Do people 'deserve' universal health care?

[steelish]

Emplementing a groundbreaking universal health care program like no other in the world; under governmental direction or otherwise, is no different than establishing and maintaining a super power level capable military with no rival or for that matter going to the freaking moon- when you get down to the brass tacks, its just a matter of organization and planning and good ole american ingenuity if we set our minds to the task!

As for weather or not the governement runs it or its made private: American government is run by americans after all is it not?

Ergo just like with other American endeavors the results will be as good as the people doing it insist it to be!

Or are you who are so against it saying that we as Americans (who btw invented a government like no other before it) can't do it, and do it right?

That we have reached our limits as a people when it comes to getting a job done, or finding a better inovation to employ?

Isnt it about time we stopped being complacent and made our government work for us in an area that is just as mutually benificial for us as Americans as the Military is for a change?

Wow, seems you've changed your stance on this issue since this thread first started.

The real issue really isn't whether or not we as Americans are capable of implementing a National Health Care Program. The issue is that there are people in power right now that have been in their respective political positions so long that they are out of touch with the American people. AND many of the people in power seem to have a "parental" attitude towards American citizens. If anyone truly believes that the bill won't be used as leverage to instill further restrictions on Americans, they're deluding themselves.

I have no qualms with Health Care Reform. What I do have issues with is the bargaining behind closed doors, the shady deals, the bald-faced lies told to the faces of the American public as they watch speeches on TV. I'm sick of the long-winded speeches with sad-faced children and/or people in lab coats standing behind Obama while he speaks...only to find out through investigation that it's all staged and the lab-coated people were paid to stand there and the sad-faced children are being exploited and the entire story is not being told.

Obama recently had a little boy speak. The boy told of his mother who died because she didn't have health care. It led people to believe that she was denied care. It was an "untruth" because the entire story wasn't told. It turns out this little boy's name is Marcelas. His mother worked for a Jack in the Box and yes, lost her job and therefore her healthcare benefits. She did die. HOWEVER, this mother refused to go to the doctor until it got so bad she ended up in the hospital...and guess what? She got treated WITHOUT HEALTHCARE. Not only that, but she spent weeks in the hospital until she was well enough to go home. She lived for another THREE YEARS. Each time she got sick again, she went back and got treated. Unfortunately, it was terminal and yes, she did die of it...but then, so would someone who had healthcare.

How about the story of a young 22 year old man who was in the hospital in England (National Health Care there) he had been a perfectly healthy kid for a long time, then has this weird thing happen to him, has to take this medication in the hospital, he's really, really thirsty. He gets a little belligerent because he's in the hospital, he's thirsty and he hasn't been given his medication. And at first he's saying, "I need my medication, you guys have to give me my medication". The nurses don't give him the medication. And then he gets wildly thirsty. He calls for help. He actually calls 911. The police come. The police talk to the nurses and the nurses are like, "no, he's crazy". The police leave. Mom comes. She's screaming for help because her son is in total dehydration. The doctor says, "Oh, you're crazy." Finally another doctor comes in, pushes all the alarms. They try to save the kid from dehydration. Nothing. Do you know who gets counseling in the end? Not the mother. The mother doesn't get counseling. The nurses get counseling. The nurses should go to jail.

See, this is what happens. When you have universal healthcare, there is nobody ‑‑ who are you going to run to? Who are you going to run to? Your attorney? Who are you going to sue? The government? Excuse me? Who are you going to sue? Where are you going to go? You have no competition anymore.

[denuseri]

I have not changed my stance one bit. Here is a copy of post#25 where I first entered the thread, back when it was still on topic as opposed to being focused on US health care alone.

Quoted here verbatum for ya:

"As a former med/surg floor nurse I have seen first hand our own proplems with health care and heard about different issues in systems some of my peers were much more familuar with.

Most of which were here in the states practicing medicine, but many were from countires other than the United States such as Canada, The Phillipines, England, and Mexico in paticular.

We had in our few off hours, and somtimes while charting, many many conversations about this topic.

The only conclussion we could ever mutually agree too was:

That regardless of how the system was set up, or which system was used in our respected countries of origin, (socialist, captitailist, comunist what have you) it basically had a lot about it that sucked.

I have heard and seen the insurance companies and lawyers ruin what was the best health care system in the world for a while. I have heard how other systems are so good on the news etc etc, I have however never heard that from my fellow nurses that came from those systems.

