The Church orders Wives to Submit to their Husbands

[IAN 2411]

I am a Christian but not by choice,

This line intrigues me. Are you being held captive in a church?
But in all seriousness, if this is not your choice, what would your choice be?

I suppose that was the wrong way to say things, I was Christened Church of England Christian.
I have never changed my religion, but I have grown out of it, I am not a firm believer, I have beliefs but they are more Pagan,
and have more to do with the old Gods and nature. No Christianity is not my choice, because that was taken away at birth.

Regards ian 2411

[Thorne]

I suppose that was the wrong way to say things, I was Christened Church of England Christian.
I have never changed my religion, but I have grown out of it, I am not a firm believer, I have beliefs but they are more Pagan,
and have more to do with the old Gods and nature. No Christianity is not my choice, because that was taken away at birth.

Regards ian 2411

It sounds to me like you have, indeed, made a choice. Your belief system has diverged from the Christian church by your choice, has it not? Whether or not you were baptized into the Church of England shouldn't have any bearing on that choice. It may be that you have not yet shaken off the teachings of that Church. I can understand this, as I still find myself struggling against my Catholic training. But I would think that once one decides to abandon one path in favor of another, he has made a choice and severed the ties which bound him.

Out of curiosity, if you were filling out some form of paperwork which asked you to list you religion, what would you put down? I only ask because of my own experiences. It took me a long time before I felt comfortable writing "none" instead of "Catholic". And I could certainly understand if you were reluctant to put down "Pagan".

And please understand that I'm not trying to ridicule or belittle you. I'm truly stunned by the idea that you would consider yourself to have no choice in your religion simply because of an accident of birth.

[thir]

Out of curiosity, if you were filling out some form of paperwork which asked you to list you religion, what would you put down? I only ask because of my own experiences. It took me a long time before I felt comfortable writing "none" instead of "Catholic". And I could certainly understand if you were reluctant to put down "Pagan".

Why would putting down "pagan" be a problem?

[Thorne]

Why would putting down "pagan" be a problem?

It wouldn't be a problem for me, but if, for example, you were applying for a job it might present a problem. Even though employers are not supposed to discriminate based on religious convictions, some still do. In South Carolina, some employers are devout Baptists and would be unlikely to offer a job to someone who identified themselves as a pagan, or an atheist, or Jewish, or Muslim. Or even Catholic! I once had a woman refuse to even rent me a room because I told her I was not religious. If I'd said I was a Pagan, or Satanist, I'm quite sure she would have called the police.

[thir]

Why would putting down "pagan" be a problem?

It wouldn't be a problem for me, but if, for example, you were applying for a job it might present a problem. Even though employers are not supposed to discriminate based on religious convictions, some still do. In South Carolina, some employers are devout Baptists and would be unlikely to offer a job to someone who identified themselves as a pagan, or an atheist, or Jewish, or Muslim. Or even Catholic! I once had a woman refuse to even rent me a room because I told her I was not religious. If I'd said I was a Pagan, or Satanist, I'm quite sure she would have called the police.

I do not quite understand. Why would a working place be interested in your religion in the first place? Unles there were special circumstances.
If there is freedom of religion, why even ask???

[Thorne]

I do not quite understand. Why would a working place be interested in your religion in the first place? Unles there were special circumstances.
If there is freedom of religion, why even ask???

Legally they shouldn't ask. Many get around this by putting the question on applications, but saying you don't have to answer. The same applies to questions of race. You don't have to answer. But there's a possibility that you might not get considered for the job without answering. And I had one case where, after filling out an application without any questions of religion, the interviewer made it one of the first questions he asked. When I questioned his reason for asking he admitted that he wouldn't hire non-Baptists! When I said that was illegal, his only response was, "They have to prove it, first." Interview over!

[leo9]

When I questioned his reason for asking he admitted that he wouldn't hire non-Baptists! When I said that was illegal, his only response was, "They have to prove it, first." Interview over!

Next time, wear a wire.

[MMI]

You can love someone and not want to "submit" to them. If forced to, or placed within circumstances that create the necessity for someone to be under another's authority or control would then be subjection. If he is asking them to submit, then it would be submission, should they choose to do so - but if they were not naturally submissive to begin with it is highly unlikely that the marriage will be a happy one while the wife is "trying" to be submissive.

Submission (even if it is willingly attempted at the request of another) can turn into subjection if one of the parties involved ends up unhappy with the arrangement.

If Oden wanted wives to be subjugated, wouldn't his sermon been along the lines of, Men, oppress your women?

Legally they shouldn't ask. Many get around this by putting the question on applications, but saying you don't have to answer. The same applies to questions of race. You don't have to answer. But there's a possibility that you might not get considered for the job without answering. And I had one case where, after filling out an application without any questions of religion, the interviewer made it one of the first questions he asked. When I questioned his reason for asking he admitted that he wouldn't hire non-Baptists! When I said that was illegal, his only response was, "They have to prove it, first." Interview over!

Possibly, so that, in case of need, a clergyman of the appropriate denomination can be summoned.

[thir]

Legally they shouldn't ask. Many get around this by putting the question on applications, but saying you don't have to answer. The same applies to questions of race. You don't have to answer. But there's a possibility that you might not get considered for the job without answering. And I had one case where, after filling out an application without any questions of religion, the interviewer made it one of the first questions he asked. When I questioned his reason for asking he admitted that he wouldn't hire non-Baptists! When I said that was illegal, his only response was, "They have to prove it, first." Interview over!

I am still somewhat confused by all this, as I cannot see why what you do in your free time or who you pray to (if anybody) makes you a better or worse dentist or carpenter. (The 'you' being generic of course).

Perhaps because, as I mentioned on the other thread, I do come from a rather non-religious back-ground. Makes my head spin!