between strangers or family members, the criminal aspect is still there. The law should look at the purposeful striking of one's own child in a heated moment in the same light as it does the purposeful striking of a complete stranger in a heated moment. Being a parent in the situation shouldn't give one the liberty to act in such a threatening and cruel way. And it shouldn't count for less because it's a child who's been harmed. If anything, it should be counted for much more.

[Veralynne]

I would think that any lie or omission to a partner under that broad definition would make that partner "abusive". Maybe I am more lax than that, but I think it takes more than that for someone to be abusive. If a sub repeatedly and selfishly made such omissions, then I would say okay, sure. To me... it just seems a harsh characterization for a minor thing. To me that's like saying that a parent that hit their kid one time in a heated situation, despite being a totally good and devoted parent the rest of the time, was physically "abusive".

[thir]

I would think that any lie or omission to a partner under that broad definition would make that partner "abusive". Maybe I am more lax than that, but I think it takes more than that for someone to be abusive.

It did actually not say 'any' lie or omission but 'vital' information, which I must agree with. I know an instance of a sub who did not impart the info of having heart trouble, to take an example.

That that is not just being irresponsible with your own health, but totally not ok for the dom who may stand there with a problem they do not recognize and a potentially fatal outcome.

[DowntownAmber]

Denying a partner information when one knows that the information in question is vital to the health and longevity of both the relationship and the partner overall is a nasty thing to do in both a D/s relationship or a vanilla coupling.

There's no way, of course, for partners to ever really know each other completely, but if you're hiding things on purpose? Most likely an issue, don'tcha' think? .

[Flaming_Redhead]

Keeping vital information to ourselves, and then placing ourselves in a situation that could cause some unexpected consequences, is an awful thing to do.

That's life. Ain't it grand? Things like that aren't always done on purpose, and even if you do give some information, it doesn't mean people listen. For instance, at a birthday dinner with friends, the subject of paddles came up. I know I distinctly said that I didn't like them....several times. It was not the time or place to go into why. Unbeknownst to me, one was commissioned by Voodoo from my friend's husband. We went to their house one evening. We had some drinks. The subject came up again. I again said I didn't care for them. I then discovered that there was one "with my name on it" so to speak. I freaked!

I never got to see that paddle...or my friend's paddle....or my friend's red ass. There was no play that night. What did I do that was so awful? Not go into gory detail about childhood abuse at the dinner table in the middle of Ruby Tuesday on my birthday? Not know that my warnings about my dislike of paddles would be ignored? Not be grateful that Voodoo had tried to surprise me?

I wasn't able to watch, even though I consented. They would not consent to let me see if I could handle just watching. As many times as I've been to the dungeon, I've never seen a paddling. I guess I've just been lucky. I've always warned potential play partners that I seem to have a phobia, so I have yet to try it myself. I won't inflict my hysterics on a casual acquaintance. I won't try paddles with "strangers" without telling, not because I don't think it's abusive (because I don't think it is) but because of pride. I like to be confident that I can handle what's being dished out. I don't give people my background before we play. They don't need to know. All they need to know is that I don't like paddles, and they better not hit my pussy. If they ever choose to ignore that, they're responsible for the consequences.

[BryansGrrrl]

Great thread and good point. I think manipulation by a Sub is a much subtler thing than manipulation by a Dom. So subtle that it can go unrecognized for quite a while. Withholding information, withholding affection, attention, etc. can be emotionally abusive on BOTH sides of the equation. But, then... we all have different opinions on what constitutes abuse.

[Ozme52]

Great thread and good point. I think manipulation by a Sub is a much subtler thing than manipulation by a Dom. So subtle that it can go unrecognized for quite a while. Withholding information, withholding affection, attention, etc. can be emotionally abusive on BOTH sides of the equation. But, then... we all have different opinions on what constitutes abuse.

That's funny and made me laugh out loud... because I don't know of a single case where a Dom/me subtly manipulates their submissive. We are quite direct and obvious about how we manipulate submissives.

In fact, I often announce "Of course you realize I'm manipulating you when I said that... and furthermore, I'm manipulating you by telling you that I'm manipulatiing you."

Followed by the inevitable question... "So did that make you wet?"

[BryansGrrrl]

That's funny and made me laugh out loud...

LOL, yes it was funny when looked @ that way. But I meant the more insidious, nasty "But you'd do this if you love me..." Or "I am now mad at you because you didn't do this, even if you DID say it was a hard limit..." type stuff. It hasn't happened to me, thankfully, but I'm sure that kind of thing occurs as often for BDSM as it does in vanilla life.