Am I for universial health care?

Yes. I wish we could help everyone that ever got sick or needed medical attention with the best possible care accross the board.

Do I see it happening anytime soon if ever?

Unfortunately no.

It is sad, but I believe too many will stand in it's way, not just individuals that fear the governements involvement in thier medical system, but also the governments themselves etc etc, it would litterally require a world wide con-census to provide heath care of a certian standard for all equally regardless of economic provision. Fully cooperating consensus mind you. Something we cant even get a few people to agree to on an internet chat site, let alone the world.

In fact my only hypotheisis as for how this would possibly work would be through the organiazation of a seperate opererating entity that is divorced from societal influeneces that all governements and people submit thier authority too regarding the consideration of rescources and disposition of medical dispensation including legality of medical issues and cost etc etc,.

I sadly wonder if it will ever be within our organzational abilities as a species to preform such a task.

The ideal of universal health care is a grande utopian ideal to strive for, but not yet within our grasp in a practical sence to achieve at this time."

Where as my current posts have for the most part been about US health care and how to improve it.

I seriously doubt we will "actually" change it much here in the states eaither and if we do it will most likely be f'd up, becuase our current political leaders like most of thier predessors in recent history have proven that they are not in the slightest really interested in serving "we the people" so much as they are in serving themselves.

[steelish]

Sorry denu...I must have mis-read your earlier posts because I was under the impression that you against government involvement.


As to the lying and "purchased votes" for this bill...

Some of the backroom deals include:
1. The “Louisiana Purchase”: a $300 million special deal for Louisiana. [Bill page 428]
2. “Gator Aid”: a provision that protects Florida seniors from Medicare cuts. Seniors in all 49 other states will see benefits cut under this bill. [Page 878]
3. Increased Medicaid payments to Hawaii—a benefit that will be paid for by the other 49 states. [Page 2132]
4. Special Medicare coverage for the people of Libby, MT. That’s right, a special provision for the people of one town. [Page 2222]
5. $100 million to construct a hospital in Connecticut. [Page 2354]
6. An exemption from new taxes for ONE Michigan insurance company. [Page 2394]

AND...included in the bill is Student Loans. Once the bill passes, you will no longer be able to get a private loan to pay for college. You will only be able to get your loan from the government. Logic dictates that the government will specify which degree you will be pursuing.


One of the biggest issues is that everyone's idea of what this Healthcare program will be like is different from the next person's. People on the left accuse people on the right of being cold-hearted when nothing could be further from the truth. A Universal Health Care Program run by honest, forthright people who truly want nothing but the best for everyone who needs such a program would be wonderful. The way they are going about trying to get this passed, with no regards to the opposition...no transparency, back door dealing, strong-arming, back-stabbing and name-calling...I find it hard to believe that they have the poor citizens health and well-being foremost in their minds.

[Lion]

AND...included in the bill is Student Loans. Once the bill passes, you will no longer be able to get a private loan to pay for college. You will only be able to get your loan from the government. Logic dictates that the government will specify which degree you will be pursuing.

I don't know what student loans have to do with health care, so I'm quite surprised that it's in there.

But I don't understand your connection between government student loans and the government specifying your degree.

In Ontario, it's quite rare, almost unheard of that a student gets a loan from some place other the the government student loan centre. And there is no restriction on the degree you are in.

Unless it's different down there.

[steelish]

I don't know what student loans have to do with health care, so I'm quite surprised that it's in there.

But I don't understand your connection between government student loans and the government specifying your degree.

In Ontario, it's quite rare, almost unheard of that a student gets a loan from some place other the the government student loan centre. And there is no restriction on the degree you are in.

Unless it's different down there.

Because they're already "hinting" that it will happen. In the Student Loan portion of the plan, if the student goes into government service for a period of ten years following graduation, they don't have to pay back anything. Upon receiving the loan, the government is going to "explain" to the student which fields of study would be helpful for the ten year government service "plan".

[Lion]

How are they "Hinting"?

If the student works in a field for the government that is required, they get free education. Otherwise they have to pay back the loan. Do private loans get forgiven for any reason? If not, I don't see anything wrong with this plan. If students are getting their loans, and some, if they go into a field that the government requires and fulfills their contract are debt free. Which sounds similar to the type of government assistance when it comes to military scholarships, where I believe you have to serve a minimum number of years, and in return, get a free undergrad education.

