True Control

[Ozme52]

I guess I just have to put in a dissenting opinion.

The submissive cedes power and control to the dominant, (and the dominant takes it,) because it is mutually beneficial to do so.

Just because the sub can take it back, in no way changes the fact that for that period of time, the dominant is the wielder of the power.

My control is not an illusion. If you insist that it is, then the submission that goes with it is even more illusory. In which case, there is no gift at all because it has no value.

[JimmyJump]

I guess I just have to put in a dissenting opinion.

The submissive cedes power and control to the dominant, (and the dominant takes it,) because it is mutually beneficial to do so.

Just because the sub can take it back, in no way changes the fact that for that period of time, the dominant is the wielder of the power.

My control is not an illusion. If you insist that it is, then the submission that goes with it is even more illusory. In which case, there is no gift at all because it has no value.

Absolutely, Oz. But it's a symbiosys. Ying and Yang. There has to be a balance and that balance is provided by, on the one hand the dominant, and on the other the submissive.

When there's dominance without voluntary submission (unless the submissive wants to be forced, but then again there's consent), you have tyranny.

Should the submissive take away it's will to submit, there's no more dominance, because there's no-one left to dominate.


JJ

[jeanne]

Should the submissive take away it's will to submit, there's no more dominance, because there's no-one left to dominate.

This is true, but once I've made the choice to submit, my will becomes His. In other words, I 'align' my will to His will and in that moment my power becomes His to control. My control of the situation is ceded to Him - in effect I surrender.

If I believed that I held the 'upper hand' in submission, that I was the final say-so about what we do together, I wouldn't be submitting, imo. I'd be bottoming. That isn't who I am in my relationship with Him.

That being said - this level of trust and faith in a Dominant takes time to develop. It isn't something that can be commanded in an instant. My Owner and I have been together for a year and a half, and our mutual trust grows each day. Where we'll be in another year - who knows? I expect the depth of my surrender to Him will continue to grow, His power over me will continue to grow...and I'm enjoying every step along the way.

[DJade]

This is true, but once I've made the choice to submit, my will becomes His. In other words, I 'align' my will to His will and in that moment my power becomes His to control. My control of the situation is ceded to Him - in effect I surrender.

If I believed that I held the 'upper hand' in submission, that I was the final say-so about what we do together, I wouldn't be submitting, imo. I'd be bottoming. That isn't who I am in my relationship with Him.

That being said - this level of trust and faith in a Dominant takes time to develop. It isn't something that can be commanded in an instant. My Owner and I have been together for a year and a half, and our mutual trust grows each day. Where we'll be in another year - who knows? I expect the depth of my surrender to Him will continue to grow, His power over me will continue to grow...and I'm enjoying every step along the way.

Well said

[Ozme52]

Absolutely, Oz. But it's a symbiosys. Ying and Yang. There has to be a balance and that balance is provided by, on the one hand the dominant, and on the other the submissive.

I never said otherwise. In fact, that's my point. It's not "just" the submissive who gives a gift, not "just" the submissive who says yes or no.

When there's dominance without voluntary submission (unless the submissive wants to be forced, but then again there's consent), you have tyranny.

Again, nothing I said would imply dominance without consent was my position.

Should the submissive take away it's will to submit, there's no more dominance, because there's no-one left to dominate.

JJ

Its will to submit? My my...

By the same token, if the dominant doesn't choose to accept the submissive's submission, where is your D/s relationship then. No where! That's why I dissent when I hear a sub-centric perspective of D/s.

[DJade]

I guess I just have to put in a dissenting opinion.

The submissive cedes power and control to the dominant, (and the dominant takes it,) because it is mutually beneficial to do so.

Just because the sub can take it back, in no way changes the fact that for that period of time, the dominant is the wielder of the power.

My control is not an illusion. If you insist that it is, then the submission that goes with it is even more illusory. In which case, there is no gift at all because it has no value.

I was out of town for 3 days or I would have answered before this. Your first 2 sentences are not anything I originally negated. As far as control being an illusion, what I actually said was that after the control has been given to the dominant, love continues to develop, cementing the control into the hands of the dominant. It is at this point that the control becomes more powerful.

Do I have control of my sub? Yes. Is it, in this case, an illusion? No. Can he rip it away? Yes. Will he? No. Why not? Because he loves me. And because I am able to wield my control in such a way that he both feels and understands my power and respects it. He is a submissive, my submissive. He counts on that. He needs that. And he surrenders to that. But we both have control. My control is not absolute. That is where the illusion comes in.