Silliness Digression: I just used "insidious" in a sentence. Go me!

[sidhewolf]

That's funny and made me laugh out loud... because I don't know of a single case where a Dom/me subtly manipulates their submissive. We are quite direct and obvious about how we manipulate submissives.

In fact, I often announce "Of course you realize I'm manipulating you when I said that... and furthermore, I'm manipulating you by telling you that I'm manipulatiing you."

Followed by the inevitable question... "So did that make you wet?"

<Laughs>

[StormKat]

Keeping vital information to ourselves, and then placing ourselves in a situation that could cause some unexpected consequences, is an awful thing to do.

I think the key word is unexpected - many people never know how they'll react to a given situation until they find themselves in it. I also think it depends on the type of information being shared & the comfort level with the person it's being shared with. Medical information, at least at a basic level, would likely be necessary to share - you can't blame someone for hanging you from the ceiling if you never told him about your broken wrist...

But the type of information to be shared & especially its depth depend on the person it's being given to & how well you know & trust that individual. As an example, most of my friends know I hate, almost to the point of phobia, pointed toe cowboy boots. While I may take some shit for having such a seemingly silly dislike, they don't feel a need to push me about it or deliberately wear them to bother me. But of that whole group, only 2 people know the reason behind my hatred stems from an incident when I was 12, taking on a drunk man a foot taller & a hundred pounds heavier, keeping him from dragging my cute blond 12yo friend up to his hotel roorm, buying time for her to run away. Those damned boots do a number on your ribs once you're down on the ground...

My point is that not everyone needs to know the underlying reasons behind my hatred, just accept & respect that it is something I don't like. And if I like & trust the person enough, I'll tell them the full story.

[his_girl_l]

This is a lovely ideal - complete openess, honesty, joining as one.....

But while i would never advocate lying to your partner, the reality is that every day we present ourselves differently to different people. We don't lie, they are all aspects of us, we just show different sides in different situations.

i guess it could be viewed as manipulative, but it's how society functions.

The problem only arises if one is deliberately untruthful or neglects to mention something that they know their partner would want to know.

And as time goes on, your partner will see all the "yous", the one you present to your mother, your friends, your co workers, your kids, and get a truly rounded view of you.

But in my opinion it's only natural to present yourself at your best when embarking on a relationship, and there are appropriate times for certain revelations, not neccessarily the first date.

[tessa]

The problem only arises if one is deliberately untruthful or neglects to mention something that they know their partner would want to know.

This is exactly what this is all about. Deliberate acts of omission and untruthfulness.

But in my opinion it's only natural to present yourself at your best when embarking on a relationship, and there are appropriate times for certain revelations, not neccessarily the first date.

The embarking between a Dominant and a submissive is a much different one than what would be had on a vanilla first date. And while revealing all does indeed happen over time in every relationship, if the D/s dynamic is sought from each other, revealing happens sooner and much more openly. Or should. Otherwise, damage can certainly happens.

This is a lovely ideal - complete openess, honesty, joining as one.....

More than just an ideal. Much, much more.

[jeanne]

I think perhaps I wasn't clear enough in the original post. I'm not talking about those little lies we all tell, little things we hide that become obvious over time...

I'm talking about the big ones. The ones that must be revealed so our Dominants know what the heck is going on with us inside. So they can make informed decisions about how to play with us, train us, treat us. The original example still stands. And I still believe it's abusive on the submissives part.

[sidhewolf]

I think perhaps I wasn't clear enough in the original post. I'm not talking about those little lies we all tell, little things we hide that become obvious over time...

I'm talking about the big ones. The ones that must be revealed so our Dominants know what the heck is going on with us inside. So they can make informed decisions about how to play with us, train us, treat us. The original example still stands. And I still believe it's abusive on the submissives part.

I Sooo Agree Jeanne! I've seen and heard about the (as one here put it) "the poor little abusing the Big Bad" waaaaaaaay too many times. Seemingly targeting or Blaming the Dominant, who was not given the Correct information to begin with. And it does come in many forms, not just dishonesty, or lies per se'. It comes in the form of manipulation, Topping from the bottom, not Listening/ignoring, not Communicating Openly and Honestly, setting the Dominant up to fall and/or fail. And Thir's response is a great example of the extreme's this can go to.