That being said, I'm trying to figure out what this has to do with healthcare. Going to look it up.

[denuseri]

Sorry denu...I must have mis-read your earlier posts because I was under the impression that you against government involvement.

Nope just against "bad" government involvment. lol

[steelish]

That being said, I'm trying to figure out what this has to do with healthcare. Going to look it up.

Here's a story on it.

[Lion]

Personal opinion asides, what results do people expect from tomorrow?

[steelish]

Expect? What I would EXPECT is for the politicians to listen to the people and stop the current bill and start from scratch with a more comprehensive bill....and to have TRANSPARENCY while doing so.

Is anyone truly aware of the things coming out of the mouths of the politicians and governmental groups?

Nancy Pelosi said: "We won that fight, and once we kick through this door, there'll be more legislation to follow."

SEN. TOM HARKIN, D-IOWA: As I said before, this bill is not complete. I've used the analogy of a starter home in which we can add additions and enhancements as we go into the future. But like every right that we've ever passed the American people, we revisit it later on to enhance and build on those rights and we will do that here surely.

Since when is it Congress' job to pass us rights. Inalienable rights don't come from Congress!

This is what Joe Biden said about insurance companies:

VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: Some of them I say they say, well, Joe, look, man, I mean, you know, you guys haven't messaged this very well. And, you know, this thing has gone on so long, I don't know. And my response is: Hey, man, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I'm telling you: You know, pre-existing, they're going to be covered. You know we're going to control the insurance companies.

So they said this was their plan the whole time:

CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Because of some of the, you know, rules about reconciliation, that you actually have to include the student aid bill with the health care bill. This was the plan all along. When the budget came out for 2010, instructions were given for reconciliation for both health care and for student loans.

Hmmm...they were clearly lying and they were clearly trying to cloud the facts:

SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE NANCY PELOSI, D-CALIF.: We have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.

Excuse me??? What? That is her response? Is that the way it is with all bills? Pass it so we can see what is in it?

BTW - Who's been creating the fog?

What about when the president said this to Bret Baier:

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Now, you keep on repeating the notion that it's one-sixth of the economy. Yes, it's one-sixth of the economy, but we're not transforming one-sixth of the economy all in one fell swoop.

huh? Oh, well it will be transformed slowly. How do I know this? Compare this week's statement with what he said in 2007:

THEN-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE BARACK OBAMA: It is my belief that not just politically but also economically, it's better for us to start getting a system in place — a universal health care system — signed into law by the end of my first term as president and build off that system to further — to make it more rational — by the way, Canada did not start off immediately with a single-payer system. They had a similar transition step.

Transitioning a system is a very difficult and costly and lengthy enterprise. It's not like you could turn on a switch and you go from one system to another.

[DuncanONeil]

I dont see anyone saying they dont desire to have enough money to where they are not living on the cusp of homelessness anywhere.

Take one quarter of whats spent on maintaining american imperial claims from the military budget and you have health care pretty much covered.

Nope!!

[DuncanONeil]

Insurers do not decide treatment! The merely agree to pay or not pay. The decision is yours not theirs!

I'm saying that deciding that medical care that is a matter of life and death should belong in the private for profit industry is what is wrong. Denial of life-saving treatment on the basis of affordability is awkward, and its a symptom of having life-saving medical care being handled by a private insurance industry rather than a government plan.

I think profit is actually a wonderful thing, I've run businesses before and I sold a decent start-up, and every business I got into was profitable. But I would not run a business that profited by denying individuals things I consider basic human rights. I would also like to live in a country where things that were basic human rights were not denied to people.

As for not a lot of profit for the industry, they rank the industry as a sector, which includes all of the various non-profits that attempted to provide services to those who couldn't otherwise get them, and went bankrupt doing so.

Note that you are putting words in my mouth here. The equivalent counterargument would be me claiming you value profit so much you'd sacrifice every moral, belief, relative, ideal and value you have all in the name of the almighty dollar. I don't think that is the case about you, and you shouldn't think the fact that I don't believe in putting profit ahead of human rights means that I think profit is bad.

[DuncanONeil]

Social Security is demanding payment on the "IOUs" Congress replaced all of the cash they found burning a hole in their pocket for the last 30+ years!