I've seen many times a Relationship between Dominant and Submissive fail because of the so called Submissive's actions. Submissive's who set themselves and their Dominant's up, and then cry Abuse of the Dominant as the reason. There are at least as many Poor "Big Bad's" as there are "Poor Little's" out there. And I think it's Wisdom to Realize the Truth of this.

Respectfully~SidheWolf

[DIXIE LASS]

Keeping vital information to ourselves, and then placing ourselves in a situation that could cause some unexpected consequences, is an awful thing to do. I would think a perfect example would be a submissive who had been a victim of rape. Not telling her Dom about the rape and then consenting to a 'rape scene' is a selfish, abusive act. Anything could happen when the re-enactment occurs, and putting that depth of responsibility on another human being - without their consent - is abusive.

I think the behavior of the rape victim in this particular situation is so self-abusive it makes the abuse of the Dom a secondary issue.

But I don't see any of this as being problematic only to a bdsm lifestyle. Human beings, using distortions, deceptions, subterfuge, subtlety, beguilement, along with a whole bag of other tricks, have been abusive to close relations since time began. Parent against child, Brother against sister, Husband against wife.......the list goes on.....it is not isolated to only Dom and sub.

However Jeanne, you may not have meant this quite the way I am interpreting it......or your point may not be the one I took.

DIXIE

[ash_DREAMING]

I agree with Dixie; lying and deception is damaging to anyone and everyone. Though in the case of a sub lying to their Dom/me, I believe it's far more self-abusive than abusive to the Dom/me, or perhaps more abusive to the actual relationship.

The way I see it, when you lie to your partner about yourself, your thoughts, or your beliefs, you are creating a false image of yourself in their mind. In a bdsm relationship, not knowing the true version of your partner can be very dangerous, especially if the Dom/me doesn't truly know their sub. Maybe this is reading into it a little too far, but thats how I see it.

[leah06]

The way I see it, when you lie to your partner about yourself, your thoughts, or your beliefs, you are creating a false image of yourself in their mind. In a bdsm relationship, not knowing the true version of your partner can be very dangerous, especially if the Dom/me doesn't truly know their sub. Maybe this is reading into it a little too far, but thats how I see it.

What about the sub truly knowing the Dom/me? I see a lot about the necessity of full disclosure on the part of the sub, but it seems that Dom/mes are allowed, or even expected, to keep themselves to themselves. Not to lie, of course, except possibly by omission, but there's certainly less expectation of telling every little thing.

In part, I understand this. Knowledge is power, and in an unequal power relationship, there could be unequal knowledge of each other. But still, this sometimes seems to go too far, IMHO.

[jeanne]

Obviously there's all sorts of abuse - I simply focused on this particular type because it seems to never be mentioned. Here's another example of what I mean:

Suppose a submissive lost family members in a fire and has had a fear of fire ever since. When her Dom suggests fireplay, she agrees, never disclosing her experience. Then when the fireplay commences, she freaks out, starts screaming at her Dom and has a complete meltdown.

He never saw it coming and feels responsible. But in truth, she knew she had a problem with fire, and by not telling him so, she set up a possibly bad situation for them both. If she had told him "hey, this happened in my life - I'd like to try fireplay but you need to know that I may have a problem with it" then he could have been prepared for the consequences.

I think that we forget, as submissives, where our own responsibility lies to take care of ourselves and our Doms. They are not super-human. They are doing something, expressing a part of themselves, that modern society can and will condemn them for. Knowingly putting them in a situation that they will feel responsible for creating - when it is not their cross to bear - is abuse.

And yes, the self-abuse argument is true. But irrelevant to this discussion, IMO.

[Ozme52]

Specific to the topic, I have to agree with jeanne.

Here's another example. Even more basic. You are in the midst of a scene you've done many times before. Unknown to you, since the last time, your sub has had a traumatic event occur in her life, and she just can get into that state of mind that allows her to submit. Suddenly she is only aware of the pain and/or humiliation and is experiencing none of the pleasure. Whether she safewwords or not, all you as the dominant know is that something is going wrong... yet if you've been kept abreast of events in the sub's life, you can deal with the changing environment.

If not, it can be a lever that tears the two apart. It is a situation that I, as a dominant, feel incumbent to share with my sub when it happens to me. If I'm not being my typical vibrant self, how would s/he know she hadn't done something wrong.

And again... we come around to communications. It's key to so many many facets of a successful relationship of any kind.