Obama's plan costs $1 trillion a year for the first 10 years ONLY. Not only that, but the tax increases to pay for it kick in immediately, yet no benefits are available for at least two more years. Once the benefits kick in, and the operating costs exceed what the federal government has collected from the citizens, taxes will be raised yet again, funding to education, medicare, medicaid, social security and any other government program will be cut to compensate.

300 million people are eventually going to be covered by the SAME insurer. And this insurer is the same "entity" that runs the Postal Service (which is in shambles), social security (which is broke), medicare (which is faltering), medicaid (which is also having difficulty), etc. And we're supposed to feel confident in their abilities????

[DuncanONeil]

"Americans" do not want Obamacare!!!!

Emplementing a groundbreaking universal health care program like no other in the world; under governmental direction or otherwise, is no different than establishing and maintaining a super power level capable military with no rival or for that matter going to the freaking moon- when you get down to the brass tacks, its just a matter of organization and planning and good ole american ingenuity if we set our minds to the task!

As for weather or not the governement runs it or its made private: American government is run by americans after all is it not?

Ergo just like with other American endeavors the results will be as good as the people doing it insist it to be!

Or are you who are so against it saying that we as Americans (who btw invented a government like no other before it) can't do it, and do it right?

That we have reached our limits as a people when it comes to getting a job done, or finding a better inovation to employ?

Isnt it about time we stopped being complacent and made our government work for us in an area that is just as mutually benificial for us as Americans as the Military is for a change?

[DuncanONeil]

The difference is that the only source of monies you will have in the future is the Government and they are, essentially, going to tell you what course of study you must pursue. This is no way comparable to the Military scholarship, which requires input from the member. When you leave service you choose your course of study. To be comparable it would be like the Army telling a soldier he has to use his funds to study metalurgy and take a job at Oshkosh after he leaves the service.

How are they "Hinting"?

If the student works in a field for the government that is required, they get free education. Otherwise they have to pay back the loan. Do private loans get forgiven for any reason? If not, I don't see anything wrong with this plan. If students are getting their loans, and some, if they go into a field that the government requires and fulfills their contract are debt free. Which sounds similar to the type of government assistance when it comes to military scholarships, where I believe you have to serve a minimum number of years, and in return, get a free undergrad education.

That being said, I'm trying to figure out what this has to do with healthcare. Going to look it up.

[DuncanONeil]

Personal opinion asides, what results do people expect from tomorrow?

What I hope for and what I expect is two different things.
i would hope that they take to heart what we as a nation have been telling them. I am afraid they will not be able to remove their royal robes and crowns to see that they are not the Nobles they think they are.

Not to mention the illegalities they will have committed!

[SadisticNature]

"Americans" do not want Obamacare!!!!

So basically if someone disagrees with your statement they are being unamerican, even if they happen to be an American Citizen who wants "Obamacare". I think that's the most anti-democracy statement I've heard in a long long time.

[SadisticNature]

Why is it wrong to have upfront conditions for financial aid? You don't seem to have a problem with various other things with upfront conditions?

If you want to study some useless field that does nothing towards getting you a job and becoming a contributing, productive member of society why should the government help pay for your education?

The government giving financial aid for in demand fields to ensure people become productive members of society and generate tax revenues that help pay for these programs down the road.

This is not: We are going to give you a loan then at some future date tell you what to do with it. This is we are going to give you a loan conditional on X,Y and Z and tell you what X,Y and Z are up front. If you don't like it don't take the loan.

The difference is that the only source of monies you will have in the future is the Government and they are, essentially, going to tell you what course of study you must pursue. This is no way comparable to the Military scholarship, which requires input from the member. When you leave service you choose your course of study. To be comparable it would be like the Army telling a soldier he has to use his funds to study metalurgy and take a job at Oshkosh after he leaves the service.

[SadisticNature]

Except that if you buy insurance in advance to protect against things you know you won't be able to pay and then they refuse payment on that treatment they are actually refusing you treatment. You made the decision to have these procedures available to you if you needed them even though you couldn't afford the actual procedure, and then had that taken away by a refusal to pay.

Insurers do not decide treatment! The merely agree to pay or not pay. The decision is yours not theirs!

[Torq]

And yet ANOTHER good thread RUINED, with personal attacks in lieu of

STAYING ON TOPIC!!!

Next time this happens ALL involved WILL BE BANNED !!!!!!

PERIOD!!!